IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then

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Endoscopy

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http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/35/

The Pre-Tribulation View
The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a "translation coming" (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) in which the Lord comes for His church, taking her to His Father's House (John 14:3). However, at Christ's Second Coming with His saints, He descends from heaven to set up His Messianic Kingdom on earth (Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:27-31). The differences between the two events are harmonized naturally by the "pre-trib" position, while other views are not able to ac count comfortably for such differences.

A New Testament Mystery

Paul speaks of the Rapture as a "mystery" (1 Corinthians 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Colossians 1:26). The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Daniel 12:1-3; Zechariah 12:10; 14:4). In fact, the oldest prophecy uttered by a prophet was given before the flood of Noah and was of the Second Coming! It was given by Enoch, quoted in Jude 14-15.

The movement of the believer at the Rapture is from earth to heaven; at the Second Coming it is from heaven to earth. At the Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), while at the Second Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thessalonians 3:13).

Post-tribulation Problems

One of the strengths of the pre-trib view is that it is better able to harmonize the many events of end-time prophecy because of the above distinctions. There are some awkward difficulties with the post-tribulational view:

1) The post-tribulation view requires that the church be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27), even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Dan 9:24 indicates that all 70 weeks are for Israel. We believe the church must depart prior to the 70th week, before the final seven-year period (see our briefing package, Daniel's 70 Weeks, for further study).

2) The post-tribulation view denies the New Testament teaching of imminency--that Christ could come at any moment--since there are intervening events required in that view. We believe there are no signs that must precede the Rapture.

3) The post-tribulation view has difficulties with who will populate the Millennium4 if the Rapture and the Second Coming occur at essentially the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the Rapture and all unbelievers are judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's Kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the Millennium.

4) Similarly, post-tribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the Second Coming in Matthew 25:3- 46. Where would the believers in mortal bodies come from if they are raptured at the Second Coming? Who would be able to enter into Christ's Kingdom?

5) The Bride of Christ, the church, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Revelation 19:7-8, 14) before the Second Coming, but how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on the earth awaiting the Second Coming? If the Rapture of the church takes place at the Second Coming, then how does the Bride (the church) also come with Christ at His Return?
You left out the mid trib version.
 

Endoscopy

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He told them to build it.
That is humorous. Soloman yes. The second temple no. They made the necessary clothing, jeweled chest plate, items used in the sacrifices, etc. They are preparing to do the same today. All physical preperations have been ready for years. Getting authorization to start building is the only thing left! While it is a secular nation the rabbis have tremendous clout. Visited there several times for work. Multi week visits. The longest was 6 weeks. Fell in love with falefal
 

Endoscopy

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Yes....quick copy and paste. Not comprehensive.
I watched a 2 sequential videos of a discussion about the 3 versions. 3 ministers with each defending one view. It was interesting. All agreed the rapture pre trib removing Christians from the tribulation was the one they would prefer.
 

Endoscopy

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The holy place is where the Lambs blood was shed..... get it the Lambs blood.

Once a year, on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, the high priest was permitted to enter the small, windowless enclosure to burn incense and sprinkle the blood of a sacrificial animal on the mercy seat of the Ark.
The holy place spoken of in this discussion is inside the temple where the holy of holies is. That is where the holy place of the abomination of desolation is to take place. One concept is the antichrist will enter there and proclaim himself God.
 

KJV1611

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Nov 23, 2013
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The holy place spoken of in this discussion is inside the temple where the holy of holies is. That is where the holy place of the abomination of desolation is to take place. One concept is the antichrist will enter there and proclaim himself God.
That’s s fairy tale Endo, couldn’t be farther from the truth.

We know for a fact that the Jews rejecting and killing Christ was the abomination that left them desolate.
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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The holy place is where the Lambs blood was shed..... get it the Lambs blood.

Once a year, on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, the high priest was permitted to enter the small, windowless enclosure to burn incense and sprinkle the blood of a sacrificial animal on the mercy seat of the Ark.

