I Have a Challenge.

[AnandaHya]

My challenge is this:

Disprove the deity of Christ to me.

Zackabba I like that you stand in defense of the Gospel but do you think you are stronger then the archangel Michael?

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

don't let pride become a stumbling block only God has the power to cast out demons, He answers prayers but we are not called to argue with the powers of darkness but firmly rebuke them in the Lord's name and allow God to take care of it. we continue to state and stand upon God's words' and His truth. if others chose to be deceived and chase after lies it is their choice. May God have mercy upon their soul.

 

[distinctiveministry]

translation: I don't like what certain books says so I'm going to pick and chose scripture and build in my mind a stronghold that allows me to be comfortable with my own version of God so that I can worship my idol in peace. why don't you join me in disregarding scripture because it doesn't fit my perceptions of truth? oh just ignore the pesky scriptures like this one.....

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New King James Version (NKJV).
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

.

sssss.... Did God really Say that? surely you won't died.....szzsssss.......


sorry you were saying? I can't hear past the cymbals clanging...

I would respond if you weren't being such an insufferable jerk. Instead I'll wait to see if anyone else calls you out or if your behavior is acceptable because you hold to the same positions as they.

 

[AnandaHya]

I would respond if you weren't being such an insufferable jerk. Instead I'll wait to see if anyone else calls you out or if your behavior is acceptable because you hold to the same positions as they.

I would apologize if you weren't throwing away parts of the Bible you didn't like in order to establish something that goes against God's words.

so what is the purpose of denying the divinity of Jesus?

Do you think humans can become manifested Sons of God like who you want to believe Jesus was in this life?

so what do you believe is the doctrine of salvation? what is the true gospel message that Jesus and His disciples taught?

why do you come to a site with the mentality of you versus "them"? who would "them" be?

nevermind, I'll just go read my Bible...

Luke 13:27-29
New King James Version (NKJV)
27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

2 Peter 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber.

1 Timothy 4

The Great Apostasy

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.1 Timothy 4

Hebrews 13
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about[c] with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. .

 

[distinctiveministry]

I would apologize if you weren't throwing away parts of the Bible you didn't like in order to establish something that goes against God's words.

so what is the purpose of denying the divinity of Jesus?

Do you think humans can become manifested Sons of God like who you want to believe Jesus was in this life?

so what do you believe is the doctrine of salvation? what is the true gospel message that Jesus and His disciples taught?

why do you come to a site with the mentality of you versus "them"? who would "them" be?

I question not whether scripture is inspired, but whether certain books are scripture. After all, if a book claims to be written by a certain author who was dead almost 100 years before said book was written (according to ALL historical evidence), is it not fair to question? I don't reject any book on the basis of its content.

There is no "purpose" to denying Jesus' divinity- I'm merely stating what I think scripture actually teaches.

Salvation- alienated and hostile humans reconciled to a gracious and forgiving God through the cross of Christ.
The Gospel- God's kingdom is open to ALL who repent toward God, not to Jews only or "righteous" people only.

I don't have a me vs them mentality, I just wondered if anyone else would call you out for your horrible behavior, or if everyone would turn a blind eye to it just because they agree with your doctrine.

 

[AnandaHya]

oh people should look at this thread about the rules governing the site in case they haven't yet....

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...t-vibrant-heated-discussions-please-read.html

August 31st, 2009


1still_waters Offline
Administrator

Join Date: May 19th, 2006
Posts: 1,903
Rep Power: 10

When you have concerns about vibrant and heated discussions, please read this.
We understand some users are concerned about the vibrant and passionate debates and discussions that happen in this part of the forum. We understand that to some this may not look very Christian.

There is nothing wrong with discussion that is vibrant or passionate. So please don't be turned off by that.

On the other hand, we will step in if we see any of these.....

1. Blatant personal attacks. (This means actually attacking someone. It doesn't mean when someone fails to believe something you believe.)
2. Blatant false teachings against the essentials of our faith. (We'll allow some users for a time to discuss issues that are against the faith, but if time passes and they keep it up, they will be dealt with.)
3.Perverse talk and swearing.

If you see any of the things listed above, please report them, using the report thread link. But please don't report something if it's just an opinion you don't agree with. That kind of takes up time some of us could be giving to other areas of concern on the site.

Also, if you're going to report something to a moderator, please be sure you can specifically show where the offense is located and please make sure it fits within the list of things we step in for. It's very helpful for us if you just click the report post link.

