I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

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epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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THE DAY AFTER REMEMBRANCE DAY


images_q_tbn_ANd9_Gc_Q4_Xj8_Ff_Whx6_Hwq3_Xz_TZDFz_Ph7_x_Rg.jpg pope_pius_in_prayer.jpg

Hitler’s Plan to Kidnap the Pope


(Catalyst, 2007)
As soon as Italian dictator Benito Mussolini was ousted from power on July 25, 1943, Adolf Hitler began hatching a plan to kidnap Pope Pius XII and plunder the Vatican. Clearly, the Fuehrer thought, the “Jew-loving” pope had encouraged King Victor Emanuel II and some rival fascist leaders to overthrow his Italian puppet.

The following day Hitler called for an urgent meeting of his military leaders. They must liberate Mussolini and return him to power, he cried. And “we must occupy Rome” and “destroy the Vatican’s power, capture the pope, and say that we are protecting him.” The pope might even have to be killed.
About six weeks later, on September 13, SS General Karl Wolff, the SS commander in Italy, received a phone call from his boss, SS Chief Heinrich Himmler, orchestrator of the Holocaust. Himmler, Wolff told me, bellowed that the Fuehrer wanted to see him urgently.
READ MORE HERE

More Proof of Hitler's Plan to Kill Pius XII

Son of German Intelligence Officer Comes Forward


ROME, JUNE 16, 2009 (Zenit.org).- New evidence published today by the newspaper of the Italian bishops gives more credence to the belief that Adolf Hitler had planned to either kidnap or kill Pope Pius XII....

...New evidence published today by Avvenire now points to the role of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (the Third Reich's main security office) in devising a plot to take out the Pope.


The newspaper cited the testimony of Niki Freytag Loringhoven, 72, the son of Wessel Freytag von Loringhoven, who during World War II was a colonel in the High Command of the German Armed Forces.

According to the son, days after Hitler's Italian ally, Benito Mussolini, had been arrested at the orders of King Victor Emmanuel III, Hitler ordered the Reichssicherheitshauptamt to devise a plot to punish the Italian people by kidnapping or murdering Pius XII and the king of Italy.

Hearing of the project, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of the German counterintelligence service, informed his Italian counterpart, General Cesare Amè, during a secret meeting in Venice from July 29-30, 1943...
read more here

 
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onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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It's Mary that leads us to Jesus in the way God set up. Your "priority" is according to how you set it up. I've explained this before. I've tried to change the topic several times, it's anti-Catholics that can't talk about anything else. I've given plenty of scripture, you just ignore them. Here is a list for you to ignore as well:
Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
In the link above, the very first verse, Gen 3:15, is mis-translated by the Douay Rheims version. The characteristics of Jesus are attributed to Mary.

The second verse, Rev 12:1 is misinterpreted. The woman of Revelation 12 is Israel, and not Mary.

The third set of verses, John 2:4 and John 19:26 are again misinterpreted. They say nothing about Mary being the "mother of the new creation." Both the verses are used out of context and connected with Gen 3:15.

and I will read the rest of the article....

Epostle,
I urge you read the Bible without a catholic bias, and the Holy Spirit will speak to you.
Blessings!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,050
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Epostle, I urge you read the Bible without a catholic bias, and the Holy Spirit will speak to you. Blessings!
I commend you (and all others who have been diligently toiling in this field) for your dedication in trying to get some here to see the Truth as it is presented in Scripture. At the same time it is obvious that none of what you have presented as Scriptural truths has been accepted as such by those who adhere to the traditions of men over the revealed written Word of God. It is sad. I sometimes wonder what it will take for Roman Catholics to relinquish their heresies. The Holy Spirit, yes, but even then their bias continually works against God. Jesus knows there are such people. He spoke of them on a number of occasions. Are they likely to repent? Only time will tell. The fields are ready for reaping, but not here. Here we sow the seed on stony ground, hoping to till the soil somewhat and make it arable. Hopefully when their eyes are open to the deception they have been prey to, they will not throw out the baby with the bathwater. To that end I pray for them.
 
