"If you continue to sin, you go to hell"

[TannarDarr]

@Tannar

I'm trying to figure out where this alter call keep coming from?? lol. Also, I actually don't use the Strongs as much as I'll like to. I usually use a Greek-to-English while reading the Interlinear Bible. But I'm going to hit on certain points that you brought out, starting with Ephesians 4.

Ok I'll own my error, I've put it in about five different conversations, so I assumed you were in one and had seen it. I'm guilty.

I see you focused on the section regarding spiritual gifts.

I'd say about Spiritual maturity, not gifts. The "gifts" part is a v ery very very brief fraction of the passage.

It says that God has appointed people to be different things in the body of Christ (not all of those positions are church leaders, but some are)

I disagree, ALL are church leaders in the Corporate view of the Church as established by Christ of the order of Melchizedek.

to equip saints(((((for what?)))) TO PREPARE THE PEOPLE FOR THE WORKS OF MINISTRY>>>>>>>> to the the work of the ministry, (((( to do what?)))) to build up the Body of Christ. How are we equipped and what are we equipped with?


We get our instruction from the Word of God.

Why, then, did it say we get it from those leaders in the church, and that the knowledge came through the works they were to lead us to do. I really think you need to rely on the text, not your recollection here. You are really bending it a good bit. I'm not saying on purpose.

So we are equipped with instruction from the Word and then we go do. Read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 regarding this.

Ok, let me be clear. You are going to take an altered version of the Ephesians 4 message, say it means something you see in another letter for another context, to a particular person, not a church and claim that the latter part, to the single person, redefines and changes the meaning of the words in Eph 4?

I don't think so. I work hard at NOT practicing eisegetics. :| Please, go read the verses and show me the justification for your thoughts in the text. Cover the local text before corroboration. Corroboration is irrelevant to your thoughts, if you can't make the words in the original verses support it. And in this case, you can't.

Romans 6:22 - We have been set free from sin, and because we are free from sin we are slaves to God (as stated in verse 18). The result/outcome (fruit) of being slaves to God is purification (holiness) with the finished result being eternal life.


On that note, I will have to finish this up tomorrow. About to get ready to eat but I will address the other parts tomorrow. Be blessed.

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Rom 6:22
[/TD]
[TD]But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you fnderive your fnbenefit, fnresulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
So, you don't think a person freed from sin, is saved. Ok, that's a first. I'm guilty of presumption. Man, I hate doing things I dont' approve of.


So, I read it as first freed from sin, second enslaved to God, vs 16, slave to whom you obey. You aren't obedient instantly. I don't care what you say, it's a process. You get Grace, but that hasn't switched your slavehood. In fact Romans 8 says it's not switched until the Spirit indwells you, and that means you are no longer in the flesh. I'm still in the flesh, how about you? Yes, flesh/sarx/sinful nature. It's gone, when the Spirit indwells. Not present and shows up sometimes, but gone. Like a circumcision, they don't' grow back.

BUT the problem I have from your comment is you make the obedience and the benefit the same thing/same instant. In fact as you describe it, it appears you see the freedfromsin/obedient/benefit/fruit all sorta the same breath of things.

You don't get the benefit from the first obedient act. It's the process. AND from obedience you DERIVE your benefit.. you get your benefit, you hold your benefit, but it happens after obedience.

The outcome of the fruit/benefit is what results in eternal life.

Now, I can corroborate this with John and Paul, the most "doctrinal" authors in the NT. The order to Sanctification is consistent in all.

I'm much more intereste din coming BACK to this one. The Ephesians 4, from my view of the text, you totally altered. NO NOT ON PURPOSE OR WITH AGENDA, I'm just saying how it looks from my view.



10 [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]We agree that's the [/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]Christ[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif], right?[/FONT]
==========

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] [/FONT]11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Not part of an individual church, but the leaders of the Corporate Church. You have no church without the Apostles, or the Prophets, nor the evangelists nor pastors, nor teachers. Those are the people that built, established the Church at Christ's appointment...
===============

12 for the equipping of the fnsaints for the work of service,

They were appointed to equip the saints for WORKS OF SERVICE. (gal 5:6)
===============


to the building up of the body of Christ;

To build they church they lead up.
=================

13 until we all attain

Now we discuss the individual members "we all" vs the corporate "body of Christ'.
============


to the unity of the faith,
From works of service....


and of the fnknowledge of the Son of God,
From works of service...
=====================

HOW built up are we talking?
to a mature man,

telioo/perfect/mature

==================
HOW MATURE?

to the measure of the stature

If Christ's maturity is measured in a glass, our glass is just as full, and it's just as big.
We don't have a lesser maturity than HE had.

