If you aren’t going up in the rapture, are you ready to be interrogated?

[DP]

A must read: Apostasy Now Topic - Pre-Trib Rapture: Answer to "one shall be taken, the other left"

The greek words for 'taken' studied. Supports pre-trib 'escape'.

His argument is not supported since he begins with an assumed false premise that the Matt.24 and Luke 17 examples are completely different speech to separate matters.

Also, he creates a dichotomy with the word "taken" between the two Scripture examples, when the same Greek word for "taken" is being used in both the Matt.24 and Luke 17 examples, the Greek word paralambano (3880):

Matt 24:40-41
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
KJV
Luke 17:34-35
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
KJV



Thus all that article proves is its author only knows to do bad scholarship, and even presenting a lie, since both Scripture examples use the same Greek word for "taken".

 

[hornetguy]

Because, as believer's we are supposed to be watching and anticipating his return. You should also know that God would not punish the righteous with the wicked. You should also know the severity of the wrath that is coming, if you did, you would not be believing that God would put his church through it.

"Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."

Those who don't even believe in the Lord's promise of gathering the living at the time of the resurrection, are not even watching nor trusting in his promise. And those who think that our gathering is to take place after God's wrath has been poured out, are not looking for his appearing, but for his wrath first.

I don't know the status of believer's, but for those who say they don't believe in his promise to gather us, they themselves are the ones who are letting me know their status. That's some blessed hope and a real comfort, believing and telling other believer's, "oh by the way, yeah you're saved, but you still have to go through God's wrath. Sorry!"

The Lord's return to gather his church is always imminent and we are supposed to be watching and ready. Regarding our being gathered Paul said, "comfort one another with these words" If we were to go through God's wrath first, there would be no comfort in it nor would it be a blessed hope. Go to the thread called "the Rapture" and find post #424, which is a list of God's wrath and then you think about whether or not it would be in God's nature or character to send his church through his unprecedented time of wrath. Get off the fence and understand what the word of God is saying about this issue!

Actually, I'm not on a fence about this. I don't believe there IS a fence to be on. I think that the study of end times will never be agreed upon, so where is the fence? On YOUR border? On a post-trib's border? As I have stated my belief before, this is NOT a salvation issue, so you (and I) are free to believe as we understand the Word... at this point in our lives. I might change my mind further down the road.. who knows? It just doesn't matter. It obviously matters a LOT to you, and I respect that, and your years of study. However, there are others who have studied for years, and have come to different conclusions as to what the revelations and prophesies mean.
So... who's right? You? Maybe... Them? Maybe... the point is, it doesn't matter to me which one of you is "right" because I'm going to be ready....either way!
If God chooses to put his church through the tribulation, so be it... Praise God!

If He chooses to take us away before the tribulation, GREAT.... Praise God!

Either way, we know what the end result will be.... life everlasting in His presence. Glory to God!

 

[PlainWord]

You're right I don't interpret the coming pseudo-Christ to be a flesh born man, but Satan himself, de facto in our dimension on earth, working those great signs and miracles our Lord Jesus said would almost... deceive His own elect, if it were possible.

In Matt.24 and Mark 13 Jesus showed that false one to come others will say is Him. There's only One True Messiah recognized in God's Word, and that is our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of the Bible prophecy, that coming false one cannot be a Muslim.

In 2 Corinthians 11, Apostle Paul revealed the coming false one for the end will be Satan. Paul warned the brethren against believing on the "another Jesus" in that chapter, and then later referred to how Satan transforms (disguises in the Greek) himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness.

In Revelation 12, we are shown Satan and his angels are cast down to this earth after the war in Heaven with the Archangel Micheal. A Woe is given to those who live on earth per the Scripture. So our Lord Jesus through His servant John gave you the warning that Satan is coming to this earth, to our dimension. That is further shown by our Lord Jesus by declaring other titles for Satan, like the "dragon". And in Rev.13 we're shown how the whole world will worship... "the dragon" (excepting Christ's elect); it doesn't say some Muslim cleric or northern leader either, nor any flesh man.

