"If you continue to sin, you go to hell"

[zone]

It's sorta like this. Salvation is being asked to be on God's baseball team.
But, where you were a power righty pitcher before, and a .400 batter righty before, God says you must now pitch and bat lefty. (I.E. changed life).

Now, joining the team doesn't make you automatically as good a lefty as you were a righty.

You can read books (bible scholar)
watch film (less studious, follows others examples)
until you are confident you know everything there is about throwing lefty and batting lefty.

But when you get on the mound, you'll throw like a physically confused dolt. You'll throw like a second grade girl that has only played with dolls all her life.

What must happen, is this. You must get on the mound and throw the ball lefty. Over and OVER and OVER and OVER,etc.... You'll throw astray several times as you grow to make a "new natural" in your life. ALong those mistakes/bad throws/sins John tells us that we have a mediator who will forgive us.. 1 john 1:8-2:1.



early in chapter two he said those he wrote to still had darkness (sin) to be washed off. The people he wrote to, still had some growing to do, I.E. some sin mindset/lifestyle to be done away with. AND THEN they would be in fellowship with God, not before. John admitted that if you still sinned you weren't mature yet. I.E> perfect. BUT that along the path as you grew, if you fall, Christ still assumes your sin debt. That's called atonement. It's the first step in maturation. You have to reach the point that you know you can come home (prodigal) and after you start the walk, he'll give you strength to get there. When you get there, he'll wash you of your sins (col 2:11 sinful nature/flesh removed from the person) and you'll be His/Home/Clean again.

innovative.
i have no idea where you learned it.

 

[cfultz3]

The banned comment wasn't to you.

It's to another person I know, that I was reading, who got banned for correctly by all of church history describing Trinity.

You don't seem the type to be that petty or petulant.

So, it was towards Phil?

 

[letti]

None should feel Christ is unmerciful,and yet do not forget what true love consists of with and in Christ.True love fulfills the law naturally.Christ loves even the sinful,he did give up his life.I't does not mean no time will come for those who keep on in sin.But he remains willing to forgive and help you with your struggles.ONLY AND ONLY GOD to decide who is not true to him in love.Everyday we are blessed with another day alive is another day to strengthen your love for Christ.

 

[letti]

This is how merciful Christ is how many times does he tell us to forgive those that offend us?

 

[letti]

This does not mean to accept sin,the lawless are doomed to destruction if unwilling to turn from it repent and Love Christ.Rebuke is a intention of love.Lawless deeds are not found in truly loving Christ.We are to avoid people such as these yes.

 

[letti]

People can become confused Love yes Hate no,and yet do not accept lawlessness stay away from those practicing it.

 

[Hizikyah]

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

Iniquity is Word #458 from word #459, Greek Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning not subject to (Yahweh's) Laws, transgressor.

 

[letti]

I agree with you Hizikyah that is why A judgement shall occur but remember also we must forgive anybody willing to turn to Christ of a true repenting heart,but as I said Light mingles with it's own kind.Do not birds of a feather flock together.

 

[Hizikyah]

It's refreshing to hear somone who words line up with the Scriptures:

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

Luke 6:37, "Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Do not take vengeance, and vengeance will not be taken upon you. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Luke 17:3-4, "So be on your guard! If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him! But if he repents, forgive him! And if he trespasses against you seven times in one day, and seven times in that day turns to you, and says; I repent; then
you must forgive him."

 

[TannarDarr]

Awesome analogy but then we must ask ourselves, is the Holy Spirit, coupled with the Word of God and proper instruction not enough to keep up? (which will be a central theme to my post and will tie in when I get Romans 8). That is the key difference in your analogy and baseball. It's one thing to take on a new nature alone but it's another knowing that we have something in us once we accept Christ that we didn't have before. (another tie in to Romans 7 & 8).

Not enough to keep up.... keep up with what? If you trust that Word of God, it says that you are to get your maturity through works, not study. In fact it says that the knowledge you gain that is important comes from works, not study. AND it says that what you learn to guide your walk, comes from the direction of those church leaders appointed by God. So, not being Catholic of the Roman or other Catholic descent, I have to note, they have that one right and me as a protestant does not. Eph 43:11-17. err 4: not 43:.

What praytell do you think you have in you?

My analogy, shows, hopefully, that you can read books and study and know everything you need to know about throwing and batting lefty. But if you are a righty, it won't do you any good, until you get out and do the work. ONLY THEN will you be changed to a different person. You aren't made a different person by being invited to the team, that's just a small step. Altar call theology I teasingly call it. Not anywhere in scripture. Really ticks off my friends. They'll give an AH OH if someone says something that they know is a tweak. It's fun.

