I Have a Challenge.

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Z

zackabba

Guest
#1
My challenge is this:

Disprove the deity of Christ to me.
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#3
Distinctive....your up ;)
We'll just see who's brave enough to take up this challenge. :)

One thing to think about (for whoever reads this).


If you are worshiping Jesus, and if He does not have the nature of deity, then you're committing idolatry.
 
Mar 2, 2010
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#4
Distinctive....your up ;)
Haha. Do you think he saw my posts and decided to ask?

Well here is what I would have to say- NOBODY on CC is denying the humanity of Christ, so I think that the burden of proof falls on those who want to go beyond that.

But here is a very simplistic answer:

He was born. He was a man. He died. He said that the power he displayed was not his. He said that he did everything according to the will of someone besides himself. He clearly did not want to go through with the suffering and crucifixion, but said "not my will but yours be done"- i.e. in his flesh his will was opposed to God's will; He was obedient, but it went against his own desires. He was not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent (I dont' entirely agree with these descriptions of God, but since most people on here do I put it down). He prayed to and worshipped God. He called God "My God".

Pretty much anything that you would say God is Jesus was not, other than sinless. Jesus was not eternal, self-existing, omni-anything, sovereign, immutable, invisible, spirit.

It's like after Jesus all of the categories for "God" were rewritten to accomodate him.
 
Mar 2, 2010
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#5
We'll just see who's brave enough to take up this challenge. :)

One thing to think about (for whoever reads this).


If you are worshiping Jesus, and if He does not have the nature of deity, then you're committing idolatry.
Actually, that is not necessarily true. One can worship another without worshipping them AS GOD. To worship comes from the Hebrew and Greek words that simply mean to prostrate or bow, which was done before God, kings, judges, magistrates and others, including family leaders and so forth. Worship means admitting that you are less than the one to whom worship is given, but this can be in a limited sense or in a full sense. In a limited sense I am "less" than the president, a judge, senator, or my father. If you are willing to do some research you will see that Jews of the second temple period understood the difference between worshipping humans in their capacites of authority and worshipping God as God.
 
H

hannahheavenheadin

Guest
#6
Absolutely UMPOSSIBLE no matter what you say!
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#7
Actually, that is not necessarily true. One can worship another without worshipping them AS GOD. To worship comes from the Hebrew and Greek words that simply mean to prostrate or bow, which was done before God, kings, judges, magistrates and others, including family leaders and so forth. Worship means admitting that you are less than the one to whom worship is given, but this can be in a limited sense or in a full sense. In a limited sense I am "less" than the president, a judge, senator, or my father. If you are willing to do some research you will see that Jews of the second temple period understood the difference between worshipping humans in their capacites of authority and worshipping God as God.
So Jesus wasn't being worshiped on the same level as God in Revelation 5?
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#8
Haha. Do you think he saw my posts and decided to ask?

Well here is what I would have to say- NOBODY on CC is denying the humanity of Christ, so I think that the burden of proof falls on those who want to go beyond that.

But here is a very simplistic answer:

He was born. He was a man. He died. He said that the power he displayed was not his. He said that he did everything according to the will of someone besides himself. He clearly did not want to go through with the suffering and crucifixion, but said "not my will but yours be done"- i.e. in his flesh his will was opposed to God's will; He was obedient, but it went against his own desires. He was not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent (I dont' entirely agree with these descriptions of God, but since most people on here do I put it down). He prayed to and worshipped God. He called God "My God".

Pretty much anything that you would say God is Jesus was not, other than sinless. Jesus was not eternal, self-existing, omni-anything, sovereign, immutable, invisible, spirit.

It's like after Jesus all of the categories for "God" were rewritten to accomodate him.
(I haven't seen your posts by the way. I wanted to ask this question earlier but didn't have the chance)

1. Yes, He was born.

2. Yes, He was a man.

3. Yes, He died.

4. Yes, His power came from His Father and the Holy Spirit.

5. To be perfect, He had to be perfectly obedient to His Father. So He did His will.

6. Yes, God was and still is His God. How does that disprove that He has a nature of deity? Because someone is over you in authority doesn't mean you aren't equal to them.
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#9
Interpret Philippians 2:5-11 for me, verse-by-verse.
 
Mar 2, 2010
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#10
So Jesus wasn't being worshiped on the same level as God in Revelation 5?
Notice that when the 4 living creatures and 24 elders speak they distinguish between the Lamb and God, even speaking directly to the Lamb and saying OUR God.
 
Mar 2, 2010
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#11
(I haven't seen your posts by the way. I wanted to ask this question earlier but didn't have the chance)

1. Yes, He was born.

2. Yes, He was a man.

3. Yes, He died.

4. Yes, His power came from His Father and the Holy Spirit.

5. To be perfect, He had to be perfectly obedient to His Father. So He did His will.

6. Yes, God was and still is His God. How does that disprove that He has a nature of deity? Because someone is over you in authority doesn't mean you aren't equal to them.
Sure, it dosen't define your relationship as persons, but it does mean that the other person is greater than you in authority.
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#12
Notice that when the 4 living creatures and 24 elders speak they distinguish between the Lamb and God, even speaking directly to the Lamb and saying OUR God.
So how does that limit the Lamb from being their God as well?
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#14
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”


(Revelation 5:13)
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#15
The Father is designated as God in the NT more than Jesus.

The Son is designated as Lord in the NT more than the Father.


Does this make the Father not our "Only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?"
 

GOD_IS_LOVE

Senior Member
Mar 16, 2009
306
4
18
#16
Jesus was not eternal, self-existing, omni-anything, sovereign, immutable, invisible, spirit.
"Jesus was not eternal"

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. John 1

"Jesus was not self-existing"

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life."

I could go on but I'll stop here.

"You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God." Mt 22:29
May God give you light!
 
Mar 2, 2010
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#17
Interpret Philippians 2:5-11 for me, verse-by-verse.
Have the same attitude that Christ had, who, even though he was of the same outward appearance as God (power, wisdom, sinlessness, etc) did not consider grasping for equality with God (compare to Adam, who wanted to "be like God"), but made himself nothing, taking on the outward appearance of a servant, making himself in human likeness, and being found in form of man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross. For this reason God highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above ever name.

Although Jesus was exercising God's power and authority and although he had never sinned, Jesus was not so conceited that he wanted to claim equality with God. Rather, in spite of this power and authority, he humbled himself and became the servant of (sinful) humankind and was obedient to God even to the point of death. For his perfect obedience God exalted him.

Now you tell me- If God exalts him for his obedience and it is from God that he receives the name, is he truly God's equal?
 
Mar 2, 2010
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#18
"Jesus was not eternal"

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. John 1

"Jesus was not self-existing"

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life."

I could go on but I'll stop here.

"You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God." Mt 22:29
May God give you light!
Find something other than the gospel of John that says that.
 
Mar 2, 2010
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#20
Why? Isn't the gospel of John in the Bible...?
And wasn't the Bible canon "recognized" by a group of men who already believed that Jesus was God and were therefore inclined to accept it on that basis. They almost didn't because they thought it went TOO far and may give credibility to those who were denying Jesus' HUMANITY.