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K
I am going to believe the Holy Spirit and not KennethC 
The Holy Spirit CLEARLY taught eternal security. It has nothing to do with whether one is a Calvinist or an Arminian. It depends solely on the dependability and reliability of God.
The Holy Spirit CLEARLY taught eternal security. It has nothing to do with whether one is a Calvinist or an Arminian. It depends solely on the dependability and reliability of God.
Here is what the Holy Spirit says about falling away that Calvin and Augustine disagree with;
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
The Holy Spirit says some will depart from the faith (fall away) so I will go with Him on this!!!
I must admit I am quite stunned at some of the responses I have read on this thread.... most of them make God sound like a a weak man sitting in heaven willing his creation to accept his 'offer'.. but because they are the ' I am's' he is powerless. Is this really how the bible describes things... does the bible really describe man as the one who will ultimately determine his own salvation... Is it not sad that the cross is not effctive? in that God died for 'all' men yet it is powerless unless the great 'man' decides to go for it?
Rather, the bible describes for us very clearly man's predicament, that is, his corrupted nature, in that he loves his sin and does not seek after God - man is quite happy in his rebellion against God. So no man can complain at the end of the age when he is sent where he actually wants to go. So, it is fair to say that God is just - as the wages of sin is death and we all deserve it. No man chooses good, no not one! Man's good works are as filthy rags!
Yet God has Sovereignly and freely elected some to salvation making the cross actually effective in saving and not merely god hoping it might save. God seeks and God saves.
One point to remember, is that, every decision or choice you make is tied to who you are, that is your nature, the seat of your affections. That is why the bible clearly states that unregenerate mans good work's are as filthy rags.
So can you actually choose that which is morally good...of course not. You need the Holy Spirit to renew your heart first..so that those blind eyes are open and your works are done to glorify God and not yourself or selfish motives.
So to get back to the point... Yes God is just in punishing the non elect..... isn't it amazing in that we all deserve death yet God has predetermined to make the cross effective in saving His lost sheep. As Jesus said:
John 17:6English Standard Version (ESV)
6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
and,,,
John 6 -
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
And....
[h=1]Revelation 17:8English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit[a] and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
Rather, the bible describes for us very clearly man's predicament, that is, his corrupted nature, in that he loves his sin and does not seek after God - man is quite happy in his rebellion against God. So no man can complain at the end of the age when he is sent where he actually wants to go. So, it is fair to say that God is just - as the wages of sin is death and we all deserve it. No man chooses good, no not one! Man's good works are as filthy rags!
Yet God has Sovereignly and freely elected some to salvation making the cross actually effective in saving and not merely god hoping it might save. God seeks and God saves.
One point to remember, is that, every decision or choice you make is tied to who you are, that is your nature, the seat of your affections. That is why the bible clearly states that unregenerate mans good work's are as filthy rags.
So can you actually choose that which is morally good...of course not. You need the Holy Spirit to renew your heart first..so that those blind eyes are open and your works are done to glorify God and not yourself or selfish motives.
So to get back to the point... Yes God is just in punishing the non elect..... isn't it amazing in that we all deserve death yet God has predetermined to make the cross effective in saving His lost sheep. As Jesus said:
John 17:6English Standard Version (ESV)
6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
and,,,
John 6 -
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
And....
[h=1]Revelation 17:8English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit[a] and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
I thought Paul already answered this question...
Romans 9:18-21 (KJV)
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:18-21
Romans 9:18-21 (KJV)
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:18-21
He is giving it according to two different standards.
According to one, he is in compliance and faultless.
According to the other, he is not in compliance and powerless without the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Read the context for stating his view of himself when he was a Pharisee to see its relevance.
According to one, he is in compliance and faultless.
According to the other, he is not in compliance and powerless without the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Read the context for stating his view of himself when he was a Pharisee to see its relevance.
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First, His predetermined calling was not for a certain persons election, but to those who will chose to abide in Him election. When you say it is impossible to stop sinning so how is that fair, I would agree wholeheartedly if that were the final curtain call on sins reign over us. But it is not!
One of the things here is the omniscience of God, in relationship to our free will. Because we know the sun will be in the sky tomorrow doesn't mean that you will have caused it to be there! Even tho God already knows what our free choices will end up becoming, our choices are still free. If our free choices change how the future will be, God already knows that and has known that for all eternity.
Now take that to the Garden of Eden...why go thru any of that with Adam? If God knew the results? Because our will and our actions determine future in realtime and in real effect. So knowing of the results He was not hampered by letting it be offered. Because He has chosen all of His children to be elect. In the knowledge of who will be making those choices correctly, He has never diminished the opportunity for all to receive a equal shot at it. And He never abides in the realtime a conclusion based on His omniscient ability. If we were God we would do just that. But He is God, not only as righteous but also Just. His grace over-rules His own all knowing to allow our real time to exist in the faithful opportunity to receive Him.
His statements are about the end result not the opportunities found before us. "... that 'WHOSOEVER' believeth in Him will not perish but will have everlasting life." John 3:16.