When you contact us in the room about a post, we usually have no idea where to look to begin with and we don't have the time to read an entire thread to find the post that is offensive. The best thing you can do is just use the report thread link.

So please don't report things to us just because someone said something you disagree with and it makes you mad. Yet don't be hesitant to report something that fits the list of blatant offenses we should step in and address.

Thanks

-END-

I guess I assumed everyone knew what the essentials are...

Here are examples of the essentials...
(Thise are here to give a general idea of what is essential to the faith, it's not a comprehensive doctrinal statement from this site.)

1. The deity of Jesus.
2. The inspiration and authority of the Bible as found in the 66 books of the Bible.
3. Faith in the crucixition, death and resurrection of Jesus is the only way to reconcile you to relationship with God.
4. Jesus is coming back again!
5. Believers should seek to live for God and not the world.

 

[AnandaHya]

translation: I don't like what certain books says so I'm going to pick and chose scripture and build in my mind a stronghold that allows me to be comfortable with my own version of God so that I can worship my idol in peace. why don't you join me in disregarding scripture because it doesn't fit my perceptions of truth? oh just ignore the pesky scriptures like this one.....

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New King James Version (NKJV).
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

.

sssss.... Did God really Say that? surely you won't died.....szzsssss.......


sorry you were saying? I can't hear past the cymbals clanging...

so what in this statement don't you agree with? if my translation of your stance is wrong you can feel free to correct my mistaken impression of you and your words.

I just expressed how I viewed your words and how they came across and who they reminded me of.

 

[distinctiveministry]

so what in this statement don't you agree with? if my translation of your stance is wrong you can feel free to correct my mistaken impression of you and your words.

I just expressed how I viewed your words and how they came across and who they reminded me of.

To date I have been tolerated by the mods because I treat people respectfully and discuss topics openly and with fairness. I acknowledge that my views are not mainstream and don't criticize people who disagree with me. I state my views, defend them as I see fit, but I'm not pushing my views on others- just answering questions when asked and sharing my thoughts where relevant.

You, on the other hand, may have the "right doctrine" but you treat me with disrespect. It is easier to change the mind than to change the heart.

 

[zackabba]

Do I believe the Bible you hold in your hands is inspired scripture? No. I believe most of it is, but I have doubts about some books like John. Even the people who eventually "recognized" John and made it part of the canon had their doubts.

I do believe God guided us to have 27 books in the New Testament that are inspired Scripture. I do also believe that John is inspired Scripture, and this is the first time I've ever heard that people had doubts about including it. (and I've listened to many debates on the Bible and read a little bit about Textual Criticism)

But I could see why, because the Gospel clearly presents the deity of Jesus.

But I guess that's fine. We don't have to use that Gospel, or any of the Gospels in fact (even though I believe all of them to be inspired).


I'm waiting for your response to my question about the verse in 1 Peter.



Grace and Love

 

[AnandaHya]

oh well, i guess we should just let the wolves devour the sheep in peace.

don't you dare to say anything about it. it might be RUDE!

people are not their ideas and God changes hearts not man's words.

listening to lies is not beneficial to anyone and I would rather to listen to God's truth...

2 Peter 2

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.[c]
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[d] from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[e] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”


I respect JESUS Christ as my Lord and savior, but you can talk to zack, he has a more "gentle" approach.. bye.

 

[zackabba]

Zackabba I like that you stand in defense of the Gospel but do you think you are stronger then the archangel Michael?

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

don't let pride become a stumbling block only God has the power to cast out demons, He answers prayers but we are not called to argue with the powers of darkness but firmly rebuke them in the Lord's name and allow God to take care of it. we continue to state and stand upon God's words' and His truth. if others chose to be deceived and chase after lies it is their choice. May God have mercy upon their soul.

Well I'm praying that through all of this I don't become prideful. You also pray for me, that I don't make others stumble through this.

Thank you

Grace and Love

 

[Grandpa]

To date I have been tolerated by the mods because I treat people respectfully and discuss topics openly and with fairness. I acknowledge that my views are not mainstream and don't criticize people who disagree with me. I state my views, defend them as I see fit, but I'm not pushing my views on others- just answering questions when asked and sharing my thoughts where relevant.

You, on the other hand, may have the "right doctrine" but you treat me with disrespect. It is easier to change the mind than to change the heart.

