If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[WoundedWarrior]

No, Paul did not say he was the chief of sinners in the present tense. We know this by actually looking at the context.

For Paul says,

"I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst." (1 Timothy 1:12-15).

Reformation Study Bible disagrees:

1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. This expression calls attention to an important point. In the New Testament it is found only in the Pastoral Letters (3:1; 4:9; 2 Tim. 2:11; Titus 3:8).

I am the foremost. Lit. “I am the first.” This is not a characterization of himself prior to his conversion. Rather, as Paul has grown in Christ he has become increasingly aware of his own sinfulness.

Matthew Henry's Commentary disagrees:

In the close of 1 Tim. 1:15 Paul applies it to himself: Of whom I am chief. Paul was a sinner of the first rank; so he acknowledges himself to have been, for he breathed out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, etc., Acts 9:1, 2. Persecutors are some of the worst of sinners: such a one Paul had been. Or, of whom I am chief, that is, of pardoned sinners I am chief. It is an expression of his great humility; he that elsewhere calls himself the least of all saints (Eph. 3:8) here calls himself the chief of sinners. Observe, [1.] Christ Jesus has come into the world; the prophecies concerning his coming are now fulfilled. [2.] He came to save sinners; he came to save those who could not save and help themselves. [3.] Blasphemers and persecutors are the chief of sinners, so Paul reckoned them. [4.] The chief of sinners may become the chief of saints; so this apostle was, for he was not a whit behind the very chief apostles (2 Cor. 11:5), for Christ came to save the chief of sinners. [5.] This is a very great truth, it is a faithful saying; these are true and faithful words, which may be depended on. [6.] It deserves to be received, to be believed by us all, for our comfort and encouragement.

The Asbury Bible Commentary disagrees:

Why are they given to the church? Their purpose is to prepare God's people for works of service. To what end? These offices are of first importance because those who have these gifts/offices direct others to perform their respective ministries for the common good. As persons perform better their particular ministries, the entire body is strengthened. The body builder knows that each muscle must be strengthened if the whole body is to be developed properly. Some persons in the community fill the vital role of assisting others to exercise their gifts that the whole body of Christ might be built up.

I. Remember The Command (1:1-20)

In this opening chapter, Paul reminds Timothy of his important role in managing God's household (vv. 3-4), defines the goal of God's command (v. 5), explains the role of the Law (vv. 8-11), testifies to the Lord's grace in saving the worst of sinners (vv. 12-17), and challenges Timothy to fight the good fight (v. 18).
D. Salvation of Paul (1:12-17)

Faith is central to salvation (v. 12). Describing himself (v. 13), Paul asserts that his actions were a result of ignorance and unbelief, and he was shown mercy. This seems to suggest that willful disobedience will not receive God's mercy. Paul asserts that his own life is a pattern of God's patient mercy for those who would believe in Christ and receive eternal life. Christ considered him faithful; strengthened him; appointed him to service; showed mercy to him (vv. 13, 16); poured out grace, faith, and love on him; saved him; and displayed unlimited patience toward him. Reflecting on this, Paul breaks out in a doxology to the eternal, sovereign God.



But, "beware the scribes", you say...

You see how frustrating it is to many of us, when you accuse us of ignoring context or not using scripture as our reference? We present opposing views, we present the scripture used to support our views, you tell us we're mistaken, misunderstood, in darkness, evil, etc. The way arguments work is that you present evidence for a case and consider the evidence. Stating: "Your interpretation is wrong, here's my (the correct) interpretation" does not work -- Instead, perhaps consider verbiage such as "I disagree with your interpretation, and here's why..."

Yes, we believe our understanding of the scriptures. Yes, we believe what those before us have passed down and taught us. So, when someone blatantly tells us that we're wrong, tells us what the "correct" context is (as if there is only ONE proper context for each idea), and makes further personal accusations based on assumptions -- yes, you're likely going to meet resistance.

I am sorry if calling you a "troll" offends you. Do you know what is meant by "troll"? Internet Trolls offend people and create discord. Which is what myself and others believe you are doing here. We believe this because time and time again, you present your view as if your view is the unchallengeable Holy Word of God. Repeatedly, you disregard, misunderstand, or read-into the words of fellow CC members.

When two parties believe (without a doubt) that they are correct, what we have seen here is a result.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Basic Archaeology and the Bible.

