IF 'THE DEAD' don't rise then who do we rule and reign over?
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NOPE. 1 Cor 15:23 says clearly that all believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected 'when He comes' back at the Second Advent.
Those who came out of their graves, and Lazarus, and all the others that Jesus and the apostles raised from the dead died again.
If any of them were given glorified bodies, 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be correct. I refuse to believe any verse is untrue.
Are you living in a glorified body right now? If not, and of course you are NOT, then it is NOT present. You are confused.
Wow. What a confused bunch of words.
Those who came out of their graves, and Lazarus, and all the others that Jesus and the apostles raised from the dead died again.
If any of them were given glorified bodies, 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be correct. I refuse to believe any verse is untrue.
Are you living in a glorified body right now? If not, and of course you are NOT, then it is NOT present. You are confused.
Wow. What a confused bunch of words.
1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?[/QUOTE]
Forget v.35. The issue is WHEN people are resurrected. That is stated in v.23 which plainly says that all believers will be resurrected when He comes back at the Second Advent.
Since you aren't interested in 1 Cor 15:23 which covers the resurrection of all the saved, there's nothing more to discuss.
All unbelievers will be raised up for the GWT judgment. That is found by reading through Rev 20.
Forget v.35. The issue is WHEN people are resurrected. That is stated in v.23 which plainly says that all believers will be resurrected when He comes back at the Second Advent.
Since you aren't interested in 1 Cor 15:23 which covers the resurrection of all the saved, there's nothing more to discuss.
All unbelievers will be raised up for the GWT judgment. That is found by reading through Rev 20.
Apologies, sometimes those revisions go way wrong, this being an example. But I suspect you knew that already.
Death of the SAVED and death of the UNSAVED
As for your question to me
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God is a CONSUMING fire.
I understand. BUT you don't think all dead are the same do you? So, THEY AREN'T ALL speaking to THE SAME KIND OF DEAD are they?
There are those who DIED under the law.
There are those who died as heathen.
There are those who died under grace.
There are those who died deceived
There are those who resurrected having been 'saved'.
There are those who resurrect NOT HAVING BEEN SAVED.
There are those who resurrect already born from above..
There are those who wont be resurrected until the GWTJ
Do you know the differences between their death and resurrections or do you just lump them all together?
Many many years ago I didn't know the difference either. Milk vs Meat.
So if you just explain the differences between them to me, we can see where we differ because we aren't getting anywhere this way.
So, some of them died under the law and would be resurrected under grace.
Some died unsaved and resurrect the same, but would be 'saved' in Rev 20, though some would not
They can't all rise at the same time either, because some already have.
Death of the SAVED and death of the UNSAVED
As for your question to me
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God is a CONSUMING fire.
I understand. BUT you don't think all dead are the same do you? So, THEY AREN'T ALL speaking to THE SAME KIND OF DEAD are they?
There are those who DIED under the law.
There are those who died as heathen.
There are those who died under grace.
There are those who died deceived
There are those who resurrected having been 'saved'.
There are those who resurrect NOT HAVING BEEN SAVED.
There are those who resurrect already born from above..
There are those who wont be resurrected until the GWTJ
Do you know the differences between their death and resurrections or do you just lump them all together?
Many many years ago I didn't know the difference either. Milk vs Meat.
So if you just explain the differences between them to me, we can see where we differ because we aren't getting anywhere this way.
So, some of them died under the law and would be resurrected under grace.
Some died unsaved and resurrect the same, but would be 'saved' in Rev 20, though some would not
They can't all rise at the same time either, because some already have.
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And NO, 1 Corinth 15:23 does not clearly say that, it only says that to those who refuse it to say anything else.
but you are going wrong somewhere because you are presently VOIDING OUT
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
You are also PRESENTLY VOIDING OUT
1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
You are also presently voiding out
1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Was Peter 'asleep' no. Was Paul? no. Was John? no
Was Abel? YES Was John the Baptist? YES Was Ruth YES.
Christ became the firstfruits of THEM THAT SLEPT. SINCE there were those sleeping, HE BECAME THE FIRST FRUITS OF THEM. That was a resurrection of the dead BUT THESE DEAD were resurrected as SAVED, by the blood of the Lamb slain washing them clean. That is why he had to have preached and they would have had to have heard and come to faith and when the 3 days was up He was the first to rise up.
The next group of 'dead' to be resurrected won't be resurrected as 'saved' because all those who have been saved ever since haven't gone into the grave, but have gone to heaven (though the 'sown carcass' goes into the grave)
Christ is the only one WHOS FLESH DIDN'T SEE DECAY AND WHOS FLESH RESURRECTED. He, being GODS only begotten (virgin birth) and the first begotten (in the beginning was the word and the was with God and the word was God) COULD DO THAT.