Actually, that was moreso in Chapter 1. In Chapter 2, John begins it by saying he is writing this so that they may not sin. And he was even more stern in Chapter 3, saying that whoever sins (hamartánoon) has not seen or known Him. Wow. Honestly, the first step of maturation is surviving the test of temptation that opens the door to sin.

Nooo, you are looking at it backwards. You are adopting the benefits from the journey before the journey.

Why does he want them to not sin? According to 1 j 1:3-7 it was so they would be in fellowship with them, and they were in fellowship with God and His Son. To do that they had to walk in the light as He does.
BUT IF YOU DO SIN, yo uhave a mediator and can be forgiven, does that sound like someone who isn't under Grace to you? So those he wrote to were not in fellowship with Divinity, but they were under Grace. In 3:6 you find that if they are still sinning they don't know Him and haven't met Him. BUT THEY STILL HAD GRACE. 1 john 1:9.

He wrote it so they may not sin, so they could get there. In 2:8 or 9 they only needed a little more darkness to be gone, and then they would be in fellowship, but..> THEY STILL HAD GRACE!!!!!....

Hey, I love Romans 6 too but if you read it, it pretty much draws a spritual line in the sand; you are either a slave to Christ OR a slave to sin. Should we sin because we are no longer under the law but grace? Also, I believe that you read that wrong. Romans 6:22 doesn't state that you have been atoned for; but it states that you have been set free (eleutheroo) from sin. That presents it in a whole new light then the way set forth. Christ atonement on the cross is the act that brought forth the state of being set free from sin.

You understand the word sanctified, yes? Why are they not sanctified at the first of the list in 6:22 rather than at the end of 22? AFTER they receive the benefit?

ANd why, if being freed from sin means they no longer sin, is he warning them that are already freed, not to sin? That really doesn't make much sense in the way the chapter reads. But that is a whole other chapter.... errr thread, I mean. We shouldn't take that tangent here... If you make one, invite me please?

And yes, it is things that we do regarding staying strong in the Lord. I've never seen my Bible glide to me nor was forced to get on my knees and pray. The Bible tells us to put on the full armour of God. so we can stand against the enemy. Things are not a given, and that's probably why people fall into continual sin. Again, do we give the Holy Spirit any credit?

Respectfully, it sounds like you are giving yourself and what you do (meaning OURSELVES ) the credit for things.... not the Spirit. Putting on the whole armor of God. THERE IS NO U IN ARMOR!!!!!!

Europeans and their infatuation with "U"s.... sigh...

Scripture, again, says the important thing you learn is by being guided by the Church to works, not by reading the Bible. In fact it says Knowledge PUFFS UP. Why do you think there are fifty billion protestant denominations? TOO much knowledge, too many chiefs not enough tee pees. but, it says that through works you are built up..... it's a very definite delineation between the two paths. One puffs up, the other builds up...

Again, maturation does not equal sin. Do some sin along the way? Yes but in life, we have those who learn from being taught and those who feel like they need experience.

Umm no maturation means you have learned to love as God loves. Period. Not sinning is a result of the love finally blossoming inside of you, something only the Gardner can tend to. Not the flower stem.

Romans 7 & 8 or as I like to call it "The Power of God in the transition from Law to Spirit." If you read Romans 7, he speaks of life under the Law. Where I don't have nothing but myself to try to steer my actions. I want to do what right but I have nothing to keep me from doing wrong. This is exactly what Paul was talking about. The law was not bad in itself but sin produced an evil desire in what the Law showed was sin. Also, the Law in itself could not bring life. If you read 25, you would see one thing missing. He mentioned that he followed the law in his mind but sin in his flesh, but what about the Spirit.

you do realize Paul wasn't discussing himself there, right? That it was a "historical present" tense?

If he was discussing himself, then romans 7:5,6 where he says he's no longer IN THE FLESH, is really going to complicate things for you.

But, you are correct to draw the line with the SPIRIT being the missing part. Which is what he covers in 8:9, and it sounds like we'll agree on this... But when the Spirit indwells you, the flesh is no longer there. It's one or the other, not both and. And in Gal 5 it says if the Spirit is inside of you that you can not sin. or rather that you will not give into temptation, which is other than semantics, the same thing.

Romans 8 brings that in. There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk according to the Spirit. Because the law was weak through flesh, God sent his Son in sinful flesh, and while living a sinless life, condemned sin in the flesh. Because of the Spirit, the righteous requirement of the law was fulfilled. Romans 8 also tells us that the Spirit helps us in our weakness.

it doesn't help us, it's the car, the driver and the motor, taking us home. We are there for the ride.

