If God elects people, how can He rightly punish the non-elect?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
He paid for our sins, but he did not put a stop to sin. We still reap what we sow in our personal volition. But we will not be judged for our sin. He paid the Price.

Sin still removes us from fellowship with God. and confessing our sin, is actually giving it back to Him who paid for it. Confession is for the believers benefit......we will live in guilt and fear and worry if we don't confess our sin.

Grieving the Holy Spirit, is when we sin. He is grieving FOR us, not against us.

lets be specific here - Who won't be judged for their sin? And mayI suggest that you have a very unorthodox view of what repentance is... confessing our sin is not giving it back, as if we had lifted a sin here and there of the cross and borrowed it for a while. that's not even scriptural.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Some things we need to place our lives under Dueteronomy 29: 29.

Man can never know or understand everything and all the ways and doings of God. Simply put; ...." The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things that are revealed belong unto us and unto our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."

We can only know what He chooses to reveal to us. Nothing else.
Agreed. . .

However, I find that he has revealed the answer to these particular questions.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
lets be specific here - Who won't be judged for their sin? And mayI suggest that you have a very unorthodox view of what repentance is... confessing our sin is not giving it back, as if we had lifted a sin here and there of the cross and borrowed it for a while. that's not even scriptural.
Not one person is going to be judged for their sin. Christ took the judgement for the whole world.

We have unbelief, and self righteous deeds that have not been dealt with yet.

We have a high view of sin and a low view of the Son in todays world.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
My wife has something bubbling on the stove for dinner. Spuds are always a good thing. Had some hash browns this morning.
your wife.... ♥

i think my kids heard that line in a movie?
it's their classic non-sequitur for when things are getting a bit too heated. :)
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
Not one person is going to be judged for their sin. Christ took the judgement for the whole world.

We have unbelief, and self righteous deeds that have not been dealt with yet.

We have a high view of sin and a low view of the Son in todays world.

I think your view belittles the work of Jesus and the price he paid.

By the way unbeleif and self righteous deeds are sin...
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Not one person is going to be judged for their sin. Christ took the judgement for the whole world.

We have unbelief, and self righteous deeds that have not been dealt with yet.

We have a high view of sin and a low view of the Son in todays world.



Romans 2:6-10


Who will render to every man according to his deeds:



To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;



But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
I think your view belittles the work of Jesus and the price he paid.

By the way unbeleif and self righteous deeds are sin...
That's interesting. Thanks for the discussion Brother.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
Romans 2:6-10


Who will render to every man according to his deeds:



To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;



But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Thanks Ken.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
Right there in that same chapter at the end of it;

1 Timothy 4:16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Apostle Paul shows here only persisting and continuing in the doctrine of the gospel of Christ do you receive salvation, those who do not continue will not receive eternal life.
You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. You clearly do not know the breadth of Scripture's teaching on salvation. If I say to someone, do these exercises and you will make yourself fitter, it does not mean that they are not already fit.

Salvation is OF GOD. Once we come to Jesus Christ and truly believe into Him we are saved with an everlasting salvation (Tit 3.5; Eph 2.8-9). We are accounted as righteous before God, reconciled to Him and born of the Spirit. This status is permanent. It means we are saved once for all.

Once we have entered under this status our Saviour begins the next step, His work of saving us from the power of sin through His cross (1 Cor 1.18). From the moment of becoming saved from the condemnation of sin we start being saved from the power of sin. That is what Paul is talking about here.. How do we ensure that our lives are gradually saved from the power of sin? By taking heed to our ways according to His word. It is not a question of 'gaining salvation' but of experiencing continuing salvation BECAUSE WE HAVE ALREADT BEEN SAVED.

Here is another one from Paul to that states this; Colossians 1:22-23
In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Well that is so true. The test of whether someone is truly saved is that they will continue in the faith grounded and settled, and will not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel. That is what our Saviour has promised. That we will never perish and none shall pluck us from His hand. They may appear by men's standards to backslide, but their Saviour will be with them and keep their faith settled in Him. THAT IS WHAT SALVATION IS ALL ABOUT. The Saviour keeping those who are His and never failing them or letting them go.,

Read the parable of the sower. Those sown in GOOD GROUND are fruitful in the end. Those who are bad ground cease to bear fruit, even though for a while they may seem fruitful.

