In context: Romans 4:4-5

[SeaBass]

The reason for the word "work" is explained in the above, and I repeat:

You misunderstand what Jesus is saying here, just as they did.


Nope.

It reflects the meaning of "belief" as used throughout the NT, including by Jesus.


So the Jews were condemned for not "repenting, confessing, and being baptized"?

That's not what Jesus said:

"if you do not believe I am he (the one I claim to be), you will die in your sin." (Jn 8:24)

Jesus said that condemnation to eternal death is the result of only one thing: unbelief.
Jesus did not say it was the result of not repenting, confessing or being baptized.

That is something you made up, and is not the way "belief" is used throughout the NT.

Because that answer includes nothing about the only thing necessary: belief.


Wrong.

That is precisely the way he answered it. . .and repeated it in Jn 8:24.

You do not understand his plain words and meaning in Jn 6:29, 8:24. And so I repeat again

you misunderstand what Jesus is saying here, just as they did.

This "internal works" versus "external works" is something you pulled out of thin air to try and find a way to get around obedient works being necessary to being saved.

Labour and work in the context have to do with physical work. Salvation is not by some mental thought or emotional feelings neither of which are labours - works Jesus, James or Paul was speaking about.

James said faith without works is dead. The works James speaks about here is NOT some "internal" works of thoughts or emotion but physical works, as in Abraham going and offering his son Isaac not simply "internally" just thought about offering Isaac but the actual physical work.

Mark 2:1-5, verse 5 "When Jesus saw their faith" What is called "faith" in this context is the physical work the men did in carrying the sick man, removing the roof and lowering the sick man down to Christ not some "internal" works of thoughts or emotions.

Phil 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure"

The works here refer to things DONE not things simply thought about.

 

[SeaBass]

So the fact remains that Paul was not speaking of obedient works in Rom 4:4 for obedient works cannot make one's reward of debt and not of grace.

 

[homwardbound]

Because Christ saves us through faith based on His finished work of redemption and not based on the merits of our works. You are trusting in works. You may feel strongly about your position but so do Roman Catholics and Mormons and they trust in works for salvation as well. Does it not really matter? Will we ALL be saved anyway, regardless of whether we trust in Christ alone for salvation or works?

I really think either way our belief needs to be real, and Yehweh knows what everyone's intent or purpose is and Yeshua said in word. our works better be better than that of the Pharisees

So motive as to what I do as is bottom line and better note ever be to fleece the flock

Matthew 23 [Full Chapter]
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. ...

Matthew 5:20

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.




Matthew 9:34
But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:2
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Matthew 12:14
Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

Matthew 12:24
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:38
Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

 

[homwardbound]

Right there you just demonstrated my point. You say that you trust in Christ and not works, yet you have consistently listed works that must be accomplished before Christ can save you. Your trust is in your 4-5 step formula for salvation, which amounts to salvation by works.

Yet as you said it really doesn't matter, tanks for solving this problem in a nutshell at least to me

Originally Posted by Alligator

Why should I accept your position? You should realize that I feel that my view is correct just as strongly as you think yours is.



Because Christ saves us through faith based on His finished work of redemption and not based on the merits of our works. You are trusting in works. You may feel strongly about your position but so do Roman Catholics and Mormons and they trust in works for salvation as well. Does it not really matter? Will we ALL be saved anyway, regardless of whether we trust in Christ alone for salvation or works?

 

[homwardbound]

talking to you is like talking to a stump. You hear only what you want to hear that will bolster your man made theory.

You are a faith only guy right? That would be like me telling you that you don't trust Christ but trust in your faith to save you. See how asinine that would be?

Not our Faith, it is God-given and we walk as Yesua walked in the Faith of he finished work of Yeshua

 

[homwardbound]

you have trouble with comprehension. So I can go to heaven and not be justified ? LOL

The just live by Faith

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

 

[homwardbound]

Faith without works is dead

Yep, true, self works of self and these will be revealed all in due time and many flesh works done will bun up, and all the God works of Yeweh by Yeshua will never burn up, and last after all the wood, hay and stubble is burned up, then that person that suffered loss in things done here on earth of self, for I am sure I will have loss as well, me paying that at least we all truly believe and will be not thrown into everlasting Hell at Judgment day

So I pray the works of love that I do or have done are not me trying to get credit for it, or you or anyone else

 

[homwardbound]

Atwood, how about being considerate of others by not posting half the NT every time you make a point. Do you really think people read all that?

Thanks Alligator I do, and all others as well, providing I have the time, I am here to learn and put out what I have learned

 

[homwardbound]

no, that is not what I was talking about. Baptism is for the remission, washing away,of sins. You believe that this language is figurative you believe you were already forgiven at the point of faith.

Yet Peter Said
1 Peter 3:21

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[homwardbound]

Saved by grace> through faith .....which is dead without works
you must be born again to see the kingdom
you must be born of water and spirit to enter the kingdom...