For do you agree that Egyptians are not white in appearance? Granted, there might have been a few anomalous white Egyptians genetically, but we know from archaeology (with Egyptian wall drawings) that Egyptian people are darker in skin color and not white. Do you agree? What does this have to do with Jesus? Well, Jesus was of the descent of the Jewish / Hebrew people.

So if Egyptians are darker in skin color and Joseph was say white, than wouldn't you think his brothers would have recognized him? You know, sort of like a Q Tip or a rabbit's foot?

What about Moses? Are we really to believe that he could have passed off as an Egyptian being a white skinned fella?

In fact, when Moses fled to the land of Midian (located in Saudi Arabia) he helped 7 daughters of the priest of Midian water their flock and he later chased away some bad shepherds.

Exodus 2:19
And they said, AN EGYPTIAN DELIVERED US out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water enough for us, and watered the flock.

In other words, they thought he was a dark skinned Egyptian.

In Acts 21:37-38, a chief captain was surprised that Paul spoke Greek, and he mistaken him for being an Egyptian. Why? Egyptians are darker in skin color. If Paul's skin was as white as wool, then how can this chief captain mistake him for an Egyptian?

Think, my friend. Jesus was Jewish just like Paul.

Jesus is not white. He is darker in skin color. Mid tone.

Good job Jason -- You completely misunderstood me, once again, and went on a mind-numbing and pointless rant;

Here is YOUR quote:

I mean, most people today think Jesus is white and European looking even.

Here is YOUR MISUNDERSTANDING of your own quote:

For do you agree that Egyptians are not white in appearance?

No one asked whether or not you agree with what YOU THINK a majority of people think today. Nobody asked if you agree that Egyptians are not white in appearance. You made a statement; "...most people today think Jesus is white...", you were then asked as to what source you used to support this assumption. You answered by starting a case for brown-skinned Egyptians -- ignoring the question altogether.

Although it will probably do me no good to make this request: Please stop with the condescending remarks, such as "Think, my friend." -- I am not your friend, and I continue to find your tone towards myself and others to be condescending, insulting, and otherwise offensive. It is very troll-like behavior, and if you do not like me calling you a troll, then please stop with the condescending remarks towards me and others here at CC.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

I say this in love, but everyone's comments here so far are a smoke screen. They are diversion tactic so as not to deal with the real core issue of the questions I asked. For it is dealing with whether or not you can do evil and still be saved. That is what I am talking about here. However, it does not surprise me that I am insulted and or that such a point goes ignored.

It goes ignored, because you bring up the same issue(s) here as you have on previous threads.
It goes ignored, because of everything that has already been discussed with you previously.

An internet troll is a person who sows discord on the internet by starting arguments or upsetting people...otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. I am sorry if you take offense to this.

Perhaps you could consider how offensive it is to others when you say things like: "Your problem is...", "Now, you are being double minded. You are jumping over the white line and claiming to be on the good guy's side now.", "Right, so those who do evil in God's name are the ones who are going to be saved over those who teach believers to obey Jesus's commands in regards to righteous living and holiness? I don't think so...The Scriptures say, he that does righteusness is righteous...And they also say, he that sins is of the devil.", "I am trying to walk in the Lord's footsteps and be patient with people as I tell them the truth of the Scriptures.", "...it would expose what they believe if they were forced to think about the darkness of their own belief.", "The Scriptures say be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving your ownselves.", "...you have to keep reading to understand the context...", "...everyone's comments here so far are a smoke screen. They are diversion tactic so as not to deal with the real core issue of the questions I asked...", "you have failed to address any verses that I have brought up. If you were on the side of truth, you would have no trouble explaining those verses in the proper context.", "I am not out to condemn you but to save you by the real power of the gospel in God's Word.", "...you have reading problems...", "Again, you have reading problems. I said I came to save you BY THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL IN GOD"S WORD. Jesus is the One who saves by the power of this gospel and Him alone. I am merely a messenger who points you to Christ and His goodness.", "Claiming that I need Christ in my life does not make such a statement true.", "...most people today think Jesus is white and European looking...", "Jesus was Jewish and mid-tone in color and he had Jewish features. However, most just have beliefs that are not even in the Bible today.", "God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.", "Think, my friend."