Rev.17 says the whole world will wonder at that dragon (as the "beast" of Rev.17:8 that will ascend out of the bottomless pit), as to who he is.

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

You are combining, and thus confusing, the two Beasts. The Beast of the Sea with the 7 heads and 10 horns is an earthly kingdom from the North of Israel. Sea = Society in Biblical Symbolism. The 7 "Heads" are the historical empires of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the Ottoman Empire. One of these 7 heads, which has left, will return (mortally wounded, yet lived).

We know the Harlot (false religion) is called Babylon so we know the people who follow current Babylon will be descendants of the original and in Jer 51 they are called "Daughters of Babylon." The location given in Rev 13 is to the North of Israel which agrees with Ezek 38 and Dan 11. The only people north of Israel are Muslim. Islam fits every clue, Rome does not.

This Muslim Beast Kingdom to the North of Israel has a mouth (leader) who speaks pompous words.

Rev 13: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

The above ties perfectly to Dan 7:

[SUP]24 [/SUP]The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. [SUP]25 [/SUP]He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

The above is speaking of a flesh and blood man. He leads an Islamic Army from the North of Israel. He blasphemes God. He overcomes Saints and he will attack Israel. After this, he will claim to be above all, including God (2 Thes 2:4, Dan 11:37). This is the same person, the King of the North, AKA Man of Sin, AKA Son of Perdition (son being the key word), AKA the AntiChrist, AKA the Little Horn. Eze 28 shows us that this man will be killed as does Dan 11 and his body visible for all to see. He is or will be Satanic and Satan led, thus the Son of Perdition and not perdition itself.

The Beast from the Earth is Satan. He isn't mentioned in Dan 11 or Eze 38 or even 2 Thes 2:4. However, he is found in Rev 9, 11, 12 and 13. If you take Rev 13 context and recognize this beast as Satan then you realize that he is probably not visible but is acting in the spiritual realm. I say this because of this line: "telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived." The image to the original beast (Ottoman) is a copy of the original Ottoman. Both ISIS and Iran fit this profile. Since both came into existence without any Satan figure ordering it, I conclude that the whole passage is probably spiritual with Satan influencing people subliminally. However, I am open to Satan coming out into the open too.

 

[PlainWord]

I find the pre-trib view as totally illogical. They think Christ returns and snatches hundreds of millions of Christians off the earth and the entire planet witnesses it. Then, supposedly, 3.5 years later the False Christ comes declaring to be Christ. Now if I'm one of the "left behinders," wouldn't I be saying, "Dude, how can you be Christ when we saw the real Christ a couple of years ago?

I'd be like, "You aren't Christ, you're the AntiChrist. Christ was already here and Raptured all the Christians and we saw it. You're here to kill us - run everybody!!"

Seriously, how could the AntiChrist fool anyone if the real Christ was already here just a couple of years earlier. What possibly could the AntiChrist be coming to promise, a second Rapture? Peace on earth now that all Christians are gone?

 

[JesusIsAll]

I find the pre-trib view as totally illogical. They think Christ returns and snatches hundreds of millions of Christians off the earth and the entire planet witnesses it. Then, supposedly, 3.5 years later the False Christ comes declaring to be Christ. Now if I'm one of the "left behinders," wouldn't I be saying, "Dude, how can you be Christ when we saw the real Christ a couple of years ago?

I'd be like, "You aren't Christ, you're the AntiChrist. Christ was already here and Raptured all the Christians and we saw it. You're here to kill us - run everybody!!"

Seriously, how could the AntiChrist fool anyone if the real Christ was already here just a couple of years earlier. What possibly could the AntiChrist be coming to promise, a second Rapture? Peace on earth now that all Christians are gone?

