I'm Not Worthless

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#41
Another theological cemetary.
So you recommend a secular institution of socialism like Yale or Harvard? Better yet send them to a state college to learn how to drink and fornicate.

PCC and a number of similar schools have produced some very fine Christian graduates who serve the Lord in many capacities.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
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#42
So ignorant of what's being talked about on so many levels. I also can't watch YouTube videos. And there are different definitions of legalism out there. What exactly makes them feel bad? Rules? Breaking rules? Having too many rules? Having too many rituals? Being too strict? Blaming yourself when you break rules? Being satisfied when you abide by the rules? Not being lenient? This also might be helpful in raising a daughter, since I'd like to do that one day; and it will obviously entail some rules.
In places like PCC, men are preferred over women. Their spirituality, their headship, their opinion: all are important over a woman's. Kristen in the video talked about earning the same degree as the men, but men not even engaging her in conversation. She described an outreach to fathers, but not to mothers. And they were told that youth groups should invest in and strengthen the boys and assume that the girls would just follow.

All of this makes a woman feel like she is not valued, unimportant, or even evil because of only her gender. She feels like a thing, not a person. She wonders why God even bothered to make her if she was just going to be an afterthought.

When we define people only by the roles we allow them to play, we are denying their personhood and belittling God's creation.
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
45
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#43
So you recommend a secular institution of socialism like Yale or Harvard? Better yet send them to a state college to learn how to drink and fornicate.

PCC and a number of similar schools have produced some very fine Christian graduates who serve the Lord in many capacities.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I think I would prefer outright attacks that I can see coming over slivers of subtlety that are only recognized after they have festered for years.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#44
In places like PCC, men are preferred over women. Their spirituality, their headship, their opinion: all are important over a woman's. Kristen in the video talked about earning the same degree as the men, but men not even engaging her in conversation. She described an outreach to fathers, but not to mothers. And they were told that youth groups should invest in and strengthen the boys and assume that the girls would just follow.

All of this makes a woman feel like she is not valued, unimportant, or even evil because of only her gender. She feels like a thing, not a person. She wonders why God even bothered to make her if she was just going to be an afterthought.

When we define people only by the roles we allow them to play, we are denying their personhood and belittling God's creation.
Have you been to PCC? Have you set foot on the campus? I have met some very Godly young women that graduated from PCC. They received a good education that prepared them to live a productive life for the Lord.

I'm not saying they, PCC, are perfect but they do not merit the character assignation that is going on here.

Anyone who fails to respect women and honor them in the Lord is not exhibiting the character of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
45
0
#45
I grew up in this environment so i know dozens of PCC grads. I attended BJU and found similar problems. My little sister is a BJU grad and now an agnostic. There are a lot of people who do just fine after going to those colleges, but those are the ones that have either had no reason question what they are taught or have simply come to the same conclusions.

The problem is that most people are sheep and don't question what they are told until it bites them in the butt. Honestly, that is probably a much happier existence. My sisters and brother and I were raised by intelligent members of an Independent Baptist church and taught us to be free thinkers, to challenge what we are told according to scripture. The truth is that legalism in places like PCC and BJU doesn't necessarily hold up to Biblical scrutiny.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#46
I grew up in this environment so i know dozens of PCC grads. I attended BJU and found similar problems. My little sister is a BJU grad and now an agnostic. There are a lot of people who do just fine after going to those colleges, but those are the ones that have either had no reason question what they are taught or have simply come to the same conclusions.

The problem is that most people are sheep and don't question what they are told until it bites them in the butt. Honestly, that is probably a much happier existence. My sisters and brother and I were raised by intelligent members of an Independent Baptist church and taught us to be free thinkers, to challenge what we are told according to scripture. The truth is that legalism in places like PCC and BJU doesn't necessarily hold up to Biblical scrutiny.
Ok now I see. I've heard these same complaints for longer than you have been alive. These schools have rules to govern the conduct of the students. Many of the students have never experienced rules governing their conduct before they arrived at the school. They are perhaps a little overly strict but you must realize that they are dealing with a large number of people from widely divergent backgrounds. The military has very strict rules of conduct that many find objectionable but it cultivates good personal discipline.

