I'm sorry nwl, but I'm unable to post the follwing to your response.

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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,723
358
83
#21
Fair enough, wisdom is personified and by wisdom and understanding, everything was created:

Prov 3:
19The LORD founded the earth by wisdom
and established the heavens by understanding.

But Jesus grew in wisdom:

Luke 2:52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

So Jesus is much created just like you are created but He is also un created; something that is hard to understand. When we say created, we mean all created things (more precisely, visible things or material things). In this case, Jesus was created some 2000 years ago.

Q. Are a created being? when were you created?

But when we talk of un-created things (mainly the spirit), it has been forever with God as part of God. In this manner, Jesus is un created and also we were together with God as part of Him.

@Waggles; Wisdom rejoiced in the sons of men before the foundation of the world. Whatever you are quoting is a misinterpretation.

Job 32:
7I thought that age should speak,
and many years should teach wisdom.

8But there is a spiritb in a man,
the breath of the Almighty,
that gives him understanding.


1.The breath of God which is in a man is never created, it is the wisdom that created the universe within man.

2. Wisdom and understanding do not hold a hammer and hit the anvil, they only reside in a mind and the results of their action are thoughts. So the whole universe is a thought for it was founded by wisdom. The mind and its thought process process are given to sons of men.
You made this "asinine" statement noose. "So Jesus is much created just like you are created but He is also un created; something that is hard to understand. When we say created, we mean all created things (more precisely, visible things or material things). In this case, Jesus was created some 2000 years ago."

Who's the "we" in your statement noose? And why are you trying so hard to say things that are contradictory to what the Bible says and teaches? How is Jesus created and uncreated at the same time?

You must be a jw from the way you are explaining things. You said, "When we say created, we mean all created things (more PRECISELY, VISIBLE THINGS OR MATERAL THINGS). Really! Here is what Colossians 1:16 clearly teaches without one shred of ambiguity. "For by Him/Jesus Christ all things were created, in the heavens and on earth, (Now watch this noose) VISIBILE AND INVISBLE, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities---ALL THINGS have been created by Him and for Him."

Now, if one reads the jw bible, the "new world translation" why did they add the word "other" in the verse noose? "because by means of Him all "OTHER" things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things "VISIBLE" AND THINGS INVISIBLE."

So, by all means please explain what these "OTHER" things are that are not included that are visible and invisible? Like waggles said, what other world or planet are you from, Pluto? :eek:
And PS: You still did not address the other issues I brought up in my opening post, why?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#22
You made this "asinine" statement noose. "So Jesus is much created just like you are created but He is also un created; something that is hard to understand. When we say created, we mean all created things (more precisely, visible things or material things). In this case, Jesus was created some 2000 years ago."

Who's the "we" in your statement noose? And why are you trying so hard to say things that are contradictory to what the Bible says and teaches? How is Jesus created and uncreated at the same time?

You must be a jw from the way you are explaining things. You said, "When we say created, we mean all created things (more PRECISELY, VISIBLE THINGS OR MATERAL THINGS). Really! Here is what Colossians 1:16 clearly teaches without one shred of ambiguity. "For by Him/Jesus Christ all things were created, in the heavens and on earth, (Now watch this noose) VISIBILE AND INVISBLE, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities---ALL THINGS have been created by Him and for Him."

Now, if one reads the jw bible, the "new world translation" why did they add the word "other" in the verse noose? "because by means of Him all "OTHER" things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things "VISIBLE" AND THINGS INVISIBLE."

So, by all means please explain what these "OTHER" things are that are not included that are visible and invisible? Like waggles said, what other world or planet are you from, Pluto? :eek:
And PS: You still did not address the other issues I brought up in my opening post, why?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I'm not a JW.
I think i have addressed your queries except the angel of the Lord in the OT. I think the angel of the Lord sometimes referred to the Lord Himself.He took on the form of a man and met Abraham.