This is a result of the works of service the church leads us to.

===================
fnwhich belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Just in case people didn't believe it was THAT mature. I mean quadruple redundancy here.... gotta take him serious, no?

 

[jahsoul]

@Tannar

I'm going to make this quick because I'm at work but will ask more questions when I get home but what altered text am I'm reading? I can tell you what versions of the Bible I'm reading. I'm reading the NKJV cross referenced to the Interlinear Bible.


What was altered in anything that I said and what version are you reading that makes what I"m reading altered? Also, how is directly quoting bending?


Also, its crazy how you harp on Ephesians 4 saying "through works, led by the leaders of the CHURCH you get UNITY and KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST," but totally disregard a letter to a CHURCH LEADER saying that Scripture is used for "instruction in righteousness," that the man of God may be perfect (complete), FULLY FURNISHED TO DO GOOD WORKS as just some unrelated letter written to one person. If Ephesians say that church leaders equip saints to do good works and 2 Timothy shows what the church leader uses to equip the saints, how can they not be tied? And on a quick side note, it is believed that Timothy taught at the church of Ephesus based on 1 Tim 1:3

 

[svedbygrace]

"If you continue to sin, you go to hell"

Wonder if Christ died for your sins ?

 

[BeanieD]

We won't be perfect until we are finally home with our Lord and our God. Until then, we are just as suceptible to sin as anyone else, except that we don't allow ourselves to be RULED by sin any longer.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

We have all heard that statement.

But it doesn't make sense.

For example


You've heard this quote, "I am not perfect."

matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect

Will that person ever be perfect? If they have faith, yes they will be perfect if they have faith.

Do you pray nonstop?

17 Pray without ceasing.

Again i ask the question


Does someone go to hell for continuing to sin?

HI owenheidenreich
I think that in our spirit we have been reborn and sealed,and in our flesh we are renewing our mind.

romans 7

viewing the king james version(kjv)
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

viewing the king james version(kjv)

John 6

63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

viewing the king james version(kjv)


2 Corinthians 1
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

 

[TannarDarr]

@Tannar

I'm going to make this quick because I'm at work but will ask more questions when I get home but what altered text am I'm reading? I can tell you what versions of the Bible I'm reading. I'm reading the NKJV cross referenced to the Interlinear Bible.
View attachment 56813

What was altered in anything that I said and what version are you reading that makes what I"m reading altered? Also, how is directly quoting bending?


Also, its crazy how you harp on Ephesians 4 saying "through works, led by the leaders of the CHURCH you get UNITY and KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST," but totally disregard a letter to a CHURCH LEADER saying that Scripture is used for "instruction in righteousness," that the man of God may be perfect (complete), FULLY FURNISHED TO DO GOOD WORKS as just some unrelated letter written to one person. If Ephesians say that church leaders equip saints to do good works and 2 Timothy shows what the church leader uses to equip the saints, how can they not be tied? And on a quick side note, it is believed that Timothy taught at the church of Ephesus based on 1 Tim 1:3

Oooo NKJV The ONLY holy bible, the rest are cheap knock offs, right? It still says the same thing.

I've already told your read on it was off center. You can go back and address it or go away. I'm not repeating myself and playing your circular exercise of ARgue, get answered, ignore answer give new arguments, get new answers, ignore those answers, start another point, get called out on it again, then use the first argument in conclusion like it is the answer to a problem.

You don't deny that EPh 4 says you get maturity through works But THEN SUGGEST THE BIBLE CONTRADICTS ITSELF because you think some other verse disagrees with Eph 4. Rofl, do you not understand how ridiculous that is?

In the letter to the church leader, he said that the church leaders would do the teachings, which is what Eph four says as well. You see a contradiction, yet it all fits just fine with no contradiction my way.


Timothy of course taught, but who did he teach? The people or their teachers?

Have you ever read 1 clement? It was taking out of the first KJV BIBLE that first bore the name HOLY BIBLE, so you may not even touch it, I dunno fifty fifty on that one... If it was the HOLY BIBLE, why did they take out books they included in it's holiness???? That's a bit peculiar....