That temporal holy place is used represent as shadow of the actual holy unseen place, the eternal not seen .

Blood as that seen the temporal is used as a metaphor in various parables. While the life of the flesh is in the blood that life is spiritual essence of life , The mercy seat as that seen is also set aside as holy to represent the unseen mercy of God.

They are not the Holy place but again point to it

God is not a man as us and neither is there a daysman (fleshly mediator) set between God not seen and man seen.

What you offered represents a ceremonial law as shadow used in ceremonies that speak of the suffering of Christ beforehand of the good things to come. Preaching the gospel. The eternal substance is found in Christ, not seen. We walk by faith and not by sight.
 

Endoscopy

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That’s s fairy tale Endo, couldn’t be farther from the truth.

We know for a fact that the Jews rejecting and killing Christ was the abomination that left them desolate.
Go take a long walk on a short pier. I don't like e. being called a liar!!!

The abomination of desolation is part of Revelation written after Jesus was crucified. Most likely the last book written. Get your facts straight before putting your foot in your mouth!!
 

KJV1611

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Nov 23, 2013
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Go take a long walk on a short pier. I don't like e. being called a liar!!!

The abomination of desolation is part of Revelation written after Jesus was crucified. Most likely the last book written. Get your facts straight before putting your foot in your mouth!!
I’m not calling you a liar I’m just saying that what you said is not right not even remotely close. I think I’ll pass on the pier walk thank you. 😉
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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The holy place spoken of in this discussion is inside the temple where the holy of holies is. That is where the holy place of the abomination of desolation is to take place. One concept is the antichrist will enter there and proclaim himself God.
The true Holy place is not seen . The kingdom of God is not of this world as that seen it represents that not seen .

Mount Sinai used to represent the kingdom of God not of this world was set apart as holy and set apart for a particular one time event . The dirt on that mountain is no different then the dirt set aside as holy on Mount Ebal to represent curse as the kingdoms of this world

Men turn the things seen into material for idol or image worship . Rachel was guilty of that. The Catholics have installed 3500 and rising worker with a familiar spirt in the holy Place of our father not seen There fore destroying the one man as to how we can reach the Holy place . its after the manner of Our Father in heaven not our brothers and sisters as saints in heaven called Patron saint as the abomination of desecration standing in the Holy Place .

The Holy place is not seen.
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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That temporal holy place is used represent as shadow of the actual holy unseen place, the eternal not seen .

Blood as that seen the temporal is used as a metaphor in various parables. While the life of the flesh is in the blood that life is spiritual essence of life , The mercy seat as that seen is also set aside as holy to represent the unseen mercy of God.

They are not the Holy place but again point to it

God is not a man as us and neither is there a daysman (fleshly mediator) set between God not seen and man seen.

What you offered represents a ceremonial law as shadow used in ceremonies that speak of the suffering of Christ beforehand of the good things to come. Preaching the gospel. The eternal substance is found in Christ, not seen. We walk by faith and not by sight.
You are ignoring the place in the Temple where the Ark of the Covenant was kept was called the Holy of Holies. It was behind the thick leather curtain that split when Jesus died on the cross.

There seems to be a lot of ignorance about several things in the Bible concerning the temple. I'm 74 and remember some from Sunday School when in high school. Also from reading he Bible and learning is special classes for becoming a deacon and later an elder.

This discussion concerning the temple is about the prophecy of the abomination causing desolation being done in the Holy Place. The Holy Place is the Holy of Holies in the temple to be built. Jews are in process of rebuilding the temple.

The Jews are all about ceremonial laws. To them it is a command from God since the law is from God and Jesus said the law is in place until the heavens and earth disappear.

Do you know the 613 laws scattered through the Torah?
 

Endoscopy

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I’m not calling you a liar I’m just saying that what you said is not right not even remotely close. I think I’ll pass on the pier walk thank you. 😉
Refute it instead of claiming it as false. That is the proper method instead of claiming something false and in essence claiming the person to be a false speaker aka liar.
 