Wow, you must be running a fever, PlainWord, to be talking in terms of logic. The fact is, the world has no faith in Christ, and having faith, understanding the things of God, is something spiritually discerned. Knowledge of God can't be argued into, can't be logically reasoned, as spiritual blindness is the ultimate, overwhelming stupidity. You show an, otherwise, very intelligent, atheist scientist statistical proof of God's omniscience by fulfilled prophecy: it's right there in the Bible, obviously so. He'll just have this blank look, insisting there's no God, regardless anything you demonstrate, won't understand things so simple for people of faith to understand. At best, he will "have to look into it," then never will, the devil snatching the very thought. He won't understand much clear scripture, very details of the passion events in the Old Testament. He has no spiritual eyes to see: no Holy Spirit, no true knowledge and understanding.

So, you can't say blind people will see squat, would more likely accept aliens or the antichrist vanished all the intolerant Christians, who were to blame for all problems, just like they burned Rome, because people love their sin and evil, not God. They will flock to any new, ecumenical religion that welcomes all, that got rid of the pesky type Christians, will believe whatever tickles ears. It doesn't have to even make sense, as long as they can continue the unrepentant lives they choose. Blindness will rule, God even in scripture stating He will send, allow, strong delusion, that people will believe the lie, 2 Thessalonians 2:11. There will be many whose eyes will be opened by the rapture, and there is a great revival in the times of antichrist, multitudes that come to Christ the hard way, refusing antichrist, but your notion the whole world will signup for anything Christian isn't so: not now, or ever, Luke 16:30-31 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. The world will accept any explanation that doesn't involve Jesus Christ and His whole truth. They refuse to repent, in God's face, Revelation 16:11.

Think about it. After the exodus, Moses couldn't go away long enough to receive some tablets from the Lord that the rest weren't building a golden calf to worship, and this after seeing the power of God, bigtime, in Egypt. The world as it is and history doesn't lend credibility to your claims of any logic, reason, ever ruling in human affairs, despite even the very power of God manifest. You need to also take into account the world is Satan's domain, many either opposed to God, on purpose, or a willing dupe in these activities, intractably of the flesh, to death. Bottom line, though? Spiritually blind means blind, and no eyes but by repentance at the foot of the cross and faith in the Lord Jesus, to be born again of the Spirit. Before this, you may as well be trying to have a conversation with a tree stump, where any discernment of the things of God is concerned, and people will, otherwise, believe the stupidest things, every time.

 

[Armini3]

stay tuned to this channel for this exciting conclusion of "Why didn't the rapture happen before the trib?" (starring; chuckt as him self....

Why Believers won’t go through the Tribulation
By Chuckt (C) 12-15-2007

My pastors always give the illustration that the Church is the bride of Christ and as the husband is told to love their wives and God is not going to beat up His wife before the marriage:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

It seems inconsistent for Christ not to love the church, not to give Himself for it and not to love His bride by making the Church go through the Tribulation. That is not the example of Scripture.

Lot and Noah are types of the rapture because, “.. the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;” (Romans 1:18) which is not the Church and didn’t include Lot or Noah. “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” Gen 6:8 We found grace in the eyes of the Lord because “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:”-Ephesians 2:8-9. Therefore I have to conclude that we have the same grace as Noah received and we should escape the tribulation flood.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I put myself in Revelation 5:9 and will sing “thou was slain, and has redeemed US” because the Church is in Heaven and the only one who can sing that song is “US”.

Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.

I don’t know why people believe that Jesus is going to send down fire on believers in the Tribulation period but I have to say, ”Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.”

Then you have to explain why men will go through the Tribulation but why ordinary tragedies are not judgments of God:

Luke 13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Isn't the first appearance of Jesus for saving men and the second appearance for judging?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we are going to go through the tribulation then God would seem to be punishing us. I think that if you believe in the assurance of the believer then you can't believe in going through the tribulation because that means that God hasn't cleansed you from all unrighteousness and that it (the work of the cross) isn't finished (John 19:30) because you are still paying for sins during the tribulation and that would contradict Ephesians 2:8-9 to mean that it isn't by grace through faith but it is by works that give you assurance.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If you are going through the tribulation as a believer then Ephesians 2:3 can't say that you "were by nature the children of wrath" but should say that you "are the children of wrath" (not in the Bible) because you are the object of wrath during the tribulation.

I think that people suffering over the years for their faith is a result of man or Satan.