I think it wise to discern the difference between rules to govern conduct at school and true legalism from a biblical doctrine perspective. I do not know of anyone at these schools claiming that you would lose your salvation if you violated a rule of conduct. You might get shipped if you lied or stole and were unrepentant but you would still be seen as a saved person. I'd have to check but I'm not familiar with either teaching the legalistic doctrine of loss of salvation if one fails to keep all the law.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#47
Christian Colleges have not cornered the market in distorting God's Word. Almost every person I've talked to that took classes on the Bible as an extra, walked away confused about the Bible. The most blatantly obvious, the young man told me his professor began like this, "Now for any of you who know me, I am a preacher at so and so church just up the way. Pay no attention to that, because I can't tell my flock the truth I'm gonna tell you all here in this class, so.."
It's a breakdown in society, in schools at every level, and in the churches. It's called the world. It's why Jesus said come out of her people!!!!! before it's too late.

That's a mighty big claim to make without any evidence.
No evidence? Go pester somebody else
No evidence to refute your evidence. That's evident. LOL:p
 
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K

Karraster

Guest
#48
well, meet me. :) i earned my bachelors degree at a christian liberal arts university and i had for the most part, outstanding professors who usually left me with somewhat of an academic, but far strengthened faith. but i really believe that it largely was because the professors were fervent men and women of God. but i also don't doubt that not all christian colleges are providing the same educational experience. personally, i think it has a lot to do with these two things:

1) not all christian colleges require their staff/profs be christians (which i find more than outrageous)
2) immature christians seem to be most attracted to the legalism lie
3) kids who have been living with rules made for them are now trying to sort out the world and create order for themselves. in my experience, people in chaos seem to be extremely attracted to legalism and other meaningless trinkets that give a false sense of achievement and validation. i would say most college kids fit into that "risk group".

ironically, right after i graduated from h.s. i was part of a bible study based upon the book "the search for significance" by robert mcgee. i wish it was standard curriculum for every h.s. and college student, as it was one of the handful of books that had a tremendous impact upon me.

i don't know many issues where we are in such conflict with the world as we are with girls and their value.[/QUOTE]

Hi, your last sentence illustrates very well what I was trying to convey, though you probably didn't mean it to agree with me. The Messiah in scripture valued women. With each generation the trend is to distort the truth of the Bible, to tweak it's meaning to conform to modern day notions in whatever century it is. God does not change, men/women do.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#49
Ok now I see. I've heard these same complaints for longer than you have been alive. These schools have rules to govern the conduct of the students. Many of the students have never experienced rules governing their conduct before they arrived at the school. They are perhaps a little overly strict but you must realize that they are dealing with a large number of people from widely divergent backgrounds. The military has very strict rules of conduct that many find objectionable but it cultivates good personal discipline.

I think it wise to discern the difference between rules to govern conduct at school and true legalism from a biblical doctrine perspective. I do not know of anyone at these schools claiming that you would lose your salvation if you violated a rule of conduct. You might get shipped if you lied or stole and were unrepentant but you would still be seen as a saved person. I'd have to check but I'm not familiar with either teaching the legalistic doctrine of loss of salvation if one fails to keep all the law.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Roger,
I can see where misty is coming from. I also grew up in a Baptist church and attended their School until the 8th grade. The church and school was very legalistic as far dress codes, hair styles, make up, watching TV, going to movies, music, etc. TO enforce the laws/rules, they had a demerit system in school and even a quasi demerit system for church members and their families. Like Misty said, this church also promoted PCC, BJU, Chattanooga Christian College and a host of other like colleges and ministries.