KJV1611

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Nov 23, 2013
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Refute it instead of claiming it as false. That is the proper method instead of claiming something false and in essence claiming the person to be a false speaker aka liar.
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

When Christ came he fulfilled all of the above. There is no such thing as a physical "holy place" any more.
 

TabinRivCA

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Oct 23, 2018
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MIght want to consider just when THAT was written......like maybe 40 years before it happened.....so of course it was to "come to pass" eventually.......like 40 years later
What do you do w/Mt 24;21 '...there will b great trib, unmatched and not to b seen again..'. Are you saying that was the worst it is going to get?
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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IF there were a Rapture at the START of a 7-year tribulation period, then we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return and appearance in glory to earth, wouldn't we, i.e., 7 years after the date of the Rapture.

But the Bible says that no man knows the hour and even Jesus said that on THAT MATTER ONLY the Father knows the hour and day of Jesus's return.

Mark 13:32-33
But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.Take you heed, watch and pray: FOR YOU KNOW NOT WHEN THE TIME IS.

Therefore there can be NO Rapture at the start of a 7-year tribulation period because we would know how to calculate the day of His return 7 years later.

YehovaYeshua
Hello YehovaYeshua,

First of all, your error here is the assumption that the gathering of the church immediately initiates the seven years, which it does not. Sometime after the church has been caught up, that ruler, the antichrist will establish his seven year covenant with Israel(Dan.9:27) and that is what initiates the seven years.

And secondly, it is your claim of "we would be able to calculate the exact date of Jesus's return" is correct and is one of the features which separates the appearing of the Lord to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The gathering of the church is and has always been imminent. Believers are to continue to be watching and ready for the Lord's return because He will come like a thief in the night.

In opposition, prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the church must be gathered, the seven year covenant with Israel must be established, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. And then shortly after the seventh bowl has been poured out, then the Lord will return.

The bottom line is that regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, there are all kinds of signs that must take place which will allow believers on the earth during that time to know the approximate time by reading along in Revelation by counting off each seal, trumpet and bowl judgment. When the seventh angel pours out his bowl, the greatest earthquake to ever hit the earth since mankind has been on it will take place, causing the mountains and islands to disappear. The cities of the nations will collapse and there will be a great hail storm with hail weighing from 75 to 100 lbs. Once a person sees that event take place, then the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars (meteorites/asteroids) will fall to the earth and the inhabitants of the earth will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with great glory and will send out His angels to first gather the weeds and then the wheat.
 

dcontroversal

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Dec 12, 2013
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What do you do w/Mt 24;21 '...there will b great trib, unmatched and not to b seen again..'. Are you saying that was the worst it is going to get?
Amazing how we are 2000 years after the end came and went in 70 A.D. like the court jesters believe!
 

dcontroversal

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Very interesting fact....as a matter of fact we can say a miracle.....those in Luke looking up in fear and dropping dead from symbolic events that are not really happening..........Fearful sights in the heavens that are only SYMBOLIC and not really happening....WOW how could we not understand these events as real events and only symbolic.....the writers must be stupid, mistaken or were not inspired.....
 

dcontroversal

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Dec 12, 2013
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Joel must have been ripped as well when made his prediction......and Revelation should be called Mystery because all it reveals is symbolism that we cannot understand......heck...most of the bible needs to be shelved because it is symbolic and not literal.....WOW!
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

When Christ came he fulfilled all of the above. There is no such thing as a physical "holy place" any more.
You ignore that the religious Jews are going to build a third temple on the site of the original 2. That site has been excavated and there are videos and sites with evidence about it. I will attach information on this. It doesn't matter what us Christians believe but what the religious Jews believe. This is the flaw in your reasoning. I talk about the temple from descriptions in the Bible stating it contains a place behind the curtain called the holy of holies. This description is from the Bible. When the new temple is built this will be part of it.

Second temple location - where was it built

Second Temple
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple

Destruction of the second temple
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48944036.html?tab=y#