I believe that those who didn't believe us but may later see us leave in the rapture will believe because of that event. I think that those people and those of the false church will be persecuted. The tribulation is an event that God brings on to a Christ rejecting world and there is no reasons for God to punish Christians because (1) Christ paid for their sins and (2) the object is to bring wrath against those who don't want to believe or took the mark of the beast:

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Revelation 16:1 ¶ And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Revelation 16:2 ¶ And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.

A reason is:

Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

The objects of God’s wrath are unbelievers whom are probably very difficult for man to evangelize.

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The above verses use examples of men who are clearly not believers. They are blasphemers and they are hard to deal with individuals.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

These are people who suppress the truth because they hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent (admitting no change of mind / unrepentant) heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Hardness and impenitent (unrepentant) are the reasons why they treasure up unto themselves for the day of wrath.

So you have to choose whether we will go through wrath because you can't believe that we will go through wrath and being saved from wrath (Romans 5:9). Either you are justified by His blood or you aren't.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Who is the "them" in 1 Thessalonians 2:16?

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It isn't the "us" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

 

[Armini3]

just curious (plainword) where do you suppose this "Islamic Army" comes from? out of thin air? your idea of the little horn is on the wrong continent/ lets play a trivia game which kingdom started out really small an rooted out 3 of the 1st horns of the roman empire? if you consult your encyclopedia their known today as 1) Britain 2) france 3)spain then it says the horn grew larger. hmmm so what kingdom rooted out three kings and grew larger and is "different from the 1st ones" but has a large military to do all that is needed for these events to happen?(referring to the concurring/and insuring a fake guaranteed peace with military presence) I can assure you its no military in the middle east an there's nothing that can pop up over night second there's no past history of a Islamic nation rooting out 3 of the 1st horns of the roman empire an sure as heck cant be a future Islamic army NATO would never allow it. And finally Rev. ch 14 vs 3- " WHO IS LIKE THE BEAST? WHO CAN MAKE WAR WHITH THE BEAST?"- so I ask you who is like the U.S.A.? who can make war with the U.S.A.? We rooted out 3 of the 1st kingdoms of the roman empire already then grew larger and were boasting of how great we are. with our 15 carrier groups,90 planes per carrier, 79 nuclear subs, fleet of stealth bombers&fighters and countless military satellites in space watching down especially in the middle east, so my friend no Islamic army is going to be satanically controlled running things its very apparent of which country satan will have his sights on to making that covenant with Israel and the surrounding arab nations. (

You are combining, and thus confusing, the two Beasts. The Beast of the Sea with the 7 heads and 10 horns is an earthly kingdom from the North of Israel. Sea = Society in Biblical Symbolism. The 7 "Heads" are the historical empires of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the Ottoman Empire. One of these 7 heads, which has left, will return (mortally wounded, yet lived).

We know the Harlot (false religion) is called Babylon so we know the people who follow current Babylon will be descendants of the original and in Jer 51 they are called "Daughters of Babylon." The location given in Rev 13 is to the North of Israel which agrees with Ezek 38 and Dan 11. The only people north of Israel are Muslim. Islam fits every clue, Rome does not.

This Muslim Beast Kingdom to the North of Israel has a mouth (leader) who speaks pompous words.

Rev 13: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

The above ties perfectly to Dan 7:

[SUP]24 [/SUP]The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. [SUP]25 [/SUP]He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

The above is speaking of a flesh and blood man. He leads an Islamic Army from the North of Israel. He blasphemes God. He overcomes Saints and he will attack Israel. After this, he will claim to be above all, including God (2 Thes 2:4, Dan 11:37). This is the same person, the King of the North, AKA Man of Sin, AKA Son of Perdition (son being the key word), AKA the AntiChrist, AKA the Little Horn. Eze 28 shows us that this man will be killed as does Dan 11 and his body visible for all to see. He is or will be Satanic and Satan led, thus the Son of Perdition and not perdition itself.

