If God elects people, how can He rightly punish the non-elect?

[sparkman]

I don't mind if you use the nickname.

Sorry Sparkman, I just saw your post. I gotta call you sparky also. Would this be ok? Your kinda a spark around here in a lot of areas,that would be my motivation in that nickname.

Righteous justice. Not arbitrary.

Righteous justice condemned us all. We sinned, He condemned us. And condemnation must precede salvation.

In righteous justice He condemned all, He didn't have to offer salvation, but He did. So righteous justice condemned ALL, Righteous justice has to offer salvation to ALL. He offered us salvation, so He is obliged to follow through on that offer. Righteous justice would have it no other way.

SO......His justice was satisfied on the cross.

Righteous Justice condemned ALL, righteous justice has to offer salvation to ALL.

And we are saved through faith in His Son. If even one man was denied access to faith in His Son, His perfect righteousness would be compromised and He would be UNJUST.

Freewill answers the question why some men are not saved. They reject the Justice of the Cross.

 

[sparkman]

By the way I don't try to be controversial.

I do get involved a lot in the Sabbath/festival/unclean and clean meat discussions due to my former affiliation with Worldwide Church of God, which was kind of cultic. In addition, I have been involved in discussions with other people in the past who hold weird ideas like Campbellites so I tend to counter bad reasoning in a few areas I am familiar with.

I don't always use the best judgment on when to let something pass or to address it, though. I spend a lot of time on my knees afterwards sometimes.

If I had my way though, I'd rather be talking to seekers who are looking for clarification on basic salvation issues or new Christians who need teaching or encouragement. I really like talking to Muslims who are seeking more knowledge of Christianity.

Sorry Sparkman, I just saw your post. I gotta call you sparky also. Would this be ok? Your kinda a spark around here in a lot of areas,that would be my motivation in that nickname.

Righteous justice. Not arbitrary.

Righteous justice condemned us all. We sinned, He condemned us. And condemnation must precede salvation.

In righteous justice He condemned all, He didn't have to offer salvation, but He did. So righteous justice condemned ALL, Righteous justice has to offer salvation to ALL. He offered us salvation, so He is obliged to follow through on that offer. Righteous justice would have it no other way.

SO......His justice was satisfied on the cross.

Righteous Justice condemned ALL, righteous justice has to offer salvation to ALL.

And we are saved through faith in His Son. If even one man was denied access to faith in His Son, His perfect righteousness would be compromised and He would be UNJUST.

Freewill answers the question why some men are not saved. They reject the Justice of the Cross.

 

[Gr8grace]

By the way I don't try to be controversial.

I do get involved a lot in the Sabbath/festival/unclean and clean meat discussions due to my former affiliation with Worldwide Church of God, which was kind of cultic. In addition, I have been involved in discussions with other people in the past who hold weird ideas like Campbellites so I tend to counter bad reasoning in a few areas I am familiar with.

I don't always use the best judgment on when to let something pass or to address it, though. I spend a lot of time on my knees afterwards sometimes.

If I had my way though, I'd rather be talking to seekers who are looking for clarification on basic salvation issues or new Christians who need teaching or encouragement. I really like talking to Muslims who are seeking more knowledge of Christianity.

IMO Sparky, you hold true to that ideal. And I have taken nuggets from you whether you know it or not. And I am thankful to read your posts.

 

[PeterJens]

Predestination

I had a thought. If everyone who was doomed to be destroyed, knew that was their end not matter what they did, why behave in any meaningful way. You have got nothing to loose. But then why would you believe such a pessimistic reality, in fact everything would want to point you towards another reality.

The only people motivated, in fact excited about predestination, or Gods intention for His people are His people.

In all your dealings with the Lord, in everything around you, in the beauty and balance of creation and its wonder, what makes you doubt his love and justice? Look at man. A person starving to death, without love, support, shelter, a home, left to die, without care or understanding and we walk away. That is man. Or because you are born into the wrong family, the wrong teaching you deserve to be exterminated. That is man.

So however the Lord deals with the lost, I want to know, that he deals with me with infinite grace, because boy do I get it wrong.

 

[valiant]

In others words, you cannot give the basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others therefore your Calvinism has provided to its believers a big gaping hole theology that they cannot explain. This gaping hole theology, the inability to explain the basis when the bible DOES give the basis shows that you're espousing Calvinism.

When I meet a man who thinks he understands God's ways I know I am talking to a fool. For His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. As Paul says, His ways are past finding out.