In many scriptures the "all- of- man" is His invite. knowing what happens is different than causing it to happen. Thru humanity we were brought to death thru the sin of Adam. Yet, it is thru Christ we are alive again, and even more so. This is God's plan for all, every single life on planet earth. Yet it is a choice. Knowledge of outcome does not alter the ability of free will to play it's role of future change. Has His Word ever told you that you specifically are one of the non-elect? Has His Word spoken to you of how you are a child of His and He desires to have you with Him? Then that is what we must rest on. and trust in. This argument is Satan's distraction from that open-armed call God is giving to you. Believe with your heart and confess with your lips and be obedient to His voice and you are elect. the stat chart at the end is irrelevant to you.
One of the things here is the omniscience of God, in relationship to our free will. Because we know the sun will be in the sky tomorrow doesn't mean that you will have caused it to be there! Even tho God already knows what our free choices will end up becoming, our choices are still free. If our free choices change how the future will be, God already knows that and has known that for all eternity.
Now take that to the Garden of Eden...why go thru any of that with Adam? If God knew the results? Because our will and our actions determine future in realtime and in real effect. So knowing of the results He was not hampered by letting it be offered. Because He has chosen all of His children to be elect. In the knowledge of who will be making those choices correctly, He has never diminished the opportunity for all to receive a equal shot at it. And He never abides in the realtime a conclusion based on His omniscient ability. If we were God we would do just that. But He is God, not only as righteous but also Just. His grace over-rules His own all knowing to allow our real time to exist in the faithful opportunity to receive Him.
His statements are about the end result not the opportunities found before us. "... that 'WHOSOEVER' believeth in Him will not perish but will have everlasting life." John 3:16.
In many scriptures the "all- of- man" is His invite. knowing what happens is different than causing it to happen. Thru humanity we were brought to death thru the sin of Adam. Yet, it is thru Christ we are alive again, and even more so. This is God's plan for all, every single life on planet earth. Yet it is a choice. Knowledge of outcome does not alter the ability of free will to play it's role of future change. Has His Word ever told you that you specifically are one of the non-elect? Has His Word spoken to you of how you are a child of His and He desires to have you with Him? Then that is what we must rest on. and trust in. This argument is Satan's distraction from that open-armed call God is giving to you. Believe with your heart and confess with your lips and be obedient to His voice and you are elect. the stat chart at the end is irrelevant to you.
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G
2 Cor 5~~14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
The cross worked for all men. That unbeliever who you work with, has all his sins paid for. He just doesn't believe it, nor do you.
The cross was way bigger than just salvation. The cross wiped away ALL sin. So ALL men can approach God..............this is why we don't view men in their depravity, we view men as one whom Christ died for.
This is worthy of study. Not one person goes to the LoF for their sins, sins are all paid for. Evil, that hasn't been paid for. And the evil that hasn't been paid for is the good deeds we do from the flesh.
All sin is evil, but not all evil is sin.
The cross worked for all men. That unbeliever who you work with, has all his sins paid for. He just doesn't believe it, nor do you.
The cross was way bigger than just salvation. The cross wiped away ALL sin. So ALL men can approach God..............this is why we don't view men in their depravity, we view men as one whom Christ died for.
This is worthy of study. Not one person goes to the LoF for their sins, sins are all paid for. Evil, that hasn't been paid for. And the evil that hasn't been paid for is the good deeds we do from the flesh.
All sin is evil, but not all evil is sin.
K
Right there in that same chapter at the end of it;
1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Apostle Paul shows here only persisting and continuing in the doctrine of the gospel of Christ do you receive salvation, those who do not continue will not receive eternal life. Here is another one from Paul to that states this;
Colossians 1:22-23
In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Then here is one from the Apostle James that makes this even more clearer;
[h=1]James 5:19-20
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.[/h]
Here is what the Greek usage for saving the soul from death is used here;
psuché
b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17;ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς,James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20;σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).
Some things we need to place our lives under Dueteronomy 29: 29.
Man can never know or understand everything and all the ways and doings of God. Simply put; ...." The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things that are revealed belong unto us and unto our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."
We can only know what He chooses to reveal to us. Nothing else.
Man can never know or understand everything and all the ways and doings of God. Simply put; ...." The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things that are revealed belong unto us and unto our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."
We can only know what He chooses to reveal to us. Nothing else.
G
I mean every word of it. Its far from everybody being saved. The people who go to the LoF, they get to plead their case of being good enough. They are judged by their DEEDS, not sins, because sins are all paid for.
If sin is paid for then the only deeds left to judge are the self righteous deeds done in the flesh(Our dirty rags/human good)
Our witness is compromised if we think Christ didn't die for ALL sin. And that only some men can be saved.
If sin is paid for then the only deeds left to judge are the self righteous deeds done in the flesh(Our dirty rags/human good)
Our witness is compromised if we think Christ didn't die for ALL sin. And that only some men can be saved.
K
This makes absolutely no sense and is unbiblical !!!
Unbelievers do not have remission for their sins, for they have never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and repented of their sins and thus been baptized into Christ.
The only way to receive remission is by accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior, and trusting in what He said to receive that remission and continue to receive it by walking in the Light/Spirit......
1 John 1:7, Galatians 5:4, Colossians 1:22-23 all three show this standard, as the bible nowhere teaches all sins including future have been already forgiven and covered by His blood, or by a one time repentance. That teaching was started by man and not biblically supported !!!