Simple question though: When were you (Bluto) created?
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,723
358
83
#23
I'm not a JW.
I think i have addressed your queries except the angel of the Lord in the OT. I think the angel of the Lord sometimes referred to the Lord Himself.He took on the form of a man and met Abraham.

Simple question though: When were you (Bluto) created?
First of all, whether your a jw or not you still made a statement that is not true unless you can explain how Jesus is created and uncreated? That was the point of my post. Secondly, I was not created and neither were you or anybody else for that matter.

I think C.S Lewis explains it very nicely. "
We don’t use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English, but everyone still knows what they mean. To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers, and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set—or he may make something more like himself than a wireless set: say, a statue. If he is a clever enough carver he may make a statue which is very like a man indeed. But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one. It cannot breathe or think. It is not alive.

Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God, just as what man creates is not man."

And according to John 3:16 Jesus was begotten, not made or created. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His "only" begotten Son." So, in what respect is Jesus Christ the one and only begotten Son of God when the Jews themselves claim they are the sons of God as well?

Moreover, Jesus Christ has two natures, one on His mothers side which would be human and one on His Fathers side which would be deity. You can prove me wrong by giving me an example of a son that DOES NOT share the same nature as its father. So again, quit dancing around about insisting that Jesus was created, the Bible teaches He was not because He is eternal. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#24
First of all, whether your a jw or not you still made a statement that is not true unless you can explain how Jesus is created and uncreated? That was the point of my post. Secondly, I was not created and neither were you or anybody else for that matter.

I think C.S Lewis explains it very nicely. "
We don’t use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English, but everyone still knows what they mean. To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers, and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set—or he may make something more like himself than a wireless set: say, a statue. If he is a clever enough carver he may make a statue which is very like a man indeed. But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one. It cannot breathe or think. It is not alive.

Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God, just as what man creates is not man."

And according to John 3:16 Jesus was begotten, not made or created. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His "only" begotten Son." So, in what respect is Jesus Christ the one and only begotten Son of God when the Jews themselves claim they are the sons of God as well?

Moreover, Jesus Christ has two natures, one on His mothers side which would be human and one on His Fathers side which would be deity. You can prove me wrong by giving me an example of a son that DOES NOT share the same nature as its father. So again, quit dancing around about insisting that Jesus was created, the Bible teaches He was not because He is eternal. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You need to seriously review your theology, the idea that we are not created beings is way off.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

Ephesians 4:24
and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Even David said, "create in me a new heart"

If our salvation is regarded as being new creatures, then there must be an old creature; no doubt, we are created beings.

So you are wrong about yourself, but you think you are right about Jesus?!
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,255
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South
adelaiderevival.com
#25
our spirit has been with God from before the beginning?
You continue to have the strangest of doctrines - extremely unscriptural.
your non-Biblical doctrines are the glasses that you read scripture with.
rather than reading scripture for itself and learning from scripture you seek out verses to support your strange doctrines;
and end up quoting scriptures that have nothing to do with what you are promoting.
Job 32: 8 has nothing whatsoever to do with our spirit pre-existing before birth.

7 I [Elihu] said, ‘Let days speak, and many years teach wisdom.’
8 But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.
9 It is not the old who are wise, nor the aged who understand what is right.
10 Therefore I say, ‘Listen to me; let me also declare my opinion.’
Job 32: (ESV)
here Elihu is challenging the natural wisdom of the aged older men 'because they had found no answer, and yet had
condemned Job.'
Elihu is claiming that he has understanding of the issues concerning Job through the spirit of God who gives wisdom.
And as you would know even today in a Pentecostal church the gifts of a wisdom and knowledge are still available.
This is not about pre-existence of ourselves.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,255
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
#26
Job 32:
8But there is a spiritb in a man,
the breath of the Almighty,
that gives him understanding.
Again I must ask you what Bible version are you using?