So if you think you've sussed God you condemn yourself. It is evidence of a sect that they always know how God will act because they see God mirrored in themselves.

 

[valiant]

So do you believe the bible forces people to love God ???

The Bible has no power to force anyone. It is a book. But do I believe that GOD can move people to love Him. Yes I do. Otherwise no one would love Him.

If you believe that then you completely ignore all the scriptures that speak on free will to choose, for even God said "I give you this day life and death, choose life."

Not at all. The Bible faces man up to his responsibility. All are responsible to obey the Scriptures. They have the freewill to do so if they wish. It is only right that they be given the opportunity. Every command to choose gives them that opportunity. God commands all men everywhere to repent. But the truth is that they will never of their own freewill truly seek God (they may seek His benefits) or repent fully because the set of their whole being is against God as He is. It is only those whom God moves and transforms by His Spirit who will truly seek Him. And they will necessarily find Him.

 

[Elin]

The bible says that sin was in the world but where there is no law sin is not imputed so until a baby reaches the age of accountability then sin is not imputed.

Yes, sin had to be in the world because all men died, and all death is the result of sin.

The sin that was in the world between Adam and Moses, when there was no law and sin was not imputed, was the guilt of Adam's sin (Ro 5:19) into which we are all born, and who by nature (with which we are born--Ro 8:7-8) are objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

 

[KennethC]

The Bible has no power to force anyone. It is a book. But do I believe that GOD can move people to love Him. Yes I do. Otherwise no one would love Him.




Not at all. The Bible faces man up to his responsibility. All are responsible to obey the Scriptures. They have the freewill to do so if they wish. It is only right that they be given the opportunity. Every command to choose gives them that opportunity. God commands all men everywhere to repent. But the truth is that they will never of their own freewill truly seek God (they may seek His benefits) or repent fully because the set of their whole being is against God as He is. It is only those whom God moves and transforms by His Spirit who will truly seek Him. And they will necessarily find Him.

Yes but once again there is a big difference in God moving a person to come to Him, and forcing a person to come to Him.

The moving is just God putting in our hearts to hear His word, once that is done it then still becomes our choice to accept and trust in what we heard. If we never have a choice in that calling then that is being forced, which the bible never says is the case as it shows we choose eternal life or we continue to keep heading toward eternal death.

If we play no role what so ever then there would be no need of the Great Commission that was commanded by the Lord in Matthew 28:19-20 for us to do. He commissioned us to go and make new disciples out of those who are still unbelievers, why if He does it all Himself? Because we play a part in the salvation process by keeping our faith in the Lord tell the end !!!

 

[Elin]

Predestination

I had a thought. If everyone who was doomed to be destroyed, knew that was their end not matter what they did,

Since faith is a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:38; Ro 12;3), that is their end (Jn 3:36) because salvation is not by good works, but by faith.

 

[valiant]

Yes but once again there is a big difference in God moving a person to come to Him, and forcing a person to come to Him.

LOL if I was a policeman and I moved you, you would choose to go. You would have no alternative. When I said He moves us I meant like a policeman. He exerts His full authority and power. He gives us no option. However He is greater than a policeman because He is able to make us want to go. If God chooses to save someone they will be saved, and like it.

The moving is just God putting in our hearts to hear His word,

You say 'just'? LOL if God puts it in our heart to hear His word, we will hear it and respond. He has the power to do make sure that we do. He does not ask our permission, He carries out His will.

once that is done it then still becomes our choice to accept and trust in what we heard.

If God moves us we are not left with a choice. He causes us to do His will. His persuasion is irresistible.

If we never have a choice in that calling then that is being forced,

well you can call it what you like. Certainly we are left with no choice but to choose to do what He wants. But that is the wonderful thing. He ensures we make that 'choice'. It is not difficult to ensure that someone chooses to do what we want them to do. All we have to do is give sufficient incentive.

which the bible never says is the case as it shows we choose eternal life or we continue to keep heading toward eternal death.

well the Bible DOES actually say it is the case. He has compassion on whom He will have compassion, and whom He will He hardens. And if He has compassion on us we will do His will. For He will ensure that we do.

If we play no role what so ever then there would be no need of the Great Commission that was commanded by the Lord in Matthew 28:19-20 for us to do. He commissioned us to go and make new disciples out of those who are still unbelievers, why if He does it all Himself?