T
hen here is one from the Apostle James that makes this even more clearer; James 5:19-20

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Very true. A Christian who wanders may even find himself in a position where God will take his life so that he will not be condemned with the world (1 Cor 11.29-32). But if a fellow-Christian steps in and prevents it by bringing about the man's restoration, he will save him from that death. It is speaking about physical death not eternal death. Uzzah in the Old Testament may well have been 'saved'. But he still died for touching the Ark. Ananias and Sapphyra may well have been saved but they died for lying to the Holy Spirit. None of these necessarily suffered eternal death.


Here is what the Greek usage for saving the soul from death is used here; psuché

And what is psuche? It is man's living breath (Gen 2.7). His inner life. His flesh may be destroyed but he will be saved (compare 1 Cor 5.5).

b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2;
Do you regularly invent texts? LOL

 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
Romans 2:6-10


Who will render to every man according to his deeds:



To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;



But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Haven't you caught on yet? Roman 1.18-3.19 is demonstrating that ALL are under sin. The person described here is a theoretical case for the sake of argument. He does not exist. The only one who CAN live like this is the true Christian described in Rom 3.24-8.39.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
KennethC said:
A) Holy Spirit, Jesus, and Paul say many will fall away/depart from the faith
"The faith" means the teachings of the faith--doctrine.

Falling away is falling away from a profession of faith.
B) Calvin and Augustine who started the osas and eternal security doctrines says falling away is impossible
Do you believe A or B ???
I believe C--that it was a profession of faith away from which they fell, not true faith (1Jn 2:19).
Again you try to worm your way around the question.......

It is not just a profession of faith and not true faith they fell away from,
You did not address 1Jn 2:19.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. You clearly do not know the breadth of Scripture's teaching on salvation. If I say to someone, do these exercises and you will make yourself fitter, it does not mean that they are not already fit.

Salvation is OF GOD. Once we come to Jesus Christ and truly believe into Him we are saved with an everlasting salvation (Tit 3.5; Eph 2.8-9). We are accounted as righteous before God, reconciled to Him and born of the Spirit. This status is permanent. It means we are saved once for all.

Once we have entered under this status our Saviour begins the next step, His work of saving us from the power of sin through His cross (1 Cor 1.18). From the moment of becoming saved from the condemnation of sin we start being saved from the power of sin. That is what Paul is talking about here.. How do we ensure that our lives are gradually saved from the power of sin? By taking heed to our ways according to His word. It is not a question of 'gaining salvation' but of experiencing continuing salvation BECAUSE WE HAVE ALREADT BEEN SAVED.



Well that is so true. The test of whether someone is truly saved is that they will continue in the faith grounded and settled, and will not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel. That is what our Saviour has promised. That we will never perish and none shall pluck us from His hand. They may appear by men's standards to backslide, but their Saviour will be with them and keep their faith settled in Him. THAT IS WHAT SALVATION IS ALL ABOUT. The Saviour keeping those who are His and never failing them or letting them go.,

Read the parable of the sower. Those sown in GOOD GROUND are fruitful in the end. Those who are bad ground cease to bear fruit, even though for a while they may seem fruitful.

T

Very true. A Christian who wanders may even find himself in a position where God will take his life so that he will not be condemned with the world (1 Cor 11.29-32). But if a fellow-Christian steps in and prevents it by bringing about the man's restoration, he will save him from that death. It is speaking about physical death not eternal death. Uzzah in the Old Testament may well have been 'saved'. But he still died for touching the Ark. Ananias and Sapphyra may well have been saved but they died for lying to the Holy Spirit. None of these necessarily suffered eternal death.




And what is psuche? It is man's living breath (Gen 2.7). His inner life. His flesh may be destroyed but he will be saved (compare 1 Cor 5.5).



Do you regularly invent texts? LOL


No, James 5:19-20 is not talking about physical death !!!

It is talking about the soul being destroyed in the eternal death in the lake of fire, and the Greek usage of soul here clearly teaches that.

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 is not speaking of physical death either, for it clearly says they will be condemned if they eat of an unworthy manner. Meaning they who do not walk in the faith properly are spiritual dead/condemned !!!
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
your wife.... ♥

i think my kids heard that line in a movie?
it's their classic non-sequitur for when things are getting a bit too heated. :)
Then there's "How 'bout them Cowboys?". . .referring to the Dallss, TX team.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
You did not address 1Jn 2:19.
This has been handle extensively in the past....

This scripture has nothing to do with those who fall away, depart from the faith do to cares of the world (sins) or fall to false teaching.