Don't you think God is omniscient? Don't you think He is omnipotent? The bible is what it is because God has given it to us just the way it is. If God had wanted parts of the bible taken out don't you think it is within His power to do so? Do you think God is purposely trying to mislead you with the gospel of John? Do you think God is purposely trying to mislead everyone else who believes the bible is the inspired Word of God? Do you think that the Good Shepherd would let that happen?


Do you think it odd to cast doubts upon God's Word, God's omniscience, and God's Goodness towards God's people and not be met with a little bit of resistance???

I wonder if you've thought of these things.

God Bless You

 

[distinctiveministry]

Don't you think God is omniscient? Don't you think He is omnipotent? The bible is what it is because God has given it to us just the way it is. If God had wanted parts of the bible taken out don't you think it is within His power to do so? Do you think God is purposely trying to mislead you with the gospel of John? Do you think God is purposely trying to mislead everyone else who believes the bible is the inspired Word of God? Do you think that the Good Shepherd would let that happen?


Do you think it odd to cast doubts upon God's Word, God's omniscience, and God's Goodness towards God's people and not be met with a little bit of resistance???

I wonder if you've thought of these things.

God Bless You

If the Bible had fallen out of the sky in its present form as a gift from God you would have valid points, but it didn't. Imperfect men using a very flawed process chose books based on their preconceived ideas and theological biases.
The obvious counterpoint to your argument is this: if God gave us a perfect text, then why did He not take care to preserve the perfect original text instead of allowing thousands of changes and errors to crop up among the thousands of manuscripts that must be sorted through in order to arrive at what is only our best educated "guess" as to the original? I'm not saying it is guesswork, since it isn't, but certainly there are a lot of educated decisions that had to be made in the process. There are THOUSANDS of manuscripts and NOT ONE of them is without a single error. Now you tell me that God gave us the Bible in its current form and preserves the 66 books as His perfect word but did not bother to preserve the actual text of each book in perfect form. It doesn't make sense.

 

[mpaper345]

The Bible says that in Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead in a bodily manifestation,and it pleased the Father that in Christ all fulness should dwell,and Christ has the Spirit without measure.

He is God manifest in the flesh,and that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

God reconciled sinful mankind back to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony,in which Christ has the fulness of God's attributes where the saints have partial attributes.

The Bible says that the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God,for God is an ominipresent Spirit.

The Bible says that God is in all and through all.

God's Spirit does not go around His creation but flows through His creation,but is not part of His creation for the Spirit and the physical world,matter,are separate.

God's Spirit flows through all creation and God is in everybody.In Christ,God manifest all His attributes.In the saints,God manifest partial attributes,and in the world,God manifest no attributes,but the ability to recognize there is a God and to repent.

Since Christ has the fulness of God's attributes,then Christ becomes the personal human body of God Himself,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.

This makes Jesus,God Himself personally showing us a human manifestation of Himself,which God glorified that human body and sits on the throne in heaven in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,which the Bible calls the throne,the throne of both God and the Lamb.

Jesus is therefore the visible relationship that God the Father,who is an invisible Spirit,will have with the saints for eternity.

Jesus is therefore God Himself in a visible manifestation and the only way the saints will see the invisible God.

Jesus is God with us.

Jesus is the Word,which means God revealing Himself personally to us,where the word of God,the Bible,is God revealing Himself to us by words written in a book.

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 Timothy 6:14-16).


Jesus is more than a visible God,or more than a man if someone thinks He lacks deity,for Jesus dwells in the light that no man can approach unto,whom no man can see and no man will ever see Jesus,testifying that Jesus is the invisible God who showed us a visible manifestation of Himself.


Jesus as the invisible God means that on that level the saints cannot approach unto the light that He as God dwells,and no man can see Jesus and no man will ever see Jesus.


We cannot see Jesus on the level as Him being the invisible God,but we can see Him on the level as Him being a visible manifestation,in which His human manifestation would be inferior to His deity.


We are like Jesus,human and God in harmony,but Jesus is the fulness of God's attributes and God's personal human body,where the saints have partial attributes and God's vessel to show the truth.

 

[zackabba]

The Bible says that in Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead in a bodily manifestation,and it pleased the Father that in Christ all fulness should dwell,and Christ has the Spirit without measure.

He is God manifest in the flesh,and that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

God reconciled sinful mankind back to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony,in which Christ has the fulness of God's attributes where the saints have partial attributes.