Yes... think.

 

[slave]

When did I or anyone who believes in OSAS say it's not necessary or possible to give God a "thank you card"? I thank God every day for all He has done for me. I rely on the Holy Spirit to keep me from sin. I am not sure where you got that from.

It's not the issue of whether you thank God or not..it's what the Thank you card says. Is it thank you for accepting this sinner. Or is it that you thank God for the complete victory in Christ Jesus, the new me. And from that I can thank you based on a rebirth, not the acceptance of a dead package. So sin is now understood to be a wrong being and not wrong doing saved under Gods mercy. And faith is understood as anything done within Christ. The only way to the Father is by faith. Sins acts aren't Gods concern, Sins position is! God if He cleaned your sinful acts still has no power over your will, which determines sins being in you. Loves choice by God for us to have with Him, and Gods Righteousness will allow no other provisions. So we in the old self can't earn it.. but we in Gods mercy must be responsible to our decision, of the free gift! Let your yes mean yes and your no be no. Let us not self govern our religion. Christ is of more value than OSAO beliefs give Him credit. The focus then is not the condemnation, Christ applies, but the value of the gift He has given in the person and God of Christ Jesus our Lord! In that provision the real Christian understands both the quality of our old selfs death and the victory of the new man found in Christ. We need not re write scripture to try to fit both in.

 

[Jason0047]

It's not the issue of whether you thank God or not..it's what the Thank you card says. Is it thank you for accepting this sinner. Or is it that you thank God for the complete victory in Christ Jesus, the new me. And from that I can thank you based on a rebirth, not the acceptance of a dead package. So sin is now understood to be a wrong being and not wrong doing saved under Gods mercy. And faith is understood as anything done within Christ. The only way to the Father is by faith. Sins acts aren't Gods concern, Sins position is! God if He cleaned your sinful acts still has no power over your will, which determines sins being in you. Loves choice by God for us to have with Him, and Gods Righteousness will allow no other provisions. So we in the old self can't earn it.. but we in Gods mercy must be responsible to our decision, of the free gift! Let your yes mean yes and your no be no. Let us not self govern our religion. Christ is of more value than OSAO beliefs give Him credit. The focus then is not the condemnation, Christ applies, but the value of the gift He has given in the person and God of Christ Jesus our Lord! In that provision the real Christian understands both the quality of our old selfs death and the victory of the new man found in Christ. We need not re write scripture to try to fit both in.

Thank you Slave.

May God bless you greatly brother.

 

[slave]

Your welcome Jason, and thank you for putting to foot your beliefs, authorized by God and His purposes. One clear note, God shows us in obeying Him is as we work to do His will the servant of God has to go thru the experience of things before he is allowed to go thru a study of them. So the worker is required to enter voluntarily into that discipline of his life that will bring into line with God's way for him. All we are asking is that of God's call to be spiritually fit as the foundation of mental rightness. And we equate intellectual discipline to spiritual well-being. The worker for God, I know you attest to, is a unity, spirit, soul and body, and needs to be brought by God's grace and by personal choice and concentration into a harmoniously working whole.

Mere intellectualism can be a great snare and mere religious respect is not enough. The man of God to be thoroughly furnished unto every good work must accept the spiritual discipline of reproof and correction and training in righteousness that the scriptures convey, and also the mental discipline which a right understanding of scripture demands. You and I are not after pious positions but after the ability for people found in Christ to be competent servants of Christ Jesus, spiritually fitted, and mentally fitted, for the great task entrusted to all of His Children. Some are ready to hear that message, others may yet need to reach that point of meaning business with God. Thank You Jason for faithfully caring enough to keep allowing hope to exist, for by it Gods glory is seen, not yours.

"I agree with you. However, I enjoy arguing and so I cannot completely agree with you."

 

[Jason0047]

....

First, while I have used commentaries in the past; I have found many of them to be incorrect. Granted, while I do look to what other believers say on various verses at certain times in many articles, I do not need a commentary or an article to truly have understanding of the Scriptures because it is the Spirit that guides a believer into all truth. Many times the Lord directs me into what a passage is talking about by telling me another verse that is related. However, I do believe sometimes the LORD will use these methods. But they are not the only way to to deterimine the truth. What are some methods that we can use to understand God's Word by the Spirit?

