If God elects people, how can He rightly punish the non-elect?

[valiant]

James clearly teaches of this in James 1:13-15 where he says if those who are drawn away by their lusts and let them get full grown again to where they control them again it brings forth eternal death.

James is describing temptation and the effect that it has. Have you never given way to temptation like this? I have. And what happened to me? Did I die? NO. I repented and asked forgiveness.

James is only bringing out what the natural end of sin is if a person is not saved.. He is not saying that everyone who gives way to it actually dies. He is basically saying that 'the wages of sin is death' which is why we should seek to avoid it. The one who lets it get full grown thereby proves he is not a Christian..

 

[valiant]

Wrong again as the Greek word psuche (soul) and its usage can clearly be looked up in a Greek usage study;

b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνεινὑπέρτῶνψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17;ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινεςστρατεύονταικατάτῆςψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοποςτῶνψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειντάςψυχάς,James 1:21; ψυχήνἐκθανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20;σωτηρίαψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειντάςψυχάςἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάςψυχάςπιστῷκτίστῃπαρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).

This comes from Greek Lexicon that shows how the words are used...........

I suggest you buy a new lexicon. Mine has a page and a half on psuche. It has such a wide variation of usage that nothing dogmatic can be said about it. But it basically means man's inner life which 'dies' when the man dies. And that is what James is talking about..

God is the only one that can destroy the soul, not man, and this is clearly shown in Matthew 10:28 and the bible clearly shows also this is done in the lake of fire.

But Jesus there specifically speaks about destroying a body and psuche in Hell. James, however, merely speaks of dying. He does not speak of 'destroying the soul'. You really cannot make the two mean the same thing. That is a travesty of the truth.

I am not wrestling with scripture as you are the one that is ignoring that it clearly says they are eating and drinking damnation/condemnation to themselves. This can not be possible if there is not condemnation to those in Christ, but there still is condemnation to those who sow to the flesh or as in walk by the flesh and not by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 11:29

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

the word means 'judgment'. But Paul then goes on to point out that the judgment that they bring on themselves is sleep 'so that they will not be condemned with the world'. How can it mean damnation if they are not to be condemned? You need a new translation LOL

 

[kiki6598]

Let's try this logic with the justice system in the US using your same argument.



That really stopped making sense all together, didn't it? What percentage of prisoners believe they had no choice, but had to commit their crimes -- and please remember, most didn't get busted for breaking just one law. Even if they did "just one crime," if you ever listen to a verdict being read, you'll notice they broke many laws. (It's rare when the verdict is only one "guilty," since the list of charges are judged one at a time.)

That's the American justice system. It doesn't call a person to some prison time for killing a cow. It doesn't require prison time for adulterous thoughts. It doesn't require prison time if you don't keep the Sabbath holy or have gods before the God. God's law does. And it's not merely prison time. It's permanent separation from God, death and hell.

So, really? When was the last time you "accidentally" put your desires above God's will? When was the last time you "accidentally" put your desires above loving others? What are the percentages on you "accidentally" sinning versus intentionally sinning? Are you innocent? Was your hand forced to do what you would never conceive to do on your own? Were you really innocent with the only reason to do what you did was because you were "born a sinner," or did you freely sin for your own selfish moments? You break God's law once and you deserve his punishment. Tell me you never freely did it anyway, and you may have a point. Tell me you're the only one who freely did that and you might have a point. Tell me those people in prison had no choice, and maybe you have something there.

Here's what God says on the subject:
John 3:16-21:
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

John 6:35-40
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Romans... ah, nuts. The whole thing is a built-in case of how God works, so I can't give you the precise verse or chapter, but you really need to take it in as a whole.

Make no mistake. No one accidentally broke God's law. No one is sinless. Even if both my parents were murderers, it doesn't free me to murder. We deserve God's punishment. So it's mercy he chose some out of what we rightly deserve.

I thought your response was interesting. Oddly, what I appreciate about it is that it gives me the responsibility to make my choices instead of just waiting around to see whether or not God will come around for me. I just really want to thank you because it made me think about it. I feel like I have a little more direction for now.

 

[kiki6598]

Hi guys. So I didn't read everyone's comments; there were a lot. But when it all comes down to it, what I really wanted to get out of this was the assurance that I had a chance in receiving salvation. With the thought that God's election prevented the non-elect from finding salvation, it kind of just led me to hang around thinking "well if I've been chosen, then I've been chosen. If I haven't, then I haven't... I guess I'll just wait to see what happens." But when I know that I actually have a choice in the matter, that kind of gives me that push to look further in hopes that I'll find what I've been searching for. So yeah, haha, that's pretty much it. Keep using this thread if you want, and thanks to everyone for their responses.

 

[PeterJens]

Unscriptual psychobabble. . .

