If God elects people, how can He rightly punish the non-elect?

[valiant]

Once again this is not speaking of physical death, and yes we all backslide at times but you are not going to face spiritual death in the lake of fire because you have repented/confessed of it.

The part you seem to overlook is the part to where it says controls you again, so if you have repented/confessed of it then it has not controlled you again. If it has then you would not give it up and repent of it !!!






The lexicon I use has a wide variation of how the Greek words are used to, and it even breaks it down and shows exactly how it is used in each scripture that it is in. I just gave a small portion of its usage because this is where it says how it was used in James 5:20 and it clearly states the usage in this passage is from eternal death.

Well your lexicon is the one that is wrong if it says the soul dies when the man dies, because the bible refutes that interpretation by the words of the Lord Himself who says that only God can destroy/kill the soul (Matthew 10:28). It does not die when the person dies, as the bible clearly says when man dies only the body dies !!!

It is about destroying the soul because it clearly says that the passage is referring to eternal death, and those who go to hell will be the one's cast into the lake of fire. There is not coming out of punishment once you are sent there, as Jesus clearly shows if you do not obey the Word while you are in the flesh and then die it is to late to be saved after words.

That sleep that is being spoken of is the waiting period tell judgment comes and they are cast into the lake of fire, as nobody is judged immediately after they die. The judgment does not come tell after the 2nd Resurrection, and they sleep awaiting that judgment just like those who die in Christ will sleep tell they are brought up in the 1st Resurrection !!!

None of what you say is in the text. You just read it to suit your own ideas.

 

[valiant]

Rom 9:15 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

The basis is not in this verse but did God ever reveal the basis elsewhere in the bible as to why He has mercy upon some and not others?

Yes He says that it is dependent on His own sovereign choice.

Or is it just randomness?

No it is according to His will.

Or did God leave man in the dark on this basis?

The basis is God's own election.

Can Calvinism give us the basis or is there a gaping hole in the Calvinistic theology that prevents Calvinists from explaining this?

I am not a Calvinist. I believe and expound the Bible.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The bible says that sin was in the world but where there is no law sin is not imputed so until a baby reaches the age of accountability then sin is not imputed.

 

[sparkman]

Could you elaborate? I don't understand what you mean concerning freewill and righteous justice.

I was taught under reformed theology. And salvation was ALWAYS,ALWAYS,ALWAYS understood and taught to be from His sovereignty. So His sovereignty and freewill was always a mystery.

But when I learned that salvation comes through righteousness and justice.......the mystery disappeared.

Freewill and righteous justice make complete and total sense. They go together like peas in a pod.

It makes it easy to say, " mans freewill and God sovereignty co-exist."

For in salvation the righteousness of God is revealed. Rom 1: 16-17,Psalm 9:8

I was always falsely taught that salvation revealed God Sovereignty.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes He says that it is dependent on His own sovereign choice.

This is avoiding the question. What is God's sovereign choice BASED UPON to have mercy upon some and not others?

No it is according to His will.

More avoidance.
What is the basis of God' s will to have mercy upon some and not others?

The basis is God's own election.

More avoidance. This does not answer what basis God uses to decide if one is part of the election or not.

I am not a Calvinist. I believe and expound the Bible.

But you espouse Calvinistic principles rather than biblical ones.

 

[valiant]

This is avoiding the question. What is God's sovereign choice BASED UPON to have mercy upon some and not others?

what He chooses to base it on. He is sovereign.

More avoidance.
What is the basis of God' s will to have mercy upon some and not others?

You will have to ask Him once you are saved.

More avoidance. This does not answer what basis God uses to decide if one is part of the election or not.

I have this funny habit of not thinking that I can tell God what to do. Unlike some.

BY THE WAY ON THIS QUESTION PAUL TAUGHT US TO AVOID THE QUESTION. (ROM 9)

But you espouse Calvinistic principles rather than biblical ones.

So BASICALLY you are saying that Calvinists espouse Biblical principles.

 

[SeaBass]

what He chooses to base it on. He is sovereign.




You will have to ask Him once you are saved.



I have this funny habit of not thinking that I can tell God what to do. Unlike some.

BY THE WAY ON THIS QUESTION PAUL TAUGHT US TO AVOID THE QUESTION. (ROM 9)



So BASICALLY you are saying that Calvinists espouse Biblical principles.

In others words, you cannot give the basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others therefore your Calvinism has provided to its believers a big gaping hole theology that they cannot explain. This gaping hole theology, the inability to explain the basis when the bible DOES give the basis shows that you're espousing Calvinism.