#1. Looking at the context.
#2. Does it sound like one is reading the passage plainly? If there is an odd word or expression, does it fit the context?
#3. Comparing other related verses that say the same truth.
#4. Praying for the understanding (Jeremiah 33:3).
#5. Looking to the original languages that backs up what the English is also saying.
#6. See what other believers say (But take their words with a grain of salt and look at their verses and see if it is true).
#7. Does the understanding of the passage fit the entirety of the letter, epistle, or book?
#8. Does the understanding of the passage glorify Jesus Christ and His goodness in some way?

Second, have you ever been grieved by evil or the allowance of evil things? That may give you an idea of where I am coming from.

Anyways, I am going to comment on the first two (because God's Word is not determined by man's thoughts), but beyond that, I am not going to endless debate commentaries. I am here to speak the Word of God and to discuss what it says plainly.

Reformation Study Bible disagrees:

1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. This expression calls attention to an important point. In the New Testament it is found only in the Pastoral Letters (3:1; 4:9; 2 Tim. 2:11; Titus 3:8).

I am the foremost. Lit. “I am the first.” This is not a characterization of himself prior to his conversion. Rather, as Paul has grown in Christ he has become increasingly aware of his own sinfulness.

This is very scary. Comments like this is why we are in the last days indeed. The context is 100% clear that it is describing Paul's sinful life before he became a Christian because Paul says of himself (in the third person),

"Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief." (1 Timothy 1:13).

Okay, let's break this down. Paul says BEFORE he was a persecutor. Paul used to persecute Christians. This was his life BEFORE. Paul is not a persecutor of believers while he is a Christian. That doesn't make any sense. Then the second half of the passage says, he did these sinful things ignorantly in unbelief.... hence.... why he was able to obtain mercy like the passage says.

Matthew Henry's Commentary disagrees:

In the close of 1 Tim. 1:15 Paul applies it to himself: Of whom I am chief. Paul was a sinner of the first rank; so he acknowledges himself to have been, for he breathed out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, etc., Acts 9:1, 2. Persecutors are some of the worst of sinners: such a one Paul had been. Or, of whom I am chief, that is, of pardoned sinners I am chief. It is an expression of his great humility; he that elsewhere calls himself the least of all saints (Eph. 3:8) here calls himself the chief of sinners. Observe, [1.] Christ Jesus has come into the world; the prophecies concerning his coming are now fulfilled. [2.] He came to save sinners; he came to save those who could not save and help themselves. [3.] Blasphemers and persecutors are the chief of sinners, so Paul reckoned them. [4.] The chief of sinners may become the chief of saints; so this apostle was, for he was not a whit behind the very chief apostles (2 Cor. 11:5), for Christ came to save the chief of sinners. [5.] This is a very great truth, it is a faithful saying; these are true and faithful words, which may be depended on. [6.] It deserves to be received, to be believed by us all, for our comfort and encouragement.

Matthew Henry's Commentary here is not saying Paul is still a sinner. That is not what his commentary says. He says that Paul acknowledge himself to HAVE BEEN (In the past) at one time as a sinner because he breathed out threatenings and slaughters against the Lord's disciples. In other words, you are not really reading what you are quoting.

Anyways, I am wishing nothing but good things to from the LORD Jesus Christ.

Peace be unto you and I do hope you see one day where I am coming from.

 

[Jason0047]

Your welcome Jason, and thank you for putting to foot your beliefs, authorized by God and His purposes. One clear note, God shows us in obeying Him is as we work to do His will the servant of God has to go thru the experience of things before he is allowed to go thru a study of them. So the worker is required to enter voluntarily into that discipline of his life that will bring into line with God's way for him. All we are asking is that of God's call to be spiritually fit as the foundation of mental rightness. And we equate intellectual discipline to spiritual well-being. The worker for God, I know you attest to, is a unity, spirit, soul and body, and needs to be brought by God's grace and by personal choice and concentration into a harmoniously working whole.

Mere intellectualism can be a great snare and mere religious respect is not enough. The man of God to be thoroughly furnished unto every good work must accept the spiritual discipline of reproof and correction and training in righteousness that the scriptures convey, and also the mental discipline which a right understanding of scripture demands. You and I are not after pious positions but after the ability for people found in Christ to be competent servants of Christ Jesus, spiritually fitted, and mentally fitted, for the great task entrusted to all of His Children. Some are ready to hear that message, others may yet need to reach that point of meaning business with God. Thank You Jason for faithfully caring enough to keep allowing hope to exist, for by it Gods glory is seen, not yours.