WHy can't you address eph four? Why do you not answer the exegetics. It either says or doesn't say what I presented. Your position is either it doesnt' say what it says, or I'm wrong in what it says. BUT AS LONG AS my interpretation is in line with the words, and your view disagrees and shows scripture contradicts.....

ALSO, why do you make so many points, that I answer then drop them and run from that part of the chat?????

Until you see something through, rather than bouncing around trying to win something, we aren't getting anywhere.

 

[TannarDarr]

HI owenheidenreich
I think that in our spirit we have been reborn and sealed,and in our flesh we are renewing our mind.

romans 7

viewing the king james version(kjv)
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

viewing the king james version(kjv)

John 6

63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

viewing the king james version(kjv)


2 Corinthians 1
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Paul was no longer in the flesh.

Scripture says HE renews your mind. You say YOU renews YOUR own mind.

Paul says if the Spirit indwells you the flesh is gone, absent, not present any longer.


I think those give your view some problems. Not accusing or griping or anything, just observing!

 

[cfultz3]

Scripture says HE renews your mind. You say YOU renews YOUR own mind.

And how does He renew our mind?

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It would seem that we confirm to Him and are transformed from what we previously was by this renewing of mind (instead of following our flesh, we follow the Spirit). And by this following of the path set before us by the Lord, we prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Paul says if the Spirit indwells you the flesh is gone, absent, not present any longer.

I have seen this instead:

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I think those give your view some problems. Not accusing or griping or anything, just observing!

I think those give your view some problems. Not accusing or griping or anything, just observing!

 

[jahsoul]

@Tanar

Who said anything about KJV only (Hey there Mr. Strawman). I just stated that for this discussion, I read the NKJV with the Interlinear for reference, but if you notice the program that I was using, I can easily reference a translation one a time with 1 click. Now, I didn't say anything about what translation anyone was reading, you brought this up and I ask you what are you reading to question to validity of what I'm reading. You see how that played out?

Not back to the topic, I never contradicted anything that Ephesians 4 said. I don't know how you are reading what I wrote. You are ignoring everything that I've been saying. Instruction + practical application = maturity but that application does not always equate to falling like you suggest. 2 Timothy 3 tells you that the Word of God is used for instruction in righteousness, perfecting a man, equipping them for good works. Tell me how that contradicts Ephesian 4? If it is a contradiction, then what are we equipped with? How can you work without instruction?

And to think about it, you deviated from the original topic. Back to the OT, nothing in the Bible says that sin is a integral part of life after we come to Christ. Ephesians 4 doesn't suggest it (I gotta go back and see how that made it into this discussion) and I highly doubt that you can find somewhere in the Bible that suggest that we must sin on this journey, which is all that I was saying. Do people sin, yes and thank God we have an advocate but to say that failure in this walk is what makes the journey is fallacy, considering we are supposed to be dead from sin. Look at it like this, I have 3 children. I've told all 3 of them about the dangers of touching the stove. 2 learn because I tell them the consequence of touching the stove; 1 learns because he was disobedient to my words, touched the stove, and learned through the experience of pain. Ephesians 4 does not say that we learn through the disobedience of the Word because disobedience /= work of the ministry. Ephesians 4 states that God put those positions in place to fully equip the saints to the work of ministry (I've only seen 4 translations use service, but I digress) for the building up of the Body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and becoming mature (complete), to where our maturity measures that of Christ perfection. Now how do you read it?

I will be honest, I've only read some of 1 Clement but again, that goes back to the straw man.

And what points did I make and drop. I've been super busy at work so I might have skipped something or didn't come back to it. I will go see.

 

[TannarDarr]

@Tanar

Who said anything about KJV only (Hey there Mr. Strawman).

I did. I made a joke because I'd just come from that chat. It was nearly funny.

HOWEVER, I guess what made it funny was YOU WERE THE ONE making the NKJV important in the chat. Not me. Go back and read your text.

I just stated that for this discussion, I read the NKJV with the Interlinear for reference, but if you notice the program that I was using, I can easily reference a translation one a time with 1 click. Now, I didn't say anything about what translation anyone was reading, you brought this up and I ask you what are you reading to question to validity of what I'm reading. You see how that played out?