You make me laugh. The point God is making in the garden of Eden is about relationships, about knowledge and understanding, about His relationship with us.

Every point has a reason, is there to show something about ourselves.

Let us take one simple point. Adam walked with God, face to face. He was naked. Yet he was given a tree to look at but not taste, with something that would destroy him, yet there was no fence or warning, without this key you cannot get close. Now we use walls, gates etc. to stop people getting hurt.

So God created this dilemma, this choice, and invited Adam and Eve to choose.

How is this psycho babble? I would suggest you have some problems of simple understanding of life and the Lord.

 

[valiant]

Hi guys. So I didn't read everyone's comments; there were a lot. But when it all comes down to it, what I really wanted to get out of this was the assurance that I had a chance in receiving salvation.

All men have 'a chance' in receiving salvation. The offer is there. The problem is that all men will on their own initiative always reject salvation. If God leaves the choice wholly to us none will be saved.

With the thought that God's election prevented the non-elect from finding salvation,

God's election does not mean that the non-elect are prevented by it from receiving salvation. However, it does mean that they will not, not because God prevents it, but because their own sinful nature prevents it. By choice all men will reject God AS HE IS. They do not want His interference. THAT is why He has to positively elect some, for if He did not none would be saved.

it kind of just led me to hang around thinking "well if I've been chosen, then I've been chosen. If I haven't, then I haven't... I guess I'll just wait to see what happens."

That brings out the sinfulness of your nature. Had you been sinless you would not have thought like that. You would have sought God with all your heart. Thus you can see that you are deserving of God's judgment by your very nature (as I am). Assuming that you are a Christian you are so because God chose you, not because you chose Him..

But when I know that I actually have a choice in the matter, that kind of gives me that push to look further in hopes that I'll find what I've been searching for.

You are deceiving yourself. The vast majority who think like you never put any effort into seeking God at all. The truth is that unless the Holy Spirit gives you a push you will never seek God. It is the work of God which causes men to seek Him, not their own goodness, or even their own need. Most live heedless of God (and it is not because of election which they know nothing about).

 

[sparkman]

If I were you, I would not try to over-think issues like this to the point where they bother you, if that is true. Some men go where angels fear to tread in terms of doctrine.

Anymore nowadays I just don't try to figure out all of the issues regarding God's sovereignty and man's free will. It is a hopeless mystery.

I have been on both ends of the extreme so I know how both groups think. Calvinists must acknowledge that those who go to eternal punishment have no real choice about the matter in their theology, as regeneration precedes faith. So, whether they deny it or not, they do believe in double predestination.

The Arminian must fear for his salvation as it is all about him and his choices, and his salvation system is anthropocentric, which I know is the greater error. In addition, they must explain how a man dead in his sins can come to Christ. Their doctrine of prevenient grace sounds good but it isn't proveable Scripturally.

I have given up on figuring it all out. I think both sides are in some degree of error and God is bigger than we all think. There are missing pieces of the puzzle. I tend to think the Reformed side has the most pieces, and the better part of the puzzle but there are issues with their view as well. As a general rule, they tend to be more faithful to Scripture though.

Hi guys. So I didn't read everyone's comments; there were a lot. But when it all comes down to it, what I really wanted to get out of this was the assurance that I had a chance in receiving salvation. With the thought that God's election prevented the non-elect from finding salvation, it kind of just led me to hang around thinking "well if I've been chosen, then I've been chosen. If I haven't, then I haven't... I guess I'll just wait to see what happens." But when I know that I actually have a choice in the matter, that kind of gives me that push to look further in hopes that I'll find what I've been searching for. So yeah, haha, that's pretty much it. Keep using this thread if you want, and thanks to everyone for their responses.

 

[secularhermit]

Contrary to several other teachings, I still believe God does His things this way:

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 Only those who sin will be put to death. Children won't suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won't suffer for the sins of their children. Good people will be rewarded for what they do, and evil people will be punished for what they do.

I don´t belive in pre-destination, but in justice and in the obedience of the Gospel of Jesus (not another man´s ideas)

 

[sparkman]

The problem with saying you don't believe in predestination is that you need to deny the 60 references to it in the New Testament.

Predestined, predestination, chose, chosen, elected, elect...it's impossible to ignore the many explicit references, let alone the implicit ones.

It's really a catch-22 situation and neither side can fully resolve it with the pieces that we have right now. I have seen no adequate argument that fully reconciles the concept of God's sovereignty versus man's free will.

By the way, Charles Spurgeon made similar remarks, so before my Reformed brothers decide to crucify me, I will lean upon his affirmation of the very view I take on this subject.

Mystery is not the same thing as a contradiction. A mystery assumes there is some way to reconcile the two totally, but I don't know what it is yet. I don't think anyone does at this point.