Thank you Slave. I wish my name would fade into the dust. Of my own working alone I am nothing. It is only in Him we have meaning and purpose in this world. For Jesus is our everything. His goodness shines a light into a dark and dying world giving it hope, peace, and love. It is my prayer that the LORD draws us all ever closer to Him so as to glorify Himself and Himself alone indeed. For my life is nothing. I am nothing. But Christ.... He is my everything. He is the One in whom I can boast of any good done in my life. He is the One that makes me smile and lights up my spirit when His name is mentioned. Jesus. How sweet the sound.

Thank you again brother for your uplifting words in the faith.

And may Jesus get all the glory indeed.

 

[posthuman]

hmm i dunno, i've heard lots of wicked things said in the English language.
isn't that reason enough to decide dogmatically that anything said or written in English is evil?
we gotta be "separated" and "not give the appearance" you know.
isn't that reason enough to say that anyone speaking English is led astray?

try this Jason: don't speak English for at least 2 years. you can still say exactly the same things, but you can only say them in Aramaic. then come back to it. see if you don't think exactly as i do then.

Sorry, my friend. Now your just not making any sense here.

well dude,
you didn't make any sense when you argued against Christian rock music either.
because what i said here is pretty much the same argument you used, and the same advice you gave.

 

[posthuman]

Reformation Study Bible disagrees:

1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. This expression calls attention to an important point. In the New Testament it is found only in the Pastoral Letters (3:1; 4:9; 2 Tim. 2:11; Titus 3:8).

I am the foremost. Lit. “I am the first.” This is not a characterization of himself prior to his conversion. Rather, as Paul has grown in Christ he has become increasingly aware of his own sinfulness.

Matthew Henry's Commentary disagrees:

In the close of 1 Tim. 1:15 Paul applies it to himself: Of whom I am chief. Paul was a sinner of the first rank; so he acknowledges himself to have been, for he breathed out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, etc., Acts 9:1, 2. Persecutors are some of the worst of sinners: such a one Paul had been. Or, of whom I am chief, that is, of pardoned sinners I am chief. It is an expression of his great humility; he that elsewhere calls himself the least of all saints (Eph. 3:8) here calls himself the chief of sinners. Observe, [1.] Christ Jesus has come into the world; the prophecies concerning his coming are now fulfilled. [2.] He came to save sinners; he came to save those who could not save and help themselves. [3.] Blasphemers and persecutors are the chief of sinners, so Paul reckoned them. [4.] The chief of sinners may become the chief of saints; so this apostle was, for he was not a whit behind the very chief apostles (2 Cor. 11:5), for Christ came to save the chief of sinners. [5.] This is a very great truth, it is a faithful saying; these are true and faithful words, which may be depended on. [6.] It deserves to be received, to be believed by us all, for our comfort and encouragement.

The Asbury Bible Commentary disagrees:

Why are they given to the church? Their purpose is to prepare God's people for works of service. To what end? These offices are of first importance because those who have these gifts/offices direct others to perform their respective ministries for the common good. As persons perform better their particular ministries, the entire body is strengthened. The body builder knows that each muscle must be strengthened if the whole body is to be developed properly. Some persons in the community fill the vital role of assisting others to exercise their gifts that the whole body of Christ might be built up.

I. Remember The Command (1:1-20)

In this opening chapter, Paul reminds Timothy of his important role in managing God's household (vv. 3-4), defines the goal of God's command (v. 5), explains the role of the Law (vv. 8-11), testifies to the Lord's grace in saving the worst of sinners (vv. 12-17), and challenges Timothy to fight the good fight (v. 18).
D. Salvation of Paul (1:12-17)

Faith is central to salvation (v. 12). Describing himself (v. 13), Paul asserts that his actions were a result of ignorance and unbelief, and he was shown mercy. This seems to suggest that willful disobedience will not receive God's mercy. Paul asserts that his own life is a pattern of God's patient mercy for those who would believe in Christ and receive eternal life. Christ considered him faithful; strengthened him; appointed him to service; showed mercy to him (vv. 13, 16); poured out grace, faith, and love on him; saved him; and displayed unlimited patience toward him. Reflecting on this, Paul breaks out in a doxology to the eternal, sovereign God.