6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid,
and durst not shew you mine opinion.
7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
10 Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion.
Job 32: (KJV)
Nothing here about our spirits pre-existing
and why would such a teaching exist here?? in contradiction to the scriptures that consistently teach us that a human baby
receives a spirit from God when they are born (the breath of life) and a baby becomes a living soul.
God does indeed know of us before we were born, even before the creation of this world, but that is God transcending time
as we experience it.
This foreknowledge is not due to us pre-existing a spirits with God.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,255
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
#28
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!
Ephesians 4:24
and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Take your glasses off so that you may read scripture in truth and allow scripture to teach you …
Neither of these verses are about creation of something from nothing - they are about a refashioning or making better something
that was inferior ...
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
creature > G2937 > a thing formed
yes we become a new person in Christ Jesus with a new purpose in life - we are refashioned or remade not created again.

Ephesians 4:24 has nothing to do with being created again but refers to the Pentecostal experience of being born from above
by the baptism of the Holy Spirit (and confirms my notes in respect to 2Corinthians 5:17)
23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Ephesians 4: (ESV)
 
Dec 9, 2011
11,821
1,135
113
#30
I keep getting a message that I cannot post 10000 characters or whatever?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IDK Usually It's a law minded person that wants to post many Many scriptures to boost their point.
We have a new format here on Christian chat.I notice that only the beginning of a post Is shown when replying.
I guess I don't want to see scripture after scripture to make a point It really just let me know that this person has Incorrect doctrine and they are trying Super hard to convince me to accept bad doctrine.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,247
2,405
113
#31
That would be the following person: https://christianchat.com/members/nwl.133144/#recent-content
He is a jw and he seems to have disappeared. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The thing with the 10,000 words has always been CC policy. Usually, if you quote someone's long post, those are words. You can either ditch the "reply with quote" and just put your own words up. The other way to deal with it is to divide what you have written in half. Even with the time rules for reposting, usually you can get your posts back to back. Unless it is a really fast moving thread, I guess!

Glad the JW is gone. Now I won't have to report them myself. I wonder if they get brownie points for engaging people on a Christian site?
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,723
358
83
#32
Thanks angela, I just learned something. And continue to fight the good fight sister. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluo
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#33
Take your glasses off so that you may read scripture in truth and allow scripture to teach you …
Neither of these verses are about creation of something from nothing - they are about a refashioning or making better something
that was inferior ...
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
creature > G2937 > a thing formed
yes we become a new person in Christ Jesus with a new purpose in life - we are refashioned or remade not created again.

Ephesians 4:24 has nothing to do with being created again but refers to the Pentecostal experience of being born from above
by the baptism of the Holy Spirit (and confirms my notes in respect to 2Corinthians 5:17)
23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Ephesians 4: (ESV)
1. Creation is never something from nothing. You and your whole crew (Church) must be wrong

2. Those verses are talking about us being new creatures; doesn't matter, you can say refashioning, renewal, re-branding but my point remains; if we are new creatures in Christ, then there must have been old creatures also, which means we are created beings. Someone just said we are not created beings.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#34
Again I must ask you what Bible version are you using?

6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid,
and durst not shew you mine opinion.
7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
10 Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion.
Job 32: (KJV)
Nothing here about our spirits pre-existing
and why would such a teaching exist here?? in contradiction to the scriptures that consistently teach us that a human baby
receives a spirit from God when they are born (the breath of life) and a baby becomes a living soul.
God does indeed know of us before we were born, even before the creation of this world, but that is God transcending time
as we experience it.
This foreknowledge is not due to us pre-existing a spirits with God.
Gen 2: 7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

That breath of God that was put in the man is definitely uncreated and it is God Himself.

It is not about the bible version but understanding:
Job 32:8
New International Version
But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding.

New Living Translation
But there is a spirit within people, the breath of the Almighty within them, that makes them intelligent.

English Standard Version
But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.

Berean Study Bible
But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.

New American Standard Bible
"But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.

King James Bible
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Christian Standard Bible
But it is the spirit in a person--the breath from the Almighty--that gives anyone understanding.