The Beast from the Earth is Satan. He isn't mentioned in Dan 11 or Eze 38 or even 2 Thes 2:4. However, he is found in Rev 9, 11, 12 and 13. If you take Rev 13 context and recognize this beast as Satan then you realize that he is probably not visible but is acting in the spiritual realm. I say this because of this line: "telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived." The image to the original beast (Ottoman) is a copy of the original Ottoman. Both ISIS and Iran fit this profile. Since both came into existence without any Satan figure ordering it, I conclude that the whole passage is probably spiritual with Satan influencing people subliminally. However, I am open to Satan coming out into the open too.

 

[tanakh]

When discussing the Rapture, people seem to concentrate on what happens to living believers and ignore the resurrection of the dead. Fortunately for them Jesus wont do that. The following is what he had to say about it and I would rather take his word than that of anyone else..........

And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me,that of all he hath given me I should lose nothing ,but should raise it up again on the last day

John 6:39

And this is the will of him that sent me ,that everyone that seeth the Son ,and believeth on him ,may have everlasting life : and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:40

No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I shall raise him up at the last day.

John 6: 44

Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:54

Jesus saith unto her Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:23-24

So according to Jesus the Rapture happens at the last day. The last day cant happen before the tribulation or midway through it because there would still be seven or three and a half years to go before the start of the Millennium. As I said before I would rather take his word for it than anyone else.

 

[Ahwatukee]

When discussing the Rapture, people seem to concentrate on what happens to living believers and ignore the resurrection of the dead. Fortunately for them Jesus wont do that. The following is what he had to say about it and I would rather take his word than that of anyone else..........

And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me,that of all he hath given me I should lose nothing ,but should raise it up again on the last day

John 6:39

And this is the will of him that sent me ,that everyone that seeth the Son ,and believeth on him ,may have everlasting life : and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:40

No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I shall raise him up at the last day.

John 6: 44

Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:54

Jesus saith unto her Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:23-24

So according to Jesus the Rapture happens at the last day. The last day cant happen before the tribulation or midway through it because there would still be seven or three and a half years to go before the start of the Millennium. As I said before I would rather take his word for it than anyone else.

Hi Tanakh,

The error is your definition of the "last day." People make the same mistake with the term "last trumpet." The error being that you and other interpret "last day" as the day when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, while at the same time ignoring the fact that by doing so, you put the church through the entire wrath of God. So you ignore the other aspects of it. I have already demonstrated from scripture that there are a number of resurrections that fall under the banner of first resurrection, which definitely do not occur at the same time. People look at the phrase "First resurrection" and they interpret that as "Only" resurrection. They don't pay attention to the details which states that only a resurrection is taking place in Rev.20:4-6 and no mention of the living being transformed and caught up. They also pay no attention to identifying those who are following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean, which are clearly identified as the bride, which is another designation for the church. The truth of the matter is that, Jesus never identifies when "the last day" takes place, just like he never identifies when the "last trumpet" takes place.

As believer's we are supposed to be watching and anticipating the Lord's return, which is imminent i.e. nothing has to take place in order for Christ to come for his church. His appearing to gather us is our blessed hope. After Paul outlined the gathering of the church, dead and living, he then said "therefore, comfort one another with these words." Therefore, if the church was to go through the entire wrath of God, it would not be a blessed hope nor could we comfort one another. This also stems from the fact that people who do not study end-time events nor the book of revelation have a passive view of God's wrath or don't even believe that God's wrath is coming.

As I said before I would rather take his word for it than anyone else.

So, here's his word regarding his coming:

"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’

Here's the million dollar question, if you have Christ gathering his church when he returns to end the age, according to the scripture above, how could he come suddenly at a time when we least expect it, when there are so many signs leading up to his return to the earth to end the age?

Those who believe that the gathering of the church takes place after Christ returns to the earth are not looking for his imminent return, but must look for the wrath of God first. In between now and the return of Christ to the earth to end the age the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Combined, they will decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. It is God's wrath that is coming which the church is not appointed to suffer, and that because Jesus already suffered it on our behalf.

 

[Ahwatukee]

stay tuned to this channel for this exciting conclusion of "Why didn't the rapture happen before the trib?" (starring; chuckt as him self....