yes ^^

but you don't even need all that -- it's clear:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5547 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Christos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Χριστὸς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Christ[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2424 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Iēsous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἰησοῦς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Jesus[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2064 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ēlthen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἦλθεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]came[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1519 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]into[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ton[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2889 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kosmon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κόσμον[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]world[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]268 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hamartōlous[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἁμαρτωλοὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]sinners[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4982 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]sōsai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]σῶσαι·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]to save,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ANA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3739 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὧν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of whom[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]RelPro-GMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4413 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]prōtos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πρῶτός[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][the] foremost[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eimi[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰμι[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]am[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIA-1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]egō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐγώ·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-N1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

eimi ego -- present, active tense verb.

Paul did not say "i was the foremost of sinners" and i rather think his Greek is good enough to say what he means.
interpreting what he wrote any other way is just twisting the scripture to fit a preconception.

 

[slave]

Thank you Slave. I wish my name would fade into the dust. Of my own working alone I am nothing. It is only in Him we have meaning and purpose in this world. For Jesus is our everything. His goodness shines a light into a dark and dying world giving it hope, peace, and love. It is my prayer that the LORD draws us all ever closer to Him so as to glorify Himself and Himself alone indeed. For my life is nothing. I am nothing. But Christ.... He is my everything. He is the One in whom I can boast of any good done in my life. He is the One that makes me smile and lights up my spirit when His name is mentioned. Jesus. How sweet the sound.

Thank you again brother for your uplifting words in the faith.

And may Jesus get all the glory indeed.

You are not alone, there are many true followers of God, and I am a friend to you because of this love you have for others.I understand that the realization that the Lord has enabled you to be a worker keeps you strong enough not to be weak, for conscious obtrusive weakness is natural unthankful strength; it means I refuse to be made strong by Him.If you were to say I am too weak, it would mean you are too strong. If you stopped after a few avertible hits in here you would be human for sure, but it would mean you are saying to God, "I won't" when you say outwardly, "I can't." Be encouraged my friend, for I know you know, when Jesus Christ enables us, we are omnipotently strong all the time. Hey, this is why Paul said, " when we are weak, then will we be strong." This is Gods hand in the things you do!

It encourages me to give encouragement unfettered by spiritual discontent among us. For we are single-minded, and regardless of us being different people, people will see that same Spirit bond of brotherhood as a sign of God Himself. God bless you richly. Now get back to work, God will refill your bucket to overflowing...I know He will give the good stuff on your knees! Smile.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Your welcome Jason, and thank you for putting to foot your beliefs, authorized by God and His purposes. One clear note, God shows us in obeying Him is as we work to do His will the servant of God has to go thru the experience of things before he is allowed to go thru a study of them. So the worker is required to enter voluntarily into that discipline of his life that will bring into line with God's way for him. All we are asking is that of God's call to be spiritually fit as the foundation of mental rightness. And we equate intellectual discipline to spiritual well-being. The worker for God, I know you attest to, is a unity, spirit, soul and body, and needs to be brought by God's grace and by personal choice and concentration into a harmoniously working whole.

Mere intellectualism can be a great snare and mere religious respect is not enough. The man of God to be thoroughly furnished unto every good work must accept the spiritual discipline of reproof and correction and training in righteousness that the scriptures convey, and also the mental discipline which a right understanding of scripture demands. You and I are not after pious positions but after the ability for people found in Christ to be competent servants of Christ Jesus, spiritually fitted, and mentally fitted, for the great task entrusted to all of His Children. Some are ready to hear that message, others may yet need to reach that point of meaning business with God. Thank You Jason for faithfully caring enough to keep allowing hope to exist, for by it Gods glory is seen, not yours.

Finally, someone who sees the larger picture. Thanks Slave.
-WW

+ Has helped me better understand both KennethC and Jason0047's words.

 

[slave]

Finally, someone who sees the larger picture. Thanks Slave.
-WW

+ Has helped me better understand both KennethC and Jason0047's words.

Different tools doing the same work is all.....I think God has a firm grip on you wounded Warrior, but sometimes we need to let go of gripping back, it get's in the way of the firmer grip of God.God bless you brother!