Everyone else is changed/receives their spiritual body/imperishable and is raised either mortal or immortal
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
SO they couldn't DIE twice and their flesh and blood couldn't be used twice. They were raised up in Spiritual bodies and we KNOW THIS BECAUSE they appeared to many, not every.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
but not unto every.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
but you are going wrong somewhere because you are presently VOIDING OUT
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
You are also PRESENTLY VOIDING OUT
1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
You are also presently voiding out
1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Was Peter 'asleep' no. Was Paul? no. Was John? no
Was Abel? YES Was John the Baptist? YES Was Ruth YES.
Christ became the firstfruits of THEM THAT SLEPT. SINCE there were those sleeping, HE BECAME THE FIRST FRUITS OF THEM. That was a resurrection of the dead BUT THESE DEAD were resurrected as SAVED, by the blood of the Lamb slain washing them clean. That is why he had to have preached and they would have had to have heard and come to faith and when the 3 days was up He was the first to rise up.
The next group of 'dead' to be resurrected won't be resurrected as 'saved' because all those who have been saved ever since haven't gone into the grave, but have gone to heaven (though the 'sown carcass' goes into the grave)
Christ is the only one WHOS FLESH DIDN'T SEE DECAY AND WHOS FLESH RESURRECTED. He, being GODS only begotten (virgin birth) and the first begotten (in the beginning was the word and the was with God and the word was God) COULD DO THAT.
Everyone else is changed/receives their spiritual body/imperishable and is raised either mortal or immortal
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
SO they couldn't DIE twice and their flesh and blood couldn't be used twice. They were raised up in Spiritual bodies and we KNOW THIS BECAUSE they appeared to many, not every.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
but not unto every.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
ARE you going to die and go into the grave and await the return of Christ?
I AM NOT so while you are rotting and decaying away in that body you think will be resurrected when Christ returns I will have dropped off all but a 'seed' of this flesh and gone in my spiritual GLORIFIED body to be with the Lord. SO I HAVE NEVER SAID I WAS IN MY GLORIFIED BODY RIGHT NOW
THAT IS PURELY ABOUT YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING. IT IS NOT ME WHO IS CONFUSED, it is you who is ignorant of Gods Truth.
I AM NOT so while you are rotting and decaying away in that body you think will be resurrected when Christ returns I will have dropped off all but a 'seed' of this flesh and gone in my spiritual GLORIFIED body to be with the Lord. SO I HAVE NEVER SAID I WAS IN MY GLORIFIED BODY RIGHT NOW
THAT IS PURELY ABOUT YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING. IT IS NOT ME WHO IS CONFUSED, it is you who is ignorant of Gods Truth.
The verse says "able to destroy soul". It does not say WILL destroy souls. And there are no other verses that say WILL destroy souls.
The saved dead will receive glorified bodies. The unsaved dead will have their physical bodies die again. So they aren't th same in that sense. Not sure what you are referring to.
Again, I see only the saved dead and the unsaved dead.
I think this is irrelevant. There are only saved and unsaved people when they die. Their future is set in stone.
I don't see this as relevant. There are only saved and unsaved dead.
I don't believe the word 'saved' should include quote marks.
Right. These are the unsaved.
These are the saved.
These are the unsaved.
All the unsaved will be resurrected back into their former physical bodies, only to physically die again. That is why the lake of fire is also called the "second death".
I think this is immaterial. Jesus fulfilled the Law. It's all grace now. Even those saved in the OT by faith. Rom 3,4.
[QUOETR]Some died unsaved and resurrect the same, but would be 'saved' in Rev 20, though some would not[/QUOTE]
No unsaved person "would be saved" in Rev 20". I don't know where you think that is taught.
I don't believe that any human being has been resurrected yet. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us that "those who belong to Him" which means EVERY believer (saved person) from Adam forward will be resurrected/changed "when He comes" which is the Second Advent.
Yes, there were people who "came out of their graves" or were brought back to life, both in the OT and during Jesus' time on earth. But there is no reason to think that any of them received a resurrection (glorified body) body. Because 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't allow for that.
The saved dead will receive glorified bodies. The unsaved dead will have their physical bodies die again. So they aren't th same in that sense. Not sure what you are referring to.
Again, I see only the saved dead and the unsaved dead.
I think this is irrelevant. There are only saved and unsaved people when they die. Their future is set in stone.
I don't see this as relevant. There are only saved and unsaved dead.
I don't believe the word 'saved' should include quote marks.
Right. These are the unsaved.
These are the saved.
These are the unsaved.