I bow to your superiority. You know so much more than me and so much better resources. :|

Not back to the topic, I never contradicted anything that Ephesians 4 said. I don't know how you are reading what I wrote. You are ignoring everything that I've been saying. Instruction + practical application = maturity but that application does not always equate to falling like you suggest.

If you don't fall, then you are already mature and there is no need for instruction and learning. You are there. There is no process, if there is nothing to proceed. AND I may likely have confused chats and taken some of my other frustration over being ignored out on you. DO you want me to scroll back here and see if you deserved my comment or not? I'll own my errors.

2 Timothy 3 tells you that the Word of God is used for instruction in righteousness, perfecting a man, equipping them for good works. Tell me how that contradicts Ephesian 4? If it is a contradiction, then what are we equipped with? How can you work without instruction?

Allowing for me confusing you with others in the chat I'd like to listen again to how it does. Seeing as it's written to a church leader, who taught the church's leaders how to teach to the people, I'm very comfy saying, with no doubt, nor forgiveness, that 2 timothy 3 IS NOT SAYING that people teach themselves by reading the Bible. Rather that they are taught, and led by the Church as Paul wrote in Ephesians. Anything else is not going to be kosher, you have to say one or the other verses are broken.

And to think about it, you deviated from the original topic. Back to the OT, nothing in the Bible says that sin is a integral part of life after we come to Christ. Ephesians 4 doesn't suggest it (I gotta go back and see how that made it into this discussion) and I highly doubt that you can find somewhere in the Bible that suggest that we must sin on this journey, which is all that I was saying.

Why is there a process if there is never a sin/fall to get over?

Why did JOhn say to the people IF YOU SIN blah blah blah you have a mediator?

Why did Paul talk about MEAT and MILK Xians and always write one thing to the milk, but talk other things to the meat?

I can give you more reasons to accept my view than you can find for the Trinity, or people going to heaven after they die...

Do people sin, yes and thank God we have an advocate but to say that failure in this walk is what makes the journey is fallacy, considering we are supposed to be dead from sin.

You are either dead to sin, or dead from sin. You aren't both. AND, it's not something you try to "assume the position of". It's like this, either you have the flu or you don't, no "acting" or "behaving" will make you any different. The inside is changed or it isn't.

Look at it like this, I have 3 children. I've told all 3 of them about the dangers of touching the stove. 2 learn because I tell them the consequence of touching the stove; 1 learns because he was disobedient to my words, touched the stove, and learned through the experience of pain.

Yeah, heheh one of them learned from experience the other from teaching. Just as Eph 4 describes. The other two will experience something else they learn from that the first learned from listening.

if EPH 4 doesn't discuss people failing in their walks, and learning from it, why do they need to do ANYTHING to be "perfect"/mature, they would be there. ONCE THEY ARE THERE, it says they are as mature, Spiritually as Christ was. So tell me, If you aren't as mature as Christ is, can you tell me you have been through the Eph 4 experience? Not without calling scripture a lie.
If you are not as mature as Christ was, spiritually can you still sin? Errrrrr yeah.
IF YOU ARE as mature as Christ, would you still sin???? Errrrr nope. If you did you wouldn't be as mature as Christ was.

It's a process to GROW, that's WHY Paul says in Eph 4 you will no longer be children, and wont' be shaken by every whim of theology.

Ephesians 4 does not say that we learn through the disobedience of the Word because disobedience /= work of the ministry.

You are right, it doesn't say it exactly like that. Why do you need a leader to lead you in works to mature, if you are perfect/mature the moment you are "saved" whatever that is as you try to suggest? You'd BE THERE, you would need no leading. BUT the leading gets you through life and that is through works. Works get you to maturity... You aren't mature when you enter the Church, but at a point later.

Ephesians 4 states that God put those positions in place to fully equip the saints to the work of ministry (I've only seen 4 translations use service, but I digress) for the building up of the Body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and becoming mature (complete), to where our maturity measures that of Christ perfection. Now how do you read it?

I've answered that in HUGE detail. You may find my answers there. I'm tired of being run in circles.

I will be honest, I've only read some of 1 Clement but again, that goes back to the straw man.

No it doesn't go back to a strawman, there was a purpose, but since you wish to prevaricate I'll avoid the point.

And what points did I make and drop. I've been super busy at work so I might have skipped something or didn't come back to it. I will go see.

You are joking, right?