Contrary to several other teachings, I still believe God does His things this way:

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 Only those who sin will be put to death. Children won't suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won't suffer for the sins of their children. Good people will be rewarded for what they do, and evil people will be punished for what they do.

I don´t belive in pre-destination, but in justice and in the obedience of the Gospel of Jesus (not another man´s ideas)

 

[KennethC]

James is describing temptation and the effect that it has. Have you never given way to temptation like this? I have. And what happened to me? Did I die? NO. I repented and asked forgiveness.

James is only bringing out what the natural end of sin is if a person is not saved.. He is not saying that everyone who gives way to it actually dies. He is basically saying that 'the wages of sin is death' which is why we should seek to avoid it. The one who lets it get full grown thereby proves he is not a Christian..

Once again this is not speaking of physical death, and yes we all backslide at times but you are not going to face spiritual death in the lake of fire because you have repented/confessed of it.

The part you seem to overlook is the part to where it says controls you again, so if you have repented/confessed of it then it has not controlled you again. If it has then you would not give it up and repent of it !!!

I suggest you buy a new lexicon. Mine has a page and a half on psuche. It has such a wide variation of usage that nothing dogmatic can be said about it. But it basically means man's inner life which 'dies' when the man dies. And that is what James is talking about..



But Jesus there specifically speaks about destroying a body and psuche in Hell. James, however, merely speaks of dying. He does not speak of 'destroying the soul'. You really cannot make the two mean the same thing. That is a travesty of the truth.



the word means 'judgment'. But Paul then goes on to point out that the judgment that they bring on themselves is sleep 'so that they will not be condemned with the world'. How can it mean damnation if they are not to be condemned? You need a new translation LOL

The lexicon I use has a wide variation of how the Greek words are used to, and it even breaks it down and shows exactly how it is used in each scripture that it is in. I just gave a small portion of its usage because this is where it says how it was used in James 5:20 and it clearly states the usage in this passage is from eternal death.

Well your lexicon is the one that is wrong if it says the soul dies when the man dies, because the bible refutes that interpretation by the words of the Lord Himself who says that only God can destroy/kill the soul (Matthew 10:28). It does not die when the person dies, as the bible clearly says when man dies only the body dies !!!

It is about destroying the soul because it clearly says that the passage is referring to eternal death, and those who go to hell will be the one's cast into the lake of fire. There is not coming out of punishment once you are sent there, as Jesus clearly shows if you do not obey the Word while you are in the flesh and then die it is to late to be saved after words.

That sleep that is being spoken of is the waiting period tell judgment comes and they are cast into the lake of fire, as nobody is judged immediately after they die. The judgment does not come tell after the 2nd Resurrection, and they sleep awaiting that judgment just like those who die in Christ will sleep tell they are brought up in the 1st Resurrection !!!

 

[valiant]

Contrary to several other teachings, I still believe God does His things this way:

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 Only those who sin will be put to death. Children won't suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won't suffer for the sins of their children. Good people will be rewarded for what they do, and evil people will be punished for what they do.

I don´t belive in pre-destination, but in justice and in the obedience of the Gospel of Jesus (not another man´s ideas)

So you thinks that some people are sinless and only those who sin will die? Funny thing is everyone dies. So bang goes your logic!!

If you really think that the problems of election and freewill can be solved by citing three verses you must be joking.

Everyone I have met believes in predestination in their hearts. For if we believe that God knew ALL THINGS from the beginning then when He created the process which led to the existence of mankind He knew precisely exactly what was to happen to each human being. Thus by creating them He predestined them to whatever end would be theirs. Double predestination. THAT conclusion is unavoidable. Why did He not change His plans to exclude the existence of the ones who would be lost? He must squarely take the blame for their existence, and therefore for their condemnation..

 

[Elin]

The problem with saying you don't believe in predestination is that you need to deny the 60 references to it in the New Testament.

Predestined, predestination, chose, chosen, elected, elect...it's impossible to ignore the many explicit references, let alone the implicit ones.

It's really a catch-22 situation and neither side can fully resolve it with the pieces that we have right now.
I have seen no adequate argument that fully reconciles the concept of God's sovereignty versus man's free will.

Does this help?

way, Charles Spurgeon made similar remarks, so before my Reformed brothers decide to crucify me, I will lean upon his affirmation of the very view I take on this subject.

Mystery is not the same thing as a contradiction. A
mystery assumes there is some way to reconcile the two totally, but I don't know what it is yet. I don't think anyone does at this point.

However, mystery in the NT means something never before revealed, not something hard to understand.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But that's your rule. . .and we don't get to make the rules for God.

God is also a God of justice.

He also claims to be a God of love, If his justice condemns all, and his love does not offer forgiveness to all. His claim of being a loving God is watered down, and actually would be seen as a false love.