"While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

The Wicked will not escape when that time of wrath comes, but believer's are not in darkness so that this day should surprise us like a thief, ergo the Lord will appear and the living will be changed and caught up with those who will have just resurrected, while the wicked, Christ rejecting world will remain and they will not escape the wrath which follows.

 

[duewell]

sorry the rapture happened in 2009 and only one person noticed. that person asked to be left with everyone else as to avoid the appearance of favoritism. carry on tho.


duewell
mark 4 v11-13

 

[Grandpa]

sorry the rapture happened in 2009 and only one person noticed. that person asked to be left with everyone else as to avoid the appearance of favoritism. carry on tho.


duewell
mark 4 v11-13

It was the end of 2009.

And I didn't ask to be left here.

I asked why I was still here...

 

[DP]

"While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

The Wicked will not escape when that time of wrath comes, but believer's are not in darkness so that this day should surprise us like a thief, ergo the Lord will appear and the living will be changed and caught up with those who will have just resurrected, while the wicked, Christ rejecting world will remain and they will not escape the wrath which follows.

Yeah, and that will occur on the last day of this world, because that's when that "day of the Lord" timing that Paul mentioned with that is to happen, and not before nor during the tribulation like you've been wrongly taught.

 

[DP]

When discussing the Rapture, people seem to concentrate on what happens to living believers and ignore the resurrection of the dead. Fortunately for them Jesus wont do that. The following is what he had to say about it and I would rather take his word than that of anyone else..........

And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me,that of all he hath given me I should lose nothing ,but should raise it up again on the last day

John 6:39

And this is the will of him that sent me ,that everyone that seeth the Son ,and believeth on him ,may have everlasting life : and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:40

No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I shall raise him up at the last day.

John 6: 44

Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:54

Jesus saith unto her Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:23-24

So according to Jesus the Rapture happens at the last day. The last day cant happen before the tribulation or midway through it because there would still be seven or three and a half years to go before the start of the Millennium. As I said before I would rather take his word for it than anyone else.

That's more evidence that the rapture only happens on the last day of this world, but those drunken on man's pre-trib doctrines don't care about that Scripture evidence; they'd still rather follow and push a lie. The "caught up" event Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 includes the event of the resurrection on the last day, so how easy is that to figure out the rapture is on the last day of this world?

 

[DP]

Hi Tanakh,

The error is your definition of the "last day." People make the same mistake with the term "last trumpet." The error being that you and other interpret "last day" as the day when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, while at the same time ignoring the fact that by doing so, you put the church through the entire wrath of God. So you ignore the other aspects of it. I have already demonstrated from scripture that there are a number of resurrections that fall under the banner of first resurrection, which definitely do not occur at the same time. People look at the phrase "First resurrection" and they interpret that as "Only" resurrection. They don't pay attention to the details which states that only a resurrection is taking place in Rev.20:4-6 and no mention of the living being transformed and caught up. They also pay no attention to identifying those who are following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean, which are clearly identified as the bride, which is another designation for the church. The truth of the matter is that, Jesus never identifies when "the last day" takes place, just like he never identifies when the "last trumpet" takes place.

As believer's we are supposed to be watching and anticipating the Lord's return, which is imminent i.e. nothing has to take place in order for Christ to come for his church. His appearing to gather us is our blessed hope. After Paul outlined the gathering of the church, dead and living, he then said "therefore, comfort one another with these words." Therefore, if the church was to go through the entire wrath of God, it would not be a blessed hope nor could we comfort one another. This also stems from the fact that people who do not study end-time events nor the book of revelation have a passive view of God's wrath or don't even believe that God's wrath is coming.



So, here's his word regarding his coming:

"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’

Here's the million dollar question, if you have Christ gathering his church when he returns to end the age, according to the scripture above, how could he come suddenly at a time when we least expect it, when there are so many signs leading up to his return to the earth to end the age?

Those who believe that the gathering of the church takes place after Christ returns to the earth are not looking for his imminent return, but must look for the wrath of God first. In between now and the return of Christ to the earth to end the age the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Combined, they will decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. It is God's wrath that is coming which the church is not appointed to suffer, and that because Jesus already suffered it on our behalf.