So, to finish this off, what changes our life is the Holy Spirit. Sin is not the process to change our lives but the sign of one weak in the Spirit. If sinning is part of the process to change my life, I totally negate the power and purpose of the Holy Spirit.

If you claim to be indwelled by the spirit, and still be in the flesh, you contradict scripture. Where does jahsoul see himself at there?

BTW, I use YOU in the general sense, as in for EVERYONE. I'll be clear when it means to you personally.... I'm usually not talking about you personally unless it's obviously you personally, like you said....

 

[TannarDarr]

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

Iniquity is Word #458 from word #459, Greek Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning not subject to (Yahweh's) Laws, transgressor.

Ummm that doesn't' say, nor does it mean, that you have to be sin free for grace.

Not sure what yo uare trying to show there...

And iniquity existed before God's laws.

AND Christ's church isn't under the laws, but rather the Order of Melchizedek, who lived before the laws and before the Jews. God had a presence on earth before the Jews. Christ's Church takes us back to there.

 

[TannarDarr]

So, it was towards Phil?

It wasn't directed to anyone. It was a general comment about what can happen IF xyz occurs.

Do you want to continue on the personal stuff or get back to the chat?

Link me to that comment of mine and I'll diagram the comment to clear it up.

I'm on my phone, it's impossible for me to navigate it yet on here.

 

[TannarDarr]

innovative.
i have no idea where you learned it.

I'm sure I've taken parts from lots of different people through the years.

As long as it tracks with scripture, it makes for a good tool.

 

[TannarDarr]

Yes I'm serious. The same word is used for incestuous rape in the Septuagint. HOW DOES THAT fit into your definitioN? It also is used for people lusting ungodly things, how does that fit into your definition?

Or do you continually avoid those for lack of an answer?

look strongs is not your LANGUAGE STANDARD these days. In fact it's rudimentary compared to other tools. BUT IT IS FREE and easy to access on the net.

I'm giving you context, that was written over 2100 years ago, to put the word in focus. I am not thinking strongs which is what, 200 years old??? is going to correct the language it was originally written in.

Either you are really sticking to your guns, or I'm missing something....

You can "look at anythign" with whatever colored glasses you want and make it appear to be whatever you want. One can't go back 2200 years and rewrite ancient texts and change their meaning to suit our needs.

What am I missing?

 

[zone]

Nooo, you are looking at it backwards. You are adopting the benefits from the journey before the journey.

Why does he want them to not sin? According to 1 j 1:3-7 it was so they would be in fellowship with them, and they were in fellowship with God and His Son. To do that they had to walk in the light as He does.
BUT IF YOU DO SIN, yo uhave a mediator and can be forgiven, does that sound like someone who isn't under Grace to you? So those he wrote to were not in fellowship with Divinity, but they were under Grace. In 3:6 you find that if they are still sinning they don't know Him and haven't met Him. BUT THEY STILL HAD GRACE. 1 john 1:9.

He wrote it so they may not sin, so they could get there. In 2:8 or 9 they only needed a little more darkness to be gone, and then they would be in fellowship, but..> THEY STILL HAD GRACE!!!!!....

stop. okay?
it's awful.

 

[TannarDarr]

stop. okay?
it's awful.

Ok, so when stuck in a corner you lash out. Nice to know. Now I can avoid trying to engage you unless I'm praising you. Save me and you both a lotta headaches.

OF COURSE had you addressed the thinking at all, rather than making an attempt to discredit me with ridicule, I may still respect you.

50=50 on that one... could go either way.

 

[Bookends]

can somebody lend me a hand here?

Did God forgive King David for going into Bathsheba and for killing a man after David's repentance? Did God tell King David of his sin(s) through the prophet Nathan? Did God take away the consequences of that sin? Did King David repeat that sin(s)?

What you could have done is drink a beer and told them you didn't want anymore. Let them ask you why? Tell them you invited Christ in your life (give them your testimony, witness for Christ). It's obvious you are not ready. Dig yourself deeply in the word of God my friend, Get the word of God into you, equip yourself to give reason(s) for your faith, pray asking for wisdom and strength, and find a good bible/gospel believing/preaching church to help hold you accountable. Why do I say all this? because I've been there before bro, I let God down so many times. But now, I have a firm hold on Christ my God, and he has a delivered me and is still delivering me and will not let out of His hand.

Oh Abba Father, how GREAT thou art!

 

[cfultz3]

Yes I'm serious. The same word is used for incestuous rape in the Septuagint. HOW DOES THAT fit into your definitioN? It also is used for people lusting ungodly things, how does that fit into your definition?