People love to bring his justice up. and thats a good thing, but we can not forget his love.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

-Satan never won anything - he's allowed a short leash that God commands - why would anyone ever say that???

I ask that question myself. Why would we believe in a doctrine which gives satan credit and takes away from god? Yet people do it all the time.

-If all Glory is God's, and the work is God's where does human effort towards salvation come? rhetorical Q

There is no huan credit in salvation. My placing my complete and utter faith in Christ to save me, God gets all the credit, I get absolutely no credit.
Yet free will is maintained.

Anyway - I think we all have bigger fish to fry than if you agree or disagree with TULIP or Calvinistic Theology -

The better question is - what are you basing your ability to persevere under what is ahead? Your effort, or God's effort in the finished work of Christ

The same thing that saved me, I have faith in Gods will. Gods way, and Gods commands.

Faith is the basis of work. I could not do anything apart from God. so again, God gets all the credit, I get non (unless I am trusting myself. in which case I become a legalist and am in dire trouble.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought Paul already answered this question...

Romans 9:18-21 (KJV)
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:18-21

yet we need to go to the OT to find out what Paul is actually referencing here.

In the OT reference, the clay has DESTROYED ITSELF, And God had destroyed what he was making, so he could start over again.

We can not just take a quote out of reference without first seeing what the quote was all about.

it is about God tried to bring Israel up. Israel (of its free will) decided to go against Gods will. so God took it down, and started over, the end result will be that eventually, the thing God wanted to make will be made (inspite of free will, inspite of sin, inspite of rebellion and anything else. God will get his way.

 

[sparkman]

Does this help?


However, mystery in the NT means something never before revealed, not something hard to understand.

I'm not referring to the word in that sense. I am referring to it in the sense of philosophy and it's a recognized term. In other words, there are some things that are apparently contradictory, but have some reconciliation that we don't know at the moment. It's a matter of intellectual humility to realize that such things exist. God's sovereignty versus man's free will is not fully resolvable with the current pieces to the puzzle.

 

[Gr8grace]

If I were you, I would not try to over-think issues like this to the point where they bother you, if that is true. Some men go where angels fear to tread in terms of doctrine.

Anymore nowadays I just don't try to figure out all of the issues regarding God's sovereignty and man's free will. It is a hopeless mystery.

I have been on both ends of the extreme so I know how both groups think. Calvinists must acknowledge that those who go to eternal punishment have no real choice about the matter in their theology, as regeneration precedes faith. So, whether they deny it or not, they do believe in double predestination.

The Arminian must fear for his salvation as it is all about him and his choices, and his salvation system is anthropocentric, which I know is the greater error. In addition, they must explain how a man dead in his sins can come to Christ. Their doctrine of prevenient grace sounds good but it isn't proveable Scripturally.

I have given up on figuring it all out. I think both sides are in some degree of error and God is bigger than we all think. There are missing pieces of the puzzle. I tend to think the Reformed side has the most pieces, and the better part of the puzzle but there are issues with their view as well. As a general rule, they tend to be more faithful to Scripture though.

I was taught under reformed theology. And salvation was ALWAYS,ALWAYS,ALWAYS understood and taught to be from His sovereignty. So His sovereignty and freewill was always a mystery.

But when I learned that salvation comes through righteousness and justice.......the mystery disappeared.

Freewill and righteous justice make complete and total sense. They go together like peas in a pod.

It makes it easy to say, " mans freewill and God sovereignty co-exist."

For in salvation the righteousness of God is revealed. Rom 1: 16-17,Psalm 9:8

I was always falsely taught that salvation revealed God Sovereignty.

 

[SeaBass]

Calvin is not to blame for what they did. . .

Did the one talent man of his own free will bury the talent and therefore lost or was he predetermined by God to do so and be lost?

Did the other men of their own free will use their talents righteously and therefore saved or predetermined by God to do so and be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

Blaming Calvin again. . .

.....I put blame where it belongs....

Paul did say in Ro 8:5-8 that the mind of the unregenerate man
is set on sin (death),
hostile to God (rebellious),
does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
cannot do so (spiritually powerless), and
cannot please God (unacceptable to God).

If a person of his own free will sets his mind on the flesh then he will mind things of the flesh. What Paul never said is God predetermines for a person that he will set his mind on the flesh and can never choose to change/repent and set his mind on things of the spirit. Man chooses for himself whether he sets his mind on the flesh or on the spirit, this is not a choice God forces upon men.

 

[SeaBass]

Agreed. . .

However, I find that he has revealed the answer to these particular questions.

Rom 9:15 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

The basis is not in this verse but did God ever reveal the basis elsewhere in the bible as to why He has mercy upon some and not others? Or is it just randomness? Or did God leave man in the dark on this basis? Can Calvinism give us the basis or is there a gaping hole in the Calvinistic theology that prevents Calvinists from explaining this?