The Bible says that the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God,for God is an ominipresent Spirit.

The Bible says that God is in all and through all.

God's Spirit does not go around His creation but flows through His creation,but is not part of His creation for the Spirit and the physical world,matter,are separate.

God's Spirit flows through all creation and God is in everybody.In Christ,God manifest all His attributes.In the saints,God manifest partial attributes,and in the world,God manifest no attributes,but the ability to recognize there is a God and to repent.

Since Christ has the fulness of God's attributes,then Christ becomes the personal human body of God Himself,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.

This makes Jesus,God Himself personally showing us a human manifestation of Himself,which God glorified that human body and sits on the throne in heaven in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,which the Bible calls the throne,the throne of both God and the Lamb.

Jesus is therefore the visible relationship that God the Father,who is an invisible Spirit,will have with the saints for eternity.

Jesus is therefore God Himself in a visible manifestation and the only way the saints will see the invisible God.

Jesus is God with us.

Jesus is the Word,which means God revealing Himself personally to us,where the word of God,the Bible,is God revealing Himself to us by words written in a book.

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 Timothy 6:14-16).


Jesus is more than a visible God,or more than a man if someone thinks He lacks deity,for Jesus dwells in the light that no man can approach unto,whom no man can see and no man will ever see Jesus,testifying that Jesus is the invisible God who showed us a visible manifestation of Himself.


Jesus as the invisible God means that on that level the saints cannot approach unto the light that He as God dwells,and no man can see Jesus and no man will ever see Jesus.


We cannot see Jesus on the level as Him being the invisible God,but we can see Him on the level as Him being a visible manifestation,in which His human manifestation would be inferior to His deity.


We are like Jesus,human and God in harmony,but Jesus is the fulness of God's attributes and God's personal human body,where the saints have partial attributes and God's vessel to show the truth.

Yes, perfect. Amen.

...there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. (Colossians 3:11)


Grace and Love

 

[Grandpa]

If the Bible had fallen out of the sky in its present form as a gift from God you would have valid points, but it didn't. Imperfect men using a very flawed process chose books based on their preconceived ideas and theological biases.
The obvious counterpoint to your argument is this: if God gave us a perfect text, then why did He not take care to preserve the perfect original text instead of allowing thousands of changes and errors to crop up among the thousands of manuscripts that must be sorted through in order to arrive at what is only our best educated "guess" as to the original? I'm not saying it is guesswork, since it isn't, but certainly there are a lot of educated decisions that had to be made in the process. There are THOUSANDS of manuscripts and NOT ONE of them is without a single error. Now you tell me that God gave us the Bible in its current form and preserves the 66 books as His perfect word but did not bother to preserve the actual text of each book in perfect form. It doesn't make sense.

1 Corinthians 1:20-31

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Amen
God Bless You

 

[zackabba]

If the Bible had fallen out of the sky in its present form as a gift from God you would have valid points, but it didn't. Imperfect men using a very flawed process chose books based on their preconceived ideas and theological biases.
The obvious counterpoint to your argument is this: if God gave us a perfect text, then why did He not take care to preserve the perfect original text instead of allowing thousands of changes and errors to crop up among the thousands of manuscripts that must be sorted through in order to arrive at what is only our best educated "guess" as to the original? I'm not saying it is guesswork, since it isn't, but certainly there are a lot of educated decisions that had to be made in the process. There are THOUSANDS of manuscripts and NOT ONE of them is without a single error. Now you tell me that God gave us the Bible in its current form and preserves the 66 books as His perfect word but did not bother to preserve the actual text of each book in perfect form. It doesn't make sense.

I don't know why that would make you doubt the authenticity of the Bible.

These thousands of errors are mostly scribal errors (but of course New Testament scholars and textual critics like Bart Ehrman will try to cloud that up more than they should. In fact, I believe at one of the ends of his books he lists 10 verses that were most definitely not in the New Testament...and to anyone who has studied a little bit about the Bible, they don't surprise [for instance, 1 John 5:7, which is not found in the earliest manuscripts])

I believe God guided the hands of those who compiled the New Testament letters and Gospels together to form a Bible that has a foundation (in Christ) perfect for teaching, for doctrine, for faith, and even for rebuking.

If you don't believe this, then I could see why you would reject that Christ has the nature of deity.




Grace and Love