The issue is not with the rules, but with enforcement and power and eventually Religious Ritual Abuse, such legalistic systems create. Many colleges, churches and k-12 schools created by these people tend to dehumanize women and enforce the teaching sof Paul on women keeping quiet, etc. By changing the outside appearance they are attempting to change the inside and you can never do that. Likewise by sheltering kids from the real world, you take away any ability for those kids to discern things on their own or let the Holy ghost work through them at that level.

I remember my parents joining that hell house called a church back in 1975 and away went the TV, my blue jeans, any secular magazines, books, etc, including things like Highlights and Heaven forbid any Disney related was in the house! Dad stopped using the belt and he bought a 2" in diameter dowel rod and I was punshied with the Rod of correction!

I never got to watch TV again until 1981 and I was no better for it. The education system was suppossed to be far better than those dreaded "public schools", yet I could not read at the 8th grade level, do math at the 6th grade level or write at the 6th grade level. I had no idea abut basic chemistry, the physical sciences or contemporary events. I had no idea about modern literature, but I could smoke you on anything related to the Bible or Biblical rules!

The first year I attended public school I was flunked back to 7th grade and almost back to 6th...to be clear, I had attended a Baptist Christian School, whose teachers gradiuated from plaes like pCC, BJU and other Christian COlleges and we used the famous Becka curriculum and the public school pulled me back, because I could not master the basics of 8th grade reading, writing or mathematics.... Yeah so much for the lie that your kid will be a great scholar.

The only kids that got scholarships were to places like PCC and BJU...They would go and by the summer of their sophmore year they were pregnant, drunks, strung out on drugs or dead...yeah I said DEAD! Dead by suicide because their world view was so limited to the legalism of Baptist men running amok they had zero clue about real life.

We left because my parents began to see through the whole LIE. My mom started a ministry for women that were physically, sexually and emotionally abused from churches like this one.

It stunned her and my Dad to the lengths these men would go , including elders , Pastors and deacons to cover up their sinful lives. Wife swapping in the name of Jesus...physical abuse because a women spoke during church....her husband was told by church leadership "to take care of the rebellion" of his wife with the rod of correction, so the guy beat his wife with the dowel rod of correction. The women nearly died and then church leadership cowered and covered their butts when the law got involved...the sick thing is the guy who did this awful thing, said he did it in a fit of anger, he could not bring himself to tattle tale on the leadership. 2 years later the guy left the church and was found living in a million dollar house, divorced and living in sin with another woman, etc...It was discovered the church paid him off...

The Baptists like to point fingers at everyone but themselves, and have some very warped people, who have warped theology, which produces warped interpretations. These fools make the charismatics/Pentecostals appear normal.

This is not the exception its the rule in several baptist churches....its the elephant in the room, they refuse to talk about!
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#50
well, meet me. :) i earned my bachelors degree at a christian liberal arts university and i had for the most part, outstanding professors who usually left me with somewhat of an academic, but far strengthened faith. but i really believe that it largely was because the professors were fervent men and women of God. but i also don't doubt that not all christian colleges are providing the same educational experience. personally, i think it has a lot to do with these two things:

1) not all christian colleges require their staff/profs be christians (which i find more than outrageous)
2) immature christians seem to be most attracted to the legalism lie
3) kids who have been living with rules made for them are now trying to sort out the world and create order for themselves. in my experience, people in chaos seem to be extremely attracted to legalism and other meaningless trinkets that give a false sense of achievement and validation. i would say most college kids fit into that "risk group".

ironically, right after i graduated from h.s. i was part of a bible study based upon the book "the search for significance" by robert mcgee. i wish it was standard curriculum for every h.s. and college student, as it was one of the handful of books that had a tremendous impact upon me.

i don't know many issues where we are in such conflict with the world as we are with girls and their value.[/QUOTE]

Hi, your last sentence illustrates very well what I was trying to convey, though you probably didn't mean it to agree with me. The Messiah in scripture valued women. With each generation the trend is to distort the truth of the Bible, to tweak it's meaning to conform to modern day notions in whatever century it is. God does not change, men/women do.
" 2) immature christians seem to be most attracted to the legalism lie"

Sorry I am calling you out oin this one, this is simply silly. I can assure the women and men my parents ministered to were not immature Christians. They ministered to former pastors, missionaries, deacons, elders, teachers, etc.