Because He chose to carry out His will in this way. He could have used angels. He chose to use us. Do you really think that, knowing us, He would have left it to us if our participation had been VITAL? How foolish, especially with Satan waiting in the wings. Angels would have been more persuasive and effective. (Have you noticed that angels always get their way?) But God chose us to do it because He wanted it to be part of our training and moulding. We go out and do it because God told us to.

Because we play a part in the salvation process by keeping our faith in the Lord tell the end !!!

You have the wrong idea about 'the salvation process.' As far as the salvation process is concerned we who are saved are 'saved' at the commencement of it. Our salvation is guaranteed (Tit 3.5; Eph 2.8-9).The process is simply the moulding of us, changing us from glory into glory, until we are presented perfect before Him. We do play a part in it. But it is not in doubt. For He works in us to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil 2.13).

HE keeps our faith until the end. He 'confirms us to the end' (1 Cor 1.8). He does not leave it to us. 'He IS ABLE to keep that which I have committed to Him against That Day'.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

LOL if I was a policeman and I moved you, you would choose to go. You would have no alternative. When I said He moves us I meant like a policeman. He exerts His full authority and power. He gives us no option. However He is greater than a policeman because He is able to make us want to go. If God chooses to save someone they will be saved, and like it.

You say 'just'? LOL if God puts it in our heart to hear His word, we will hear it and respond. He has the power to do make sure that we do. He does not ask our permission, He carries out His will.

If God moves us we are not left with a choice. He causes us to do His will. His persuasion is irresistible.

well you can call it what you like. Certainly we are left with no choice but to choose to do what He wants. But that is the wonderful thing. He ensures we make that 'choice'. It is not difficult to ensure that someone chooses to do what we want them to do. All we have to do is give sufficient incentive.

well the Bible DOES actually say it is the case. He has compassion on whom He will have compassion, and whom He will He hardens. And if He has compassion on us we will do His will. For He will ensure that we do.

Because He chose to carry out His will in this way. He could have used angels. He chose to use us. Do you really think that, knowing us, He would have left it to us if our participation had been VITAL? How foolish, especially with Satan waiting in the wings. Angels would have been more persuasive and effective. (Have you noticed that angels always get their way?) But God chose us to do it because He wanted it to be part of our training and moulding. We go out and do it because God told us to. <snip>

It seems it is possible to resist the holy Spirit - Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers, so ye. Acts 7:51

And if salvation is totally given with NO choice made by us to believe and is only by God's "enforcement", then ALL men will be saved for that is God's will, right? 1 Tim. 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - ALL = only those who have been chosen? or ALL = for all have sinned?

 

[KennethC]

LOL if I was a policeman and I moved you, you would choose to go. You would have no alternative. When I said He moves us I meant like a policeman. He exerts His full authority and power. He gives us no option. However He is greater than a policeman because He is able to make us want to go. If God chooses to save someone they will be saved, and like it.



You say 'just'? LOL if God puts it in our heart to hear His word, we will hear it and respond. He has the power to do make sure that we do. He does not ask our permission, He carries out His will.



If God moves us we are not left with a choice. He causes us to do His will. His persuasion is irresistible.



well you can call it what you like. Certainly we are left with no choice but to choose to do what He wants. But that is the wonderful thing. He ensures we make that 'choice'. It is not difficult to ensure that someone chooses to do what we want them to do. All we have to do is give sufficient incentive.



well the Bible DOES actually say it is the case. He has compassion on whom He will have compassion, and whom He will He hardens. And if He has compassion on us we will do His will. For He will ensure that we do.



Because He chose to carry out His will in this way. He could have used angels. He chose to use us. Do you really think that, knowing us, He would have left it to us if our participation had been VITAL? How foolish, especially with Satan waiting in the wings. Angels would have been more persuasive and effective. (Have you noticed that angels always get their way?) But God chose us to do it because He wanted it to be part of our training and moulding. We go out and do it because God told us to.



You have the wrong idea about 'the salvation process.' As far as the salvation process is concerned we who are saved are 'saved' at the commencement of it. Our salvation is guaranteed (Tit 3.5; Eph 2.8-9).The process is simply the moulding of us, changing us from glory into glory, until we are presented perfect before Him. We do play a part in it. But it is not in doubt. For He works in us to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil 2.13).

HE keeps our faith until the end. He 'confirms us to the end' (1 Cor 1.8). He does not leave it to us. 'He IS ABLE to keep that which I have committed to Him against That Day'.