Tannar,

So agape (G25) means rape. Are you saying that God so raped the world? Are you saying that God is rape? That we are to rape our enemies? I searched the Septuagint and not once did I see where agape in its 353 matches is used for that word. Would you show me where it is translated as "rape"? Just one verse will do and I will never bother you again.

Or do you continually avoid those for lack of an answer?

look strongs is not your LANGUAGE STANDARD these days. In fact it's rudimentary compared to other tools. BUT IT IS FREE and easy to access on the net.

So, I went to the internet and asked "does agape mean rape". I was not able to find where this free and easy access you claim is there. So, I say again, by your definition, God is rape. This is just sickening.

I'm giving you context, that was written over 2100 years ago, to put the word in focus. I am not thinking strongs which is what, 200 years old??? is going to correct the language it was originally written in.

So then, let us think Scripture: God so raped the world. Foolish person.

Either you are really sticking to your guns, or I'm missing something....

You are missing that Scripture says that God is Agape (Love).

You can "look at anythign" with whatever colored glasses you want and make it appear to be whatever you want. One can't go back 2200 years and rewrite ancient texts and change their meaning to suit our needs.

What am I missing?

What you are missing? Well, God is certainly not a rapist. You fool.

 

[Bookends]

Then if I would think like that what is the use of Repenting everytime I kneel down? I am tired of todays church. They think that's enough. Lookwarm and love it! What? Hell is not that Lukewarm. Take care of where you are going! I am going to repent for what I've done. look at this revelation, if you pray every morning, and repent every morning, the bible says God's mercy is new every morning. So I do repent every morning, and every time when I kneel down look at the Lords prayer, it's the base for my prayer. I respect you!

Praise God, I thought you were saying you were perfect and being overly judgmental toward those who struggle against sin. There are still well balanced churches out that preach/teach grace with accountability but remember this, not everyone grows in Christ at the same rate. The response I heard from you sounded a bit pompous to me, and degrading, rather then building up in love out of gentleness and respect. If I was wrong, please forgive me.

 

[zone]

Ok, so when stuck in a corner you lash out. Nice to know. Now I can avoid trying to engage you unless I'm praising you. Save me and you both a lotta headaches.

OF COURSE had you addressed the thinking at all, rather than making an attempt to discredit me with ridicule, I may still respect you.

50=50 on that one... could go either way.

i already addressed it. (so did cfultz3 - you dissed him too)

you didn't like the answer.

john was addressing gnosticism.

1st century gnosticism:

The unknowable God was far too pure and perfect to have anything to do with the material universe which was considered evil. Therefore, God generated lesser divinities, or emenations. One of these emanations, Wisdom desired to know the unknowable God. Out of this erring desire the demiurge an evil god was formed and it was this evil god that created the universe. He along with archons kept the mortals in bondage in material matter and tried to prevent the pure spirit souls from ascending back to god after the death of the physical bodies. Since, according to the Gnostics, matter is evil, deliverance from material form was attainable only through special knowledge revealed by special Gnostic teachers. Christ was the divine redeemer who descended from the spiritual realm to reveal the knowledge necessary for this redemption. In conclusion, Gnosticism is dualistic. That is, it teaches there is a good and evil, spirit and matter, light and dark, etc. dualism in the universe. - Matt Slick



1 John 1
The Word of Life
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4And we are writing these things so that oura joy may be complete.

Walking in the Light
5This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


they believed that they could transcend the material world - their evil flesh bodies, and live purely in pure spirit of their own - and therefore have fellowship with God - through secret knowledge.

john is telling them, and us, that:

NO.
God is not darkness and light.
He is only Light.

NO.
you can not transcend out of your sinful nature through secret knowledge, you must acknowledge you have sinned; and have sin.

NO.
you can not walk in the Light (fellowship with God) without confessing your need for Jesus the TRUE Savior; BECAUSE you have sinned, and have sin.

YES.
you can walk in the Light (He is Light - have fellowship with Him) IF you confess your sins (understand your need, and His Work) : the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

THE CONDITIONS FOR WALKING IN THE LIGHT:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

how is this possible:

the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. - not secret knowledge.

(some of these sects believed they should sin rampantly - licentiousness)

Ok, so when stuck in a corner you lash out. Nice to know. Now I can avoid trying to engage you unless I'm praising you. Save me and you both a lotta headaches.

OF COURSE had you addressed the thinking at all, rather than making an attempt to discredit me with ridicule, I may still respect you.

50=50 on that one... could go either way.

well, it doesnt matter if you respect me.
it matters if you learn about what youre talking about before you keep posting on it repeatedly.

k...love you