Contemporary English Version
now I truly realize wisdom comes from God.

Good News Translation
But it is the spirit of Almighty God that comes to us and gives us wisdom.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But it is a spirit in man and the breath of the Almighty that give him understanding.

International Standard Version
However, a spirit exists in mankind, and the Almighty's breath gives him insight.

NET Bible
But it is a spirit in people, the breath of the Almighty, that makes them understand.

New Heart English Bible
But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of Shaddai gives them understanding.

Whatever your pick, you should come to the realization that the breath of God is a man's spirit.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#35
You continue to have the strangest of doctrines - extremely unscriptural.
your non-Biblical doctrines are the glasses that you read scripture with.
rather than reading scripture for itself and learning from scripture you seek out verses to support your strange doctrines;
and end up quoting scriptures that have nothing to do with what you are promoting.
Job 32: 8 has nothing whatsoever to do with our spirit pre-existing before birth.

7 I [Elihu] said, ‘Let days speak, and many years teach wisdom.’
8 But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.
9 It is not the old who are wise, nor the aged who understand what is right.
10 Therefore I say, ‘Listen to me; let me also declare my opinion.’
Job 32: (ESV)
here Elihu is challenging the natural wisdom of the aged older men 'because they had found no answer, and yet had
condemned Job.'
Elihu is claiming that he has understanding of the issues concerning Job through the spirit of God who gives wisdom.
And as you would know even today in a Pentecostal church the gifts of a wisdom and knowledge are still available.
This is not about pre-existence of ourselves.
Wrong again, no matter how many bible versions you sermon.

Job 27: 3as long as my breath is still within me and the breath of God remains in my nostrils,

The breath of God in us is uncreated, it has been with God for eternity past.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,255
113
South
adelaiderevival.com
#36
Whatever your pick, you should come to the realization that the breath of God is a man's spirit.
The breath of God in us is uncreated, it has been with God for eternity past.
God gives his Spirit to all of creation so that this physical universe can continue to exist.
Animals also have the Spirit of God in them and no doubt all flora.
But nothing you have presented teaches of pre-existence.
Those of us who embrace the full gospel and enjoy the Pentecostal baptism of the Holy Spirit are born from above but we still
dwell in our current bodies.
Our new lives restart by the power of the gospel and the Holy Spirit to burn up the chaff of sin and refashion us more and more
Christ-like.
We do not connect or re-connect to some ancient previous state that pre-existed , or whatever, with God.
I am merely 64 years old and have never existed before I was conceived.
But God knew that I would be born when I was born and God also knew that I would come to believe the gospel and also
to receive his Holy Spirit to become a true Pentecostal Christian.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#38
God gives his Spirit to all of creation so that this physical universe can continue to exist.
Animals also have the Spirit of God in them and no doubt all flora.
But nothing you have presented teaches of pre-existence.
Those of us who embrace the full gospel and enjoy the Pentecostal baptism of the Holy Spirit are born from above but we still
dwell in our current bodies.
Our new lives restart by the power of the gospel and the Holy Spirit to burn up the chaff of sin and refashion us more and more
Christ-like.
We do not connect or re-connect to some ancient previous state that pre-existed , or whatever, with God.
I am merely 64 years old and have never existed before I was conceived.
But God knew that I would be born when I was born and God also knew that I would come to believe the gospel and also
to receive his Holy Spirit to become a true Pentecostal Christian.
Again, you and your whole crew (Church) are wrong.

It is the spirit of God that sustains everything (every creature), right. That part of everything (the spirit of God), that sustains everything, preexisted the beginning and it is from this part that everything came to exist; that's why i said creation is never something from nothing.

Job 38:
2“Who is this who obscures My counsel
by words without knowledge?
3Now brace yourselfa like a man;
I will question you, and you shall inform Me!
4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its foundations laid,
or who set its core in place—
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 27: 3 as long as my breath is still within me and the breath of God remains in my nostrils,

The breath of God in us is un-created.