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KennethC

Guest
It's Mary that leads us to Jesus in the way God set up. Your "priority" is according to how you set it up. I've explained this before. I've tried to change the topic several times, it's anti-Catholics that can't talk about anything else. I've given plenty of scripture, you just ignore them. Here is a list for you to ignore as well:
Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
Mary does not lead us to Jesus and no scripture states that, God leads us to the Lord through His word as Romans 10:17 states.

The OT scriptures were all a shadow of things that pointed to our Lord Jesus and His coming and fulfillment of the prophecies !!!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,050
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Mary does not lead us to Jesus and no scripture states that, God leads us to the Lord through His word as Romans 10:17 states.

The OT scriptures were all a shadow of things that pointed to our Lord Jesus and His coming and fulfillment of the prophecies !!!
I wonder what it is about their Mariology that is so attractive to them. I see it as the worst of their heresies. Quite a stark contrast. Do you know that there have been quite a few hundred bishops trying to get more Marian dogmas enacted? Obviously two idolatrous and so called infallible statements concerning Mary that directly defy Scripture are not enough :( The number of websites now pushing their heresies is staggering.
 
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KennethC

Guest
I wonder what it is about their Mariology that is so attractive to them. I see it as the worst of their heresies. Quite a stark contrast. Do you know that there have been quite a few hundred bishops trying to get more Marian dogmas enacted? Obviously two idolatrous and so called infallible statements concerning Mary that directly defy Scripture are not enough :( The number of websites now pushing their heresies is staggering.
Not to mention from having insight in the church as I was a member of it at one time, the one thing also I have found hard for some Catholic's to admit is the cover-up the Catholic church tried to do to conceal the other children of Mary and Joseph as their doctrine tries to say Mary remained a virgin (perpetual virginity).

The main thing they try to use is the writing "Protoevangelium of James", and the problem with this writing is it comes from the 2nd Century around 120 A.D. Writings from Origen, Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius, and others use faulty opinionated responses to try and uphold the perpetual virginity.

By the 2nd century a number of bad writings were already floating around, and we can not say they are truth unless they can be backed with proof from either scripture or early church documents from the original Apostles/disciples in the 1st century.

If they can be proven with facts they should not be taken as facts !!!
 

tik

Banned
Oct 26, 2015
48
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With great respect to Catholicism....

Mary the mother of Jesus was described by God as “highly favored” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “highly favored” comes from a single Greek word, which essentially means “much grace.”

So Mary did receive God’s grace.

Grace is “unmerited favor,” meaning something we receive despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Mary needed grace from God just as the rest of us do. Mary herself understood this fact, as she declared in Luke 1:47, “. . . and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. . .

The Bible never says that Mary was anyone but an ordinary human whom God chose to use in an extraordinary way.
Mary was a righteous woman and favored (graced) by God Luke 1:27-28

Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us, as in this verse for example

Ecclesiastes 7:20; Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins

or this verse


Romans 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

or this verse

1 John 1:8.if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Mary was a human being who needed Jesus Christ as her Savior, just like everyone else, as follows from this verse

Romans 6:23; For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mary did not have an “immaculate conception.” The Bible doesn’t suggest Mary’s birth was anything but a normal human birth.

Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus (Luke 1:34-38), but the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary is unbiblical.
Matthew 1:25, speaking of Joseph, declares, “But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.”

The word “until” clearly indicates that Joseph and Mary did have sexual union after Jesus was born. Joseph and Mary had several children together after Jesus was born. Jesus had four half-brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). Jesus also had half-sisters, although they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:55-56). God blessed and graced Mary by giving her several children, which in that culture was the clearest indication of God’s blessing on a woman.