You still are stating it in the form of forcing one to do something, and that is not the way God works !!!

No the bible gives us the choice;

Deuteronomy 30:19

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

If you want to continue to say we don't have a choice and speak as if it is forced upon us then all I can do is shake my head and move on, because the bible clearly gives us free will to choose.

If you believe salvation is guaranteed then try telling that to those in the parables of Matthew 25 and Matthew 7:23 who thought they were saved, but when they stood in front of Jesus He sent them away to eternal punishment. Those individuals pleaded with the Lord asking Him why because they though believing in Him as their Lord was enough, but Jesus told them because they did not do for others and continued to work iniquity (sinful nature) that is why they did not receive eternal life !!!

 

[valiant]

It seems it is possible to resist the holy Spirit - Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers, so ye. Acts 7:51

Unbelievers are resisting the Holy Spirit constantly. Sooooooo?

And if salvation is totally given with NO choice made by us to believe and is only by God's "enforcement", then ALL men will be saved for that is God's will, right? 1 Tim. 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - ALL = only those who have been chosen? or ALL = for all have sinned?

or as it means so often 'all types and conditions of men'. ?

 

[valiant]

You still are stating it in the form of forcing one to do something, and that is not the way God works !!!

But Scripture says that it is the way He works as Rom 9-11 makes clear.

No the bible gives us the choice; Deuteronomy 30:19

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

The Bible gives us a choice from start to finish. But that does not mean that we will ever of ourselves choose righteousness. Man is given a choice so that he can be rightly condemned.

If you want to continue to say we don't have a choice and speak as if it is forced upon us then all I can do is shake my head and move on, because the bible clearly gives us free will to choose.

Yes and the Bible continually says that of ourselves we will choose wrongly.

If you believe salvation is guaranteed then try telling that to those in the parables of Matthew 25 and Matthew 7:23 who thought they were saved, but when they stood in front of Jesus He sent them away to eternal punishment.

7.23 says all that needs to be said. 'I NEVER (NEVER NEVER) knew you'. It applies in both cases.

Those individuals pleaded with the Lord asking Him why because they thought believing in Him as their Lord was enough, but Jesus told them because they did not do for others and continued to work iniquity (sinful nature) that is why they did not receive eternal life !!!

I don't see any mention of the word 'believe'. But I do see where He said INEVER NEVER NEVER KNEW YOU.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Unbelievers are resisting the Holy Spirit constantly. Sooooooo?

Not only unbelievers but at times believers also resist chastising . . . chastising comes from God via the Holy Spirit. . . . and at one time even the "elect" were unbelievers so it is possible to resist the Holy Spirit.

or as it means so often 'all types and conditions of men'. ?

BUT - if it is "ALL types and conditions of men" (all without exception) which I do believe it means then why are some saved and some not if it is God's will for ALL to be saved? That's why I asked if it was just the elect (all with distinction, i.e. the elect) if as you say: "If God moves us we are not left with a choice. He causes us to do His will. His persuasion is irresistible. . . . . no choice but to choose to do what He wants".

Can one choose to believe in the only begotten Son of God through hearing the word of God? . . . does one have that ability?

 

[oldthennew]

LUKE 8:11-12-13.

Now the parable is this: The seed is The Word of God.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then comes the devil and takes away
the Word out of their hearts lest they should believe and be saved.

They on the Rock are they which, when they hear, receive the Word with joy;
and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[resurrection33]

Based on this verse, I don't understand how God can punish those who are not elect.

Ephesians 1:4-5 (KJV) "According as he hath chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

So if He has chosen some, then that means that nobody else has the ability to get saved now, right? But how can they be blamed if they don't have the ability to do good (since they are born sinners), or accept Jesus' sacrifice to cover them?

Some of you might say that they still deserve to go to hell because they have chosen to sin against God, but because of the conditions we've been put in, it's impossible not to. No one chose to be born. None of us chose to be put into a life where it's impossible to stop doing the very thing that condemns them. But even if they're given the gospel, it doesn't matter because they weren't made to be saved and go to Heaven anyway.

Thanks to everyone who responds.

Depending on how you look at it, I don't think the Lord punishes anyone. He just lets us experience the consequences of our sin. For example, if I rob a bank, I'll probably go to prison. On the other hand, the Lord will save us from the consequences of our sin, at least to some degree, if we repent of our sin.

Looking at it another way, you can credit the Lord with everything that happens, in which case you might say that he does punish us when we sin.