So duh... 'first day' doesn't really mean first either!!!!

You can tell the ones who really don't care what Scripture simply declares brethren, because these types who bear false witness against God's Word seek to change the meaning of simple words like first and last!

 

[PlainWord]

just curious (plainword) where do you suppose this "Islamic Army" comes from? out of thin air? your idea of the little horn is on the wrong continent/ lets play a trivia game which kingdom started out really small an rooted out 3 of the 1st horns of the roman empire? if you consult your encyclopedia their known today as 1) Britain 2) france 3)spain then it says the horn grew larger. hmmm so what kingdom rooted out three kings and grew larger and is "different from the 1st ones" but has a large military to do all that is needed for these events to happen?(referring to the concurring/and insuring a fake guaranteed peace with military presence) I can assure you its no military in the middle east an there's nothing that can pop up over night second there's no past history of a Islamic nation rooting out 3 of the 1st horns of the roman empire an sure as heck cant be a future Islamic army NATO would never allow it. And finally Rev. ch 14 vs 3- " WHO IS LIKE THE BEAST? WHO CAN MAKE WAR WHITH THE BEAST?"- so I ask you who is like the U.S.A.? who can make war with the U.S.A.? We rooted out 3 of the 1st kingdoms of the roman empire already then grew larger and were boasting of how great we are. with our 15 carrier groups,90 planes per carrier, 79 nuclear subs, fleet of stealth bombers&fighters and countless military satellites in space watching down especially in the middle east, so my friend no Islamic army is going to be satanically controlled running things its very apparent of which country satan will have his sights on to making that covenant with Israel and the surrounding arab nations. (

You think that the USA is the Little Horn? LOL. Are you new to this? The USA is not to the North of Israel? The USA was never a kingdom that left and returned. The USA was never one of the 7 kingdoms which enslaved Israel or lived within and/or around her which got Israel to worship their idols (false religions). Like many from the US, you think prophesy applies to us. It doesn't. Prophesy is Israel-centric.

"Horns" are Kings, not nations.

Dan 7: [SUP]24 [/SUP]The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom.

Rev 17: [SUP]12 [/SUP]“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.

The "KINGS HAVE RECEIVED NO KINGDOM" thus the Kings cannot themselves be kingdoms. Horns are on the head, they lead the empires. The Beast has 7 heads (empires) and 10 horns (kings or leaders).

In terms of the origins of the 10 kings look closely at Dan 7 again, they arise from the 4th kingdom (ROME). Rome was divided in two, east and west. The West became Europe and eventually the Americas. This passage is discussing the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) which was headquartered at Constantinople (named after Roman Emperor Constantine) which is now Istanbul. The Eastern Roman Empire fell officially in 1299 AD and was conquered by, WAIT FOR IT... THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE which was ISLAMIC and perfectly fits the 7th head of the Beast of Revelation 17.

There is no past history of a Little Horn rooting out 3 kings because it hasn't happened yet. Pick up the context again from Dan 7:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came.

The Ancient of Days is God, our Heavenly Father. Thus the Little Horn wages war against the Saints and is prevailing against them until God comes. God comes after Gog, led by the Little Horn AKA King of the North attacks Israel (the Great Tribulation). God comes after the Tribulation of Israel and comes with His Wrath as we see here.

Eze 38: [SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: ‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, [SUP]20 [/SUP]so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence.

Glad to help and I hope this helps???

 

[PlainWord]

FYI. John wrote to the messengers (or spirits) of the 7 churches in Asia Minor all of which would have been in modern day Turkey. The Ottoman Empire was headquartered at Istanbul (Constantinople) where Eastern Rome was located. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[KohenMatt]

Rapture:

Not taught or mentioned by Jesus.
Not taught or mentioned by the Disciples.
Not taught or mentioned by the Early Church Fathers.
A doctrine not really taught until the 16th-ish century.

1 debatable phrase in scripture that might have something to do with it.