One time when Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd proclaimed, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed” (Luke 11:27). There was never a better opportunity for Jesus to declare that Mary was indeed worthy of praise and adoration. What was Jesus’ response? “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it” (Luke 11:28). To Jesus, obedience to God’s Word was more important than being the woman who gave birth to the Savior!

Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus, or anyone else, direct any praise, glory, or adoration towards Mary. Elizabeth, Mary’s relative, praised Mary in Luke 1:42-44, but her praise is based on the blessing of giving birth to the Messiah. It was not based on any inherent glory in Mary.

Mary was present at the cross when Jesus died (John 19:25). Mary was also with the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14). However, Mary is never mentioned again after Acts chapter 1. The apostles did not give Mary a prominent role. Mary’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Nothing is said about Mary ascending to heaven or having an exalted role there.

As the earthly mother of Jesus, Mary should be respected, but she is not worthy of our worship or adoration.

The Bible nowhere indicates that Mary can hear our prayers or that she can mediate for us with God. Jesus is our only advocate and mediator in heaven, as in this verse

1 Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

If offered worship, adoration, or prayers, Mary would say the same as the angels: “Worship God!”, as in this verse

Revelation 19:9-10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. But he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name” (Luke 1:46-49).
 
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KennethC

Guest
Not to mention from having insight in the church as I was a member of it at one time, the one thing also I have found hard for some Catholic's to admit is the cover-up the Catholic church tried to do to conceal the other children of Mary and Joseph as their doctrine tries to say Mary remained a virgin (perpetual virginity).

The main thing they try to use is the writing "Protoevangelium of James", and the problem with this writing is it comes from the 2nd Century around 120 A.D. Writings from Origen, Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius, and others use faulty opinionated responses to try and uphold the perpetual virginity.

By the 2nd century a number of bad writings were already floating around, and we can not say they are truth unless they can be backed with proof from either scripture or early church documents from the original Apostles/disciples in the 1st century.

If they can be proven with facts they should not be taken as facts !!!
Should say if they can't be proven with facts !!!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,050
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Not to mention from having insight in the church as I was a member of it at one time, the one thing also I have found hard for some Catholic's to admit is the cover-up the Catholic church tried to do to conceal the other children of Mary and Joseph as their doctrine tries to say Mary remained a virgin (perpetual virginity).

The main thing they try to use is the writing "Protoevangelium of James", and the problem with this writing is it comes from the 2nd Century around 120 A.D. Writings from Origen, Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius, and others use faulty opinionated responses to try and uphold the perpetual virginity.

By the 2nd century a number of bad writings were already floating around, and we can not say they are truth unless they can be backed with proof from either scripture or early church documents from the original Apostles/disciples in the 1st century.

If they can't be proven with facts they should not be taken as facts !!!
While it is true they diverge greatly from Scripture on quite a few matters, none seem so egregious to me as their Mariology, which elevates her above what was intended, certainly far above how Jesus Himself saw her, and makes her equal to the Son of God in certain matters. It is idolatry of the worst sort. They like to point back at the historicity of their heresies as if that alone could give them validity, and are forced to slag Scripture in order to do so. It is why they must attack the position of Sola Scriptura. They truly elevate the traditions of man above the revealed Written Word of God, as if it were insufficient. Neither Jesus nor any one of the apostles and/or disciples came anywhere close to making the proclamations about Mary that Catholics promote. Not to mention that some of them directly defy Scripture! That should be enough for them to be rejected, but no, apparently that is expecting too much. I pray that Jesus Christ alone becomes sufficient for them.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God
Correction: Mother of Jesus

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.
"they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him."
They saw whom? both, the child and Mary His mother
They worshipped whom? Only Him


Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").
Mother of the Son of God is not equal to "Mother of God"
One can easily see through the deception=> mother of (the son of ) God.
These are attempts to raise Mary to the highest pedestal.
The concept of the "Mother of God" is derived from the pagan Egyptian goddess Isis, who was also called the virgin mother of god.
The title "Theotokos" was decided upon at the third ecumenical Council of Ephesus in AD 431. The very first council held at Constantinople had pagan influence.
Later, the iconography of "the Theotokos" has been used (especially in India) to portray Mary as "Our Lady of Perpetual Succour"
 
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KennethC

Guest
Tik nobody is saying that Mary did not receive God's grace, and we also know it is unmerited !!!