See the difference between the God Posse and a Christ lead band of brothers?

 

[Jason0047]

Anyone who teaches a sin and still be saved gospel is an enemy of all righteousness. OSAS is the biggest lie these days that is dragging people into Hell. Repent and believe in Jesus Christ and turn from your sins. One cannot stay in their sin and refuse to repent of it and expect to be saved. It doesn't work like that. God will not condone a believer's sin. God is Holy and good and just. He will not allow for a person to do evil.

 

[BradC]

Anyone who teaches a sin and still be saved gospel is an enemy of all righteousness. OSAS is the biggest lie these days that is dragging people into Hell. Repent and believe in Jesus Christ and turn from your sins. One cannot stay in their sin and refuse to repent of it and expect to be saved. It doesn't work like that. God will not condone a believer's sin. God is Holy and good and just. He will not allow for a person to do evil.

The light and understanding you possess is turning into darkness and a form of righteousness that falls short of the grace of God Jason because you do not have the understanding of the Spirit concerning the finished work. Until you humble yourself and turn from your religious pride you will never receive the grace you need to understand the finished work. There is no believer who has been saved by the grace of God that makes a provision to continue to live in the flesh without God bringing them under his hand of discipline and revealing to them what the cross has done. Jason you fail to have this in your doctrine and it is leading you away from the finished work as you condemn others.

 

[Jason0047]

The light and understanding you possess is turning into darkness and a form of righteousness that falls short of the grace of God Jason because you do not have the understanding of the Spirit concerning the finished work. Until you humble yourself and turn from your religious pride you will never receive the grace you need to understand the finished work. There is no believer who has been saved by the grace of God that makes a provision to continue to live in the flesh without God bringing them under his hand of discipline and revealing to them what the cross has done. Jason you fail to have this in your doctrine and it is leading you away from the finished work as you condemn others.

There can be no righteousness for a believer if they promote sin in some way. For if one says they can be saved while sinning, they are condoning evil. This is all very basic as far as morality is concerned, but if you do not understand it, you can always pray to the LORD for that type of understanding.

 

[gb9]

There can be no righteousness for a believer if they promote sin in some way. For if one says they can be saved while sinning, they are condoning evil. This is all very basic as far as morality is concerned, but if you do not understand it, you can always pray to the LORD for that type of understanding.

if if if, blah blah blah. perhaps you could try to join us here in the REAL WORLD one day.

 

[BradC]

There can be no righteousness for a believer if they promote sin in some way. For if one says they can be saved while sinning, they are condoning evil. This is all very basic as far as morality is concerned, but if you do not understand it, you can always pray to the LORD for that type of understanding.

You are deceived by your own religious pride if you believe that others are promoting sin. Salvation comes by grace through faith and not by any work of repentance on our part. When we turn from ourselves and respond to the gospel when we hear it, that is when the believer is made righteous, all by faith without works lest he boast in himself as having a part in his own salvation.

 

[gb9]

You are deceived by your own religious pride if you believe that others are promoting sin. Salvation comes by grace through faith and not by any work of repentance on our part. When we turn from ourselves and respond to the gospel when we hear it, that is when the believer is made righteous, all by faith without works lest he boast in himself as having a part in his own salvation.

right. self-deceived. religious pride. the sad thing is, most who have that do not realize they have. it is hidden behind the cloak of " personal holiness , doing the right thing, speaking Biblical truth, etc.." these are wonderful and necessary , until pride gets involved.

 

[Jason0047]

You are deceived by your own religious pride if you believe that others are promoting sin. Salvation comes by grace through faith and not by any work of repentance on our part. When we turn from ourselves and respond to the gospel when we hear it, that is when the believer is made righteous, all by faith without works lest he boast in himself as having a part in his own salvation.

Right, do you not believe you can die in unrepentant sin (Such as lying, lusting, and hating) and still be saved? Do you believe you can be out of fellowship (No doubt because fo sin) and still be saved? Do you believe you will always sin, thereby making an excuse to sin sometime in the future (As if it is premeditated)? This is all making an allowance for sin.

But John 3:20 says, that all who do evil hate the Light. So if one is doing evil (with the thinking they are saved), then in reality they hate the real Jesus Christ of the Bible because Jesus is the Light in the context of John 3:20.