Most of the ones I knew that said legalism is a lie, were the same ones that knew it was going on, but did not want to rock the boat.

Sorry, sister, but really maybe you should look around.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,952
113
#51
What a sad tale of a woman losing her self worth in college. But really, this goes on everywhere in the fundamentalist church. Legalism is the very thing Jesus condemned the Pharisees for, yet today, people continue on this path to destruction, thinking they are serving God and upholding the Bible, because of a few disputed verses taken out of context.

I have always fought against the horror of women being told they are less than men in the Christian church. Women can be called and used of God in great ways, both married and single women. (Or the side step that "women are equal but have different "roles.")

I think that the verses that Paul esp. uses really need to be read in context with all his writings. Are they written to a specific church to address a specific problem? And how are they consistent with Paul's other words? In other words, if male and female are all one in Christ (Gal. 3:28), then how can you differentiate out women and give them a different set of rules and a different way to act in church, and forbid them places of authority if God calls them.

I was very blessed to be in a Canadian Southern Baptist Seminary where women were appreciated for their gifts and callings, and allowed to speak and preach in front of men, and encouraged to serve God at home and on the mission field. I was always treated with utmost respect, and was allowed to explore issues such as women being pastors, or how Christians need to be involved with the environmental movement. (Not because the earth is sacred, but because God created the earth for us to take care of!)

Here is an interesting "Bible study" on 1 Cor. 14:34-35, with some good scholarly research and excellent references. The author proposes various ways to read the above verses, and how to prevent legalism in churches!

Women “Should Remain Silent” - A Study of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 | Grace Communion International
 
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Tintin

Guest
#52
Very usual. In most of the churches I've attended, men seem to be the ones that aren't catered to enough. Maybe it's an Aussie dilemma.
 

Misty77

Senior Member
Aug 30, 2013
1,746
45
0
#55
Very usual. In most of the churches I've attended, men seem to be the ones that aren't catered to enough. Maybe it's an Aussie dilemma.
This patriarchal movement is a knee-jerk reaction to the feminist movement. Instead of validating men and women as image bearers of God, they try to put women "in their place" as I heard so many times growing up. It's antifeminism, equally wrong.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,173
113
#56
Misty77

I'd just like to say look at how Jesus treated women - He actually spoke to the woman at the well in Samaria and as a result of doing something a regular Jew would not do - the woman went back to her village and brought the whole town out to listen and see Jesus the Messiah.

When visiting Lazarus, Martha and Mary - Jesus told Martha when she complained about her sister not helping her in the kitchen that Mary had chosen the good thing to listen about Godly things and not be busy with the cares of life.

When the woman caught in adultery was brought before Jesus for his condemnation - Jesus bent over and started writing the wrongs committed by all those men who had brought her to be stoned and after all the men left (in shame I might add), Jesus asked the woman where her accusers were and she said they were not there and Jesus then said to her neither do I condemn you - go and sin no more.

Jesus thought all of these women were worth something and that was back in his day when women were treated worse than we are today. So I say shame on those teachers at that college to make you feel worthless. God/Jesus and Holy Spirit all think that we woman are worth Jesus death on the cross and that is ultimate worth shown to us by Jesus.

Legalism is very damaging I know it well as it kept me feeling lost for 56 years - I'm 59 now and it's sad to remember feeling lost all those years because I never felt good enough and I tried so hard to keep all the rules. Because of the way I was taught (not by my parents they were both dead by the time I was 12) but taught by good Christian people that if I did this or that I would go to hell. That message got through and because of it I was a rotating door Christian in and out of church for years.