The thing is though is that all believers in Christ receives God's grace, as Mary was and is not the only one.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God
Correction: Mother of Jesus

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.
"they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him."
They saw whom? both, the child and Mary His mother
They worshipped whom? Only Him


Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").
Mother of the Son of God is not equal to "Mother of God"
One can easily see through the deception=> mother of (the son of ) God.
These are attempts to raise Mary to the highest pedestal.
The concept of the "Mother of God" is derived from the pagan Egyptian goddess Isis, who was also called the virgin mother of god.
The title "Theotokos" was decided upon at the third ecumenical Council of Ephesus in AD 431. The very first council held at Constantinople had pagan influence.
Later, the iconography of "the Theotokos" has been used (especially in India) to portray Mary as "Our Lady of Perpetual Succour"
Which then further lead to the pagan title, "Queen of Heaven."

This title derived out of pagan cultures that can be traced back to the Babylonian empire !!!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Tik nobody is saying that Mary did not receive God's grace, and we also know it is unmerited !!!

The thing is though is that all believers in Christ receives God's grace, as Mary was and is not the only one.
Indeed, according to Scripture, and the very words of Jesus, many are blessed. :)
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Indeed, according to Scripture, and the very words of Jesus, many are blessed. :)
Yes I tried to show how other women both in the OT and NT received God's grace and was blessed, the statement blessed are you among women, was to only be taken in the stance of what she was called to do for God's will. Not to mean she requires to be put in the same standing as the Lord Himself, or even elevated above Him.

By their understanding then they should also give Abraham the same recognition but they don't...........
 

tik

Banned
Oct 26, 2015
48
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0
Also, let's look at the "exalted status" of virgin Mary from a “historian” point of view and let's compare it with "exalted status" of her son Jesus

The earliest known Marian prayer seems to come from the 3rd century (perhaps 270), and its text was discovered on a papyrus in Egypt.

270 AD is quite late from a “historian” point of view

Paul’s letters are actually the first Christian writings that we have from antiquity. Paul was Jewish Rabbi and respected Jewish leader. He was writing, for the most part, in the 50s of the Common Era, so some twenty or thirty years after Jesus’ crucifixion.

What is striking about Paul’s letters is that Paul clearly understands monotheism as the commitment to the one God over against idolatry. Yet remarkably Paul speaks of the relation between believers and Jesus in the same way as he speaks of the relation between believers and God. Such correspondence between God and Christ is found not just in one passage in Paul’s letters. We can find it in almost every chapter of every Pauline letter in the cannon. Dr. Chris Tilling, visiting lecturer in Theology at King’s College London, writes: “…Jesus is, as other New Testament scholars would say, included in the ‘unique divine identity’ and these conclusions are, crucially, grounded on dozens of Pauline texts….

Nothing like that can ever be said about Mary - the first prayer to Mary seems to originate from the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] century. Mary is never mentioned again after Acts chapter 1. The apostles did not give Mary a prominent role. Mary’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus, or anyone else, direct any praise, glory, or adoration towards Mary.

You can see the striking difference between the way Jesus was treated and the way his mother Mary was treated by the earliest Christians
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
660
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Not to mention from having insight in the church as I was a member of it at one time, the one thing also I have found hard for some Catholic's to admit is the cover-up the Catholic church tried to do to conceal the other children of Mary and Joseph as their doctrine tries to say Mary remained a virgin (perpetual virginity).