 

[Elin]

You make me laugh. The point God is making in the garden of Eden is about relationships, about knowledge and understanding, about His relationship with us.

Every point has a reason, is there to show something about ourselves.

You have a man-centered view of Scripture.
We aren't the center of the universe, and Scripture is not all about us.

The point in the garden was a trial of their faith and obedience--believing what God said in his command and obeying it--as the angels were tried, and some failed, some did not.
Adam failed the trial, as did those angels, and Adam lost eternal life, setting up the necessity of a second Adam who does not fail the trial and restores what was lost by the first Adam.

God's point in everything is his glory through glorification of his Son.

 

[Elin]

This is avoiding the question. What is God's sovereign choice BASED UPON to have mercy upon some and not others?

The same thing it was based on when he chose Jacob and not Esau--in order that his purpose in election would be accomplished.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

The same thing it was based on when he chose Jacob and not Esau--

Curious, Elin ...

Do you think Esau was rejected to destruction, or just lesser blessing?

 

[Elin]

Curious, Elin ...

Do you think Esau was rejected to destruction, or just lesser blessing?

I'm thinking not chosen as the pro-genitor of God's people, although he was the first-born and should not have been subservient to the younger. . .to show that God's people are not of a natural order but of his sovereign choice.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I'm thinking not chosen as the pro-genitor of God's people, although he was the first-born and should not have been subservient to the younger. . .to show that God's people are not of a natural order but of his sovereign choice.

Do you disagree Esau was blessed by God, regardless of the violation of his birth order according to cultural tradition?

 

[KennethC]

None of what you say is in the text. You just read it to suit your own ideas.

Well that is your opinion that is not right as what I have said is in the text, as the bible does speak on struggling with sin verses continuing to do it willingly. And it does speak on only 2 Resurrections in Revelation, and I give scripture that shows exactly what I am talking about.

As scripture says only God can destroy the soul, not that the soul dies when the man dies !!!

 

[Elin]

Do you disagree Esau was blessed by God, regardless of the violation of his birth order according to cultural tradition?

I can speak only to material blessings, of which Esau enjoyed an abundance.

 

[Gr8grace]

Could you elaborate? I don't understand what you mean concerning freewill and righteous justice.

Sorry Sparkman, I just saw your post. I gotta call you sparky also. Would this be ok? Your kinda a spark around here in a lot of areas,that would be my motivation in that nickname.

Righteous justice. Not arbitrary.

Righteous justice condemned us all. We sinned, He condemned us. And condemnation must precede salvation.

In righteous justice He condemned all, He didn't have to offer salvation, but He did. So righteous justice condemned ALL, Righteous justice has to offer salvation to ALL. He offered us salvation, so He is obliged to follow through on that offer. Righteous justice would have it no other way.

SO......His justice was satisfied on the cross.

Righteous Justice condemned ALL, righteous justice has to offer salvation to ALL.

And we are saved through faith in His Son. If even one man was denied access to faith in His Son, His perfect righteousness would be compromised and He would be UNJUST.

Freewill answers the question why some men are not saved. They reject the Justice of the Cross.

 

[dcontroversal]

None of what you say is in the text. You just read it to suit your own ideas.

Quite regularily I might add!

 

[KennethC]

you can believe your philosophy I prefer to believe the Bible

So do you believe the bible forces people to love God ???


If you believe that then you completely ignore all the scriptures that speak on free will to choose, for even God said "I give you this day life and death, choose life."

 

[KennethC]

Quite regularily I might add!

Once again budging in when you are not even in the conversation and being rude and sarcastic.......

Those are works of the flesh my friend and not fruits of the Spirit !!!

 

[dcontroversal]

So do you believe the bible forces people to love God ???


If you believe that then you completely ignore all the scriptures that speak on free will to choose, for even God said "I give you this day life and death, choose life."

Does not the bible say that love is a commandment? A new commandment that I give unto you........that you love one another as I have loved you!

 

[dcontroversal]

Once again budging in when you are not even in the conversation and being rude and sarcastic.......

Those are works of the flesh my friend and not fruits of the Spirit !!!

Budging in hey? I forget you always walk according to the spirit KEN..........As righteous as you are I am surprised you did not make the bible like Paul, or Jesus or Daniel!

And I wasnt speaking to you...so does that make you guilty of what you accuse me of? Although I am not sure that BUDGING is the right word!