The last time I came back to church (at 56) - I was talking to God and I said - I'm not good enough and I'll never be good enough and He answered back to me - you know you are right - You will never be good enough but Darlene that is why I sent my Son Jesus to die for you because when you give your heart to me and accept My Son's sacrifice for your life I no longer see the wrongs that you have committed but I see My Son's perfect life that covers yours. I have to tell you that I balled like a baby and was so thankful to God that He Himself explained salvation to me. I have been back in church ever since - not because I have to but because I want to learn and continue to grow in knowledge of my Lord and Savior Jesus. God thought I was worth something since He took the time to explain salvation to me Himself.

God also will use anyone or anything to further His cause... after all a donkey talked to Balaam and asked him why he was beating him when he had served him well for years and God opened Balaam's eyes to see an angel in the path with a sword. The donkey had saved his life.

Jesus said that the rocks would cry out if the people were not praising him as he rode into Jerusalem on the donkey. So don't think for a minute that God won't use women to further His cause. Jesus raised Dorcas from death because she was serving her community making clothing. Your teachers were wrong. Sorry so windy I just don't like it when people hurt others self worth. Keep serving the Lord we will have to pray for the false teacher. Love in Christ.
 

just_monicat

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2014
1,284
17
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#57
So you recommend a secular institution of socialism like Yale or Harvard? Better yet send them to a state college to learn how to drink and fornicate.
sorry sir, i don't think that requires a secondary education. they appear to know quite a bit about that. and they're dying to learn more, based upon my observations of the jr. high girls group i volunteer for. i guess our media and television shows are eager to fill that void.

it's heart breaking.
 

just_monicat

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2014
1,284
17
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#58
" 2) immature christians seem to be most attracted to the legalism lie"

Sorry I am calling you out oin this one, this is simply silly. I can assure the women and men my parents ministered to were not immature Christians. They ministered to former pastors, missionaries, deacons, elders, teachers, etc.

Most of the ones I knew that said legalism is a lie, were the same ones that knew it was going on, but did not want to rock the boat.

Sorry, sister, but really maybe you should look around.
i'm not sure what i should looking around for, but i do appreciate your comment. i certainly did not intend to offend you or anyone, and apologize if i have. like you, i have both strong feelings and the very personal stories to back up my comments. perhaps i can clarify below.

in no way do i mean to infer in anyway that any person who is drawn into legalism is somehow personally immature or inferior in any way. in fact, using the term "immature christian" is akin to saying a christian new in their faith. it is still my observation that those new or undeveloped in their faith are also quite possibly more susceptible to the "group thinking" you described, and often cannot recognize a leader's instruction as legalistic because they lack the information to ascertain the difference between man-made law and God's law. i

by the definition i offered you, we all take a turn sharing the title of "immature christian" and the bible tells us (or at least infers) that some of us may never shed that title.

also, to clarify, what i simply said is that in my opinion, immature christians, i.e. "new christians" are most vulnerable to what i refer to as the "lie of legalism", and i stand by that. what i did not say is that all christians who struggle with legalism are immature christians.

thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify that. :)
 
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just_monicat

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2014
1,284
17
0
#59
i don't know many issues where we are in such conflict with the world as we are with girls and their value.[/QUOTE]

Hi, your last sentence illustrates very well what I was trying to convey, though you probably didn't mean it to agree with me. The Messiah in scripture valued women. With each generation the trend is to distort the truth of the Bible, to tweak it's meaning to conform to modern day notions in whatever century it is. God does not change, men/women do.
now i'm confused. maybe we are on the same page, because what i meant was:

the bible very powerfully and plainly tells us the worth of us, as women (and men), that we were created for wonderful purpose, with unique gifts and talents, greatly loved and created for high plans. the bible talks of God's great love for each of us, and the abundant life His Son died and rose for each us to have.
my point is that the world tells girls they must look, behave and act a certain way, and the messages are mixed and highly negative. God wants so much more for us, and we have only to look in the bible to discover that. :)
 
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#60
Things were better when everyone used the King James Bible--before modern translations existed.
Actually, I think it's the Douay-Rheims version of the Bible that'd be older than King James.