This passage is clearly speaking of forms of the antichrist that came in with the purpose to defile the gospel of Christ, as the previous verse 18 shows this. You can not compare weak brethren in the faith to forms of the antichrist, as weak members of the faith do not have the purpose to defile the word of God. They instead because they are still struggling in the milk they can easily be influenced to be drawn away from false teaching, or fall away in a hard time.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
No, James 5:19-20 is not talking about physical death !!!

It is talking about the soul being destroyed in the eternal death in the lake of fire, and the Greek usage of soul here clearly teaches that.
psuche is a very innocuous word and simply indicates the inner man, the man himself. It has a wide variety of meanings. James gives no hint that he is talking about anything but physical death. Thus you are reading into Scripture what you WANT to see to support you case which in fact falls apart on examination. If James meant that why did he not say Hell? He uses the word earlier..

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 is not speaking of physical death either, for it clearly says they will be condemned if they eat of an unworthy manner. Meaning they who do not walk in the faith properly are spiritual dead/condemned !!!
LOL talk about wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction. The literal Greek is 'many sleep'. Sleep always refers to physical death. BOOM BOOM
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Haven't you caught on yet? Roman 1.18-3.19 is demonstrating that ALL are under sin. The person described here is a theoretical case for the sake of argument. He does not exist. The only one who CAN live like this is the true Christian described in Rom 3.24-8.39.

This is not a theoretical case in Romans 2:6-10.........

Apostle Paul is clearly teaching how we are to walk in the faith if we have eternal life abiding in us, and it is only those who continue in obeying the teachings of the Lord in the faith.

Those however who know the truth of salvation in the Lord, but continue to still sinful lifestyles and not obey how to walk in the faith will not receive salvation.

Trying to explain away an actual situation mentioned in the bible does no justice to God's word.

If God says it will happen, it will happen !!!
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
You did not address 1Jn 2:19.
This has been handle extensively in the past....

This scripture has nothing to do with those who fall away
, depart from the faith do to cares of the world (sins) or fall to false teaching.
Then you're not talking about permanent apostasy which reveals counterfeit faith.

This passage is clearly speaking of forms of the antichrist that came in with the purpose to defile the gospel of Christ, as the previous verse 18 shows this. You can not compare weak brethren in the faith to forms of the antichrist, as weak members of the faith do not have the purpose to defile the word of God. They instead because
they are still struggling in the milk they can easily be influenced to be drawn away from false teaching, or
fall away in a hard time.
That's not permanent apostasy, which reveals counterfeit faith.

1Jn 2:19 is speaking of the permanent apostasy of counterfeit faith and the reason God ordains it.
Permanent apostasy is to die in apostasy.
 
Last edited:
K

KennethC

Guest
psuche is a very innocuous word and simply indicates the inner man, the man himself. It has a wide variety of meanings. James gives no hint that he is talking about anything but physical death. Thus you are reading into Scripture what you WANT to see to support you case which in fact falls apart on examination. If James meant that why did he not say Hell? He uses the word earlier..



LOL talk about wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction. The literal Greek is 'many sleep'. Sleep always refers to physical death. BOOM BOOM

Wrong again as the Greek word psuche (soul) and its usage can clearly be looked up in a Greek usage study;

b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17;ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς,James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20;σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).

This comes from Greek Lexicon that shows how the words are used...........

God is the only one that can destroy the soul, not man, and this is clearly shown in Matthew 10:28 and the bible clearly shows also this is done in the lake of fire.

I am not wrestling with scripture as you are the one that is ignoring that it clearly says they are eating and drinking damnation/condemnation to themselves. This can not be possible if there is not condemnation to those in Christ, but there still is condemnation to those who sow to the flesh or as in walk by the flesh and not by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 11:29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Then you're not talking about permanent apostasy which reveals counterfeit faith.


That's not permanent apostasy, which reveals counterfeit faith.

1Jn 2:19 is speaking of the permanent apostasy of counterfeit fiath and the reason God ordains it.

Once again it is speaking of the spirit of antichrist (false teachers) who came in to pervert the gospel of Christ !!!

Those who fall away do to the false teaching, or return back to a sinful lifestyle are not false teachers that are perverting the gospel. They are ones who have either fallen to that apostasy because they were weak in the faith, or they get drawn away by giving into their lusts again.

James clearly teaches of this in James 1:13-15 where he says if those who are drawn away by their lusts and let them get full grown again to where they control them again it brings forth eternal death.