All the unsaved will be resurrected back into their former physical bodies, only to physically die again. That is why the lake of fire is also called the "second death".
I think this is immaterial. Jesus fulfilled the Law. It's all grace now. Even those saved in the OT by faith. Rom 3,4.
[QUOETR]Some died unsaved and resurrect the same, but would be 'saved' in Rev 20, though some would not[/QUOTE]
No unsaved person "would be saved" in Rev 20". I don't know where you think that is taught.
I don't believe that any human being has been resurrected yet. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us that "those who belong to Him" which means EVERY believer (saved person) from Adam forward will be resurrected/changed "when He comes" which is the Second Advent.
Yes, there were people who "came out of their graves" or were brought back to life, both in the OT and during Jesus' time on earth. But there is no reason to think that any of them received a resurrection (glorified body) body. Because 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't allow for that.
FreeGrace2 said:
So I WAS right. You have the dead rising before Christ. Boy, do you have it backwards.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This verse should settle things.
Of course I see only in one direction. Scripture.
Yep, like a number of people during Jesus' time on earth, and even in the OT.
Here is the real question to answer: did Lazarus receive an imperishable body then or not? If he did, prove it from Scripture, not from opinion.
I have to wonder why it seems you don't believe 1 Cor 15:23. Could you explain that?
So I WAS right. You have the dead rising before Christ. Boy, do you have it backwards.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This verse should settle things.
Of course I see only in one direction. Scripture.
Yep, like a number of people during Jesus' time on earth, and even in the OT.
Here is the real question to answer: did Lazarus receive an imperishable body then or not? If he did, prove it from Scripture, not from opinion.
I have to wonder why it seems you don't believe 1 Cor 15:23. Could you explain that?
FreeGrace2 said:
Are you living in a glorified body right now? If not, and of course you are NOT, then it is NOT present. You are confused.
I asked you a question, and you reply WITH another question??? That is not how this works. Answer my question, please.
You are very confused. I don't think I will be rotting and decaying away in my dead body. I will be with Christ, face to face with Him when I die. And my resurrection will be with "those who belong to Him", which means EVERY saved person from Adam on. Regardless of how you misunderstand it.
Are you living in a glorified body right now? If not, and of course you are NOT, then it is NOT present. You are confused.
I asked you a question, and you reply WITH another question??? That is not how this works. Answer my question, please.
You are very confused. I don't think I will be rotting and decaying away in my dead body. I will be with Christ, face to face with Him when I die. And my resurrection will be with "those who belong to Him", which means EVERY saved person from Adam on. Regardless of how you misunderstand it.
Who is the Israel being talked about..
(Romans 9:4-8) "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; {5} Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {6} Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: {7} Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. {8} That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
The Book of Revelation identifies the 12 tribe of each of the sets of people who make up the 144,000..
They are not of the 144,000.. Neither are they of the Saints who take part in the first reasurection upon the second coming of Jesus.. And if these nations refuse to come to Jerusalem to observe the feast of tabernacles they will be struck with the plague that destroyed the army of the beast on the day of the Messiah's return..
(Zechariah 14:16-18) "¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. {17} And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. {18} And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."
I don't believe the empire of the beast covers the entire world.. It is clear that the survivors of the nations cannot have accepted the Mark of the Beast.. They would be destroyed during the wrath if they did..
(Romans 9:4-8) "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; {5} Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {6} Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: {7} Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. {8} That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
The Book of Revelation identifies the 12 tribe of each of the sets of people who make up the 144,000..
They are not of the 144,000.. Neither are they of the Saints who take part in the first reasurection upon the second coming of Jesus.. And if these nations refuse to come to Jerusalem to observe the feast of tabernacles they will be struck with the plague that destroyed the army of the beast on the day of the Messiah's return..
(Zechariah 14:16-18) "¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. {17} And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. {18} And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."
I don't believe the empire of the beast covers the entire world.. It is clear that the survivors of the nations cannot have accepted the Mark of the Beast.. They would be destroyed during the wrath if they did..
No..
You are projecting that position upon me unjustly.. In the OT times the Jews had a King they had priests and they had normal Jewish populace.. They where One people united by God under the Law.. BUT with different roles.. Likewise in the 1000 year reign of Jesus there will be a King ,,, The KING OF KINGS himself and resurrected Saints who shall be a priesthood ruling the world with Jesus and the Jewish descendants of the 144.000 redeemed who will live in the 1000 year kingdom that will cover the lands defined by God when He gave that promise to Abraham in the O T..
So stop with this false representation of my position..
What about all those who's names were not found written in the book?
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
GOD a CONSUMING FIRE - DEVOURED THEM whose number is as the sand of the sea.
What exactly do you think that means?