I'm going to side with the "no rapture" crowd.

Even if it were real, the idea of a rapture has no bearing on my life and ministry today. It will have no bearing on my and ministry in the future.

Hello Hornetguy and KohenMatt,

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and [the dead in Christ will rise first]. After that, [we who are still alive] and are left [will be caught up] together with them [in the clouds] to meet the Lord [in the air]. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

* For the Lord himself will come down from heaven

* The dead in Christ will rise first

* After that, we how are still alive will be changed and caught up with them (the resurrected)

* In the clouds

* To meet the Lord in the air

The above is not difficult at all to understand. It is the false teachings in the world that have distorted this truth. The Lord descends from heaven, the dead who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church are raised into those immortal and glorified bodies, immediately after that, those who are still alive are changed/transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and are caught up with the resurrected dead in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. By the words [clouds] and [air] we then know where both the resurrected and the living are being caught up to.

The dead shall rise first (Resurrection) = The physical, bodily standing up of those who have died in Christ

Then we which remain and are still alive = The living are transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies

There should now be no confusion about the gathering of the church via the resurrection and catching away of the dead and the living.

I would not be so quick as to claim that not believing in the gathering of the church both dead and living as not having any bearing on our salvation. Let me give you an example: When Hymenaeus and Philetus, where going about teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, Paul said that by doing so they had wandered from the truth, that their teaching was godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene and by their teaching they were destroying the faith of some.

Though the word of God states that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and immediately after that the living will be changed and caught up with them, by not believing it you are denying the word of God and a direct promise from the Lord. The reason why this event is called "the blessed hope" is because the church is removed prior to God's wrath that will be poured out upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will decimate the population of the entire earth and dismantle all human government. After outlining the gathering of the church, dead and living, Paul then says, "comfort each other with these words." If the church was to go through the period of God's wrath, it would neither be a blessed hope nor would believer's have reason to comfort one another.

Regarding this time of coming wrath, scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer that wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that Jesus, through his sacrifice for us, has rescued the faithful from that coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10). That said, you who do not believe in the Lord's promise would be rejecting his word, i.e. not having faith in his word and in his promise. I would put this in the same category as what Hymenaeus and Philetus had done. The teaching that the Lord is not going to gather the dead and remove the living from the earth according to his promise, would be the equivalent of godless chatter that has indeed spread like gangrene, causing those who do not believe and teach it to have wandered away from the true and destroying the faith of others. How are we destroying the faith of some you ask? Because by not believing in the Lord's promise and by teaching others the same, you would be claiming that instead of the blessed hope of the Lord's coming to remove his church from the earth prior to his wrath being poured out, by your belief and teaching you would be saying that God is going to send his living church through his wrath, which would be no blessed hope nor would it be of any comfort. This error also stems from not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

Therefore, I would not be so quick to claim that not believing in the promise of the Lord to remove the living believer's from the earth prior to his wrath has no bearing on your salvation. If anything, for those who are believing in his promise, as though God would leave the righteous here to suffer with the unrighteous, they should repent and believe in the word of God and his promise of gathering the church prior to his coming wrath.

Your response doesn't address all of my other points.

You spent time addressing the one Scripture I said was debatable. It's meaning might be clear to you, but it is by no means a consensus, or even close to it.

I still side with the "no rapture crowd."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Your response doesn't address all of my other points.

You spent time addressing the one Scripture I said was debatable. It's meaning might be clear to you, but it is by no means a consensus, or even close to it.

I still side with the "no rapture crowd."

Are you able to comprehend simple sentences? If so, then here is the promise broken down:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."


* Jesus descends from heaven

* Those who have died in Christ will rise first

* After the dead are resurrected, then those who are sill alive will be changed and caught up with them.

The information above is very clear in its meaning and is not debatable. The timing of this event aside, that the event its self is going to take place just as it is written is not debatable. If it is, it is only because you are ignoring what it being said in the scripture.

 

[HisHolly]

The warning at the end of Revelations keeps me from discussing it. All I can do is assume bc the full meaning hasn't been made known to me..So I say nothing...