The main thing they try to use is the writing "Protoevangelium of James", and the problem with this writing is it comes from the 2nd Century around 120 A.D. Writings from Origen, Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius, and others use faulty opinionated responses to try and uphold the perpetual virginity.

By the 2nd century a number of bad writings were already floating around, and we can not say they are truth unless they can be backed with proof from either scripture or early church documents from the original Apostles/disciples in the 1st century.

If they can be proven with facts they should not be taken as facts !!!
According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1)

I see no one wants to get off the Mary Catholic-bashing bandwagon.

Where did you get your Ph.D. in Patristic Studies, Kenneth?

Like I've said, anti-Catholics are doctrinally anti-Semitic, flatly rejecting Jewish customs, practices and beliefs because they are fulfilled in Catholicism.
Protoevangelium of James is unlike any of the erroneous gnostic writings of the time. It gives insights into Jewish customs that you can't stand.

Mary: Ever Virgin | Catholic Answers

Protoevangelium of James full context
 
Jul 4, 2015
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Mark 7:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Not everyone who claims to be a follower of God is a follower of God but are instead a follower of Satan. Catholicism has departed from the Truth from God to follow the teachings of men.

Luke 8:5-8
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Not everyone who hears the Truth will accept the Truth and follow Jesus. The Catholics today are a good example of the seed among the thorns. The seed is the Truth, the Gospel, the scriptures from God.
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
660
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Luke 1:28 [RSV]: "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'"

[The RSVCE translates kecharitomene ("favored one" above) as "full of grace"]

Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary - itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated "highly favored" - which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language). I have done a great deal of exegesis and analysis of this verse, in dialogue with Evangelical Protestants, and so I shall draw from that thought and experience in this chapter.

Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary's freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don't see that this is "fitting" or "appropriate" (as Catholics do).

The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).
(Robertson, II, 13)

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact thatkecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies astate granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:
Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .
(Kittel, 1304-1305)

Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It's a "zero-sum game": the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.

2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary...

...What we have, then, is not so much a matter of Catholics reading into Scripture, as Protestants, in effect, reading certain passages out of Scripture altogether (that is, ignoring their strong implications), because they do not fit in with their preconceived notions.​
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epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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Which then further lead to the pagan title, "Queen of Heaven."

This title derived out of pagan cultures that can be traced back to the Babylonian empire !!!
This insane post proves my theory: that Mary-bashing anti-Catholics are doctrinally anti-Semitic.

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

The Davidic Kingdom was Babylonian??? Your anti-Catholicism is psychotic.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1)

I see no one wants to get off the Mary Catholic-bashing bandwagon.

Where did you get your Ph.D. in Patristic Studies, Kenneth?

Like I've said, anti-Catholics are doctrinally anti-Semitic, flatly rejecting Jewish customs, practices and beliefs because they are fulfilled in Catholicism.
Protoevangelium of James is unlike any of the erroneous gnostic writings of the time. It gives insights into Jewish customs that you can't stand.

Mary: Ever Virgin | Catholic Answers

Protoevangelium of James full context
Once again you listen to your church leaders and there documentations rather then broaden your horizon and seek out the truth.

Your last paragraph is completely false because I have done research study in Jewish customs, practices, and beliefs and they are not routed in Catholicism. The practices of the Catholicism is routed with pagan Roman traditions and practices though.

There was no such thing as a Pope in the first 3 Centuries as the Catholic church claims, and Peter was crucified before the term catholic was ever used.

You state a Ph.D. as you make the same mistake as some OSASers that have gone to biblical college or Seminary school, as you few seem to think it requires a college level education to understand the Word of God.

You do realize God chose the less fortunate and uneducated as well to serve His will ???

Wrong also as the Protoevangelium of James has issues that do not align with the word, and its dating comes to late to be a reliable source especially since the title itself shows the faultiness in it as it could not have come from the Apostle James in 120 A.D. unless James lived to be well over 100 years old !!!
 
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