If the saved that is dead is in heaven ,With GOD ,Why dose the BIBLE say that the dead can not PRAISE the LORD .

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EternalFire

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
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Could you please present the biblical verses that say Elijah and Moses actually went to "heaven?"
2 Kings 2:1: And it came about when the Lord was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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Notice Paul said absent the body present to the Lord. He's speaking about the faithfull.

Ecclesiastes isn't discriminating and the Word 'God' is used.

It is immediate. No reason to think either of the authors mean otherwise.

Both statements are true of course and they are resolved easily. At the moment of death Our soul is judged. Hopefully 'God' is your Lord.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
The ones before the throne are in heaven (Rev 6 or so) That is BEFORE THE resurrection after the mil.

Stop acting like there is nothing there.
..and the comma changed to make Jesus words on the cross mean the opposite is appalling,

We can see why the warning is there against changing the bible.
Be appalled if you like, I made no mention of the verse you're referring to. Since punctuation like commas were added much later than the early writings. Emphasis on "added". There is no need to argue about something that is not even a part of the early text. JMO

However, I fail to see how anyone could refute what Jesus said to Mary after he arose:

John 20:1-17 ‘Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God’” (bolded for clarity)

In light of the above verse, the comma placement is a redundant argument. IMO
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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I am affiliated with Christ's body.

Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it (I Corinthians 12:27).
Deflect.
You are unwilling to be honest.
That is not God friend.

You said many groups agree with your doctrine.

But you distance yourself from identity.
Not honest.
I asked a very simple question but you hide from answering.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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Be appalled if you like, I made no mention of the verse you're referring to. Since punctuation like commas were added much later than the early writings. Emphasis on "added". There is no need to argue about something that is not even a part of the early text. JMO

However, I fail to see how anyone could refute what Jesus said to Mary after he arose:

John 20:1-17 ‘Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God’” (bolded for clarity)

In light of the above verse, the comma placement is a redundant argument. IMO
Paradise was/is adjacent to hell . They could see each other.
That is an obstacle to your doctrine.

But I can defend against your changed bible without knowing what denomination you are ,and ashamed of revealing.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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Luke 23
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise


Even though you change the comma,the thief requested to be with Jesus WHEN.....

So "TODAY " ties in with "when".

Jesus went to paradise as did the patriarchs as described in the rich man/ Lazarus.

No matter WHERE you put the comma,if the thief was "with" at death(and he was) THAT DAY,then they BOTH went to paradise WHERE ABRAHAM WAS DEAD AND YET NOT ASLEEP.
....and paradise was not in heaven.
your deal is impossible sir.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Paradise was/is adjacent to hell . They could see each other.
That is an obstacle to your doctrine.

But I can defend against your changed bible without knowing what denomination you are ,and ashamed of revealing.
Proverbs 26:7
 
Aug 14, 2019
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Jesus is conceived assumed to His divinity. That means He is conceived in Glory. He let that Glory be seen at the Transfiguration.
If Jesus is conceived with a glorified soul then Paradise is a state of being as well as a place, Paradise being wherever He is. He could say 'today' to the theif.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I do not believe that they are in Heaven myself ,Neither do I believe that the BIBLE teaches , that they are in Heaven ,
"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:"

"But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it.

All those 'under the earth' is in reference to those spirits who died in their sins, who are in Hades and who are conscious and aware.

"And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

These under the altar in heaven are the spirits of the righteous who are conscious and aware having a conversation with the Lord.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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if it were not for the internet we would be without the knowledge that the media has gone comp
Jesus is conceived assumed to His divinity. That means He is conceived in Glory. He let that Glory be seen at the Transfiguration.
If Jesus is conceived with a glorified soul then Paradise is a state of being as well as a place, Paradise being wherever He is. He could say 'today' to the theif.
nope.
conjecture
 

EternalFire

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
449
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Deflect.
You are unwilling to be honest.
That is not God friend.

You said many groups agree with your doctrine.

But you distance yourself from identity.
Not honest.
I asked a very simple question but you hide from answering.
Perhaps this one will help you identify some of the groups.

 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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""What part Absolutely""

Show me "paradise is a state of being" from the bible
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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What is important is to get at the root of offshoot doctrines.
They all stream from a certain point of view.

This "conditional immorality " appears to be one of those offshoots.
They can not accept (insert some issue),THEREFORE they proceed.
It almost always the case.
"I cant accept eternal torment
so there must be some way to disprove it"
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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Now we get other ideas.
There is no "eternal spirit" they say.
(The next "logical" step)
Once I set my course,and lay it out on the chart, it better be correct. If a couple degrees off ,I will hit Cuba instead of New York every time I leave England.
Just a slight miscalculation is disastrous.
The bible is like that.
One comma misplaced,...bingo ....it leads to the great coverup.
The Streisand effect.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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Mike brown does a good job countering the "mean ole God" salve.
Man is in the comfort business
God is in the holiness/dilemma/sin business.

 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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What is the root of conditional immorality?

Seeking comfort.
God can not be so mean as to sentence man to eternal torment.
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:"

"But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it.

All those 'under the earth' is in reference to those spirits who died in their sins, who are in Hades and who are conscious and aware.

"And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

ECC 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.
PAUL AND DAVID ARE IN THE GRAVES TILL YESUAH COMES AND RESURECTS THEM, IT EVEN TELLS YOU THAT DAVID THE KING HAS NOT ASCENDED TO HEAVEN, IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AFTER HE HAD BEEN DEAD FOR MANY MANY YEARS, HE is in HIS GRAVE LIKE PAUL AND THE REST OF US WHEN WE DIE.
These under the altar in heaven are the spirits of the righteous who are conscious and aware having a conversation with the Lord.