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But who could possibly fight and win this battle except by believing that Jesus is truly the Son of God? [SUP]6-8 [/SUP]And we know he is, because God said so with a voice from heaven when Jesus was baptized, and again as he was facing death[SUP][a][/SUP]—yes, not only at his baptism but also as he faced death.* And the Holy Spirit, forever truthful, says it too. So we have these three witnesses: the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, the voice from heaven at Christ’s baptism, and the voice before he died.* And they all say the same thing: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.*

Yep dead without God's works through me, yep

 

[homwardbound]

And just how do you think we get into Christ, BAPTISM Gal. 3:26-27

Baptism from God the Father of Yeshua, in Spirit and truth, the free gift to us: so by belief you received the Holy Spirit of promise

For John was clear on the Baptism that brings life to the believer and it is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that led Christ (Yeshua) with fire that burns out ones dross. That started at Pentecost and I am not promoting one or anyone to speak in tongues as evidence

 

[newbirth]

Yet as you said it really doesn't matter, tanks for solving this problem in a nutshell at least to me

Originally Posted by Alligator

Why should I accept your position? You should realize that I feel that my view is correct just as strongly as you think yours is.



Because Christ saves us through faith based on His finished work of redemption and not based on the merits of our works. You are trusting in works. You may feel strongly about your position but so do Roman Catholics and Mormons and they trust in works for salvation as well. Does it not really matter? Will we ALL be saved anyway, regardless of whether we trust in Christ alone for salvation or works?

why do you keep telling people they trust in works for salvation?We were created unto good works...you were created unto no works...We believe that we were created to do something....You believe you were created to do nothing....Show me how you trust God by doing nothing and I will show you how I trust God by doing what he says.

 

[Alligator]

Thanks Alligator I do, and all others as well, providing I have the time, I am here to learn and put out what I have learned

i want to learn too, but I want to read it straight from the bible and not somebody's interpretation. And
once I read it, I don't need to see it again over and over.

 

[Alligator]

And just how do you think we get into Christ, BAPTISM Gal. 3:26-27

Baptism from God the Father of Yeshua, in Spirit and truth, the free gift to us: so by belief you received the Holy Spirit of promise

For John was clear on the Baptism that brings life to the believer and it is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that led Christ (Yeshua) with fire that burns out ones dross. That started at Pentecost and I am not promoting one or anyone to speak in tongues as evidence

the baptism that is in effect for us today is the baptism of the Great Commission, which is water baptism. Matt. 28:18-20. No one can speak in tongues today. That ended in the first century.
O

 

[Alligator]

Sins are not literally washed away, that is a metaphor. But I have not given the straw man explanation that you try to hang on me. The essential element in remission of sins is not baptism, but repentance (change of mind from nonbelief to belief) as Acts 10 tells us. You seem hung up on a rare verse, Acts 2:38 & to insist on an unnecessary interpretation, in violation of say 1000 passages that declare salvation comes by faith/belief with nothing added.

Passages on remission:

Matt. 26:28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.


Mark 1:4
John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.


Luke 1:77
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people
In the remission of their sins,


Luke 3:3
And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;


Luke 24:47
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.


Acts 2:38
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye and be [Spirit] baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ [not in water] unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[10:43 shows that the repentance is the essential element, repentance being a change of mind from disbelief to belief]


Acts 5:31
Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.


Acts 10:43
To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. -- no water baptism needed!]


Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, brethren, that through this man is proclaimed unto you remission of sins:


Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.


Heb. 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.


Heb. 10

14 For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, saith the Lord:
I will put my laws on their heart,
And upon their mind also will I write them;
then saith he,
17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Water baptism is a symbol of Christ's death, burial, & resurrection. In the expression "Spirit baptism," I would take baptism to be figurative, as being put into the Body of Christ (the Church) is a metaphor. There is no literal Body of Christ meant -- it is a figure for our unity as we are connected to Christ. We are not literally dipped by the Spirit into some fluid.

so, according to you we should just throw out Acts 2:38 because it doesn't count? An obscure verse?? Hardly.

 

[newbirth]

Yep dead without God's works through me, yep

what is the point of your comment?....as a response to the post....what exactly do you disagree with and why?

 

[Atwood]

so, according to you we should just throw out Acts 2:38 because it doesn't count? An obscure verse?? Hardly.

You have to take a rare verse in harmony with the rest of scripture. No scripture is of any private interpretation. This hermeneutical principle is called "The Analogy of the Faith." It all must be interpreted as harmonizing.

Acts 2:38 may not be interpreted as contrary to Acts 10:43

Acts 10:43
To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 may not be interpreted as contrary to the ton of scriptures which tell us that salvation is for believing & nothing else is mentioned as a requirement on man's part.

 

[Atwood]

the baptism that is in effect for us today is the baptism of the Great Commission, which is water baptism. Matt. 28:18-20. No one can speak in tongues today. That ended in the first century.
O

People speak in tongues all the time: English, Spanish, German, etc. The word "tongues" just means "languages." But I agree with the gist of what you say on this.

The special baptism of Christ is Spirit, not water.

11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:


33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit. 34 And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.


Acts 1:3
to whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God: 4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me: 5 for John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

That baptism began on Pentecost and is unique to our dispensation. That is the Baptism that happened the day Peter uttered Acts 2:38.

 

[Atwood]

i want to learn too, but I want to read it straight from the bible and not somebody's interpretation. And
once I read it, I don't need to see it again over and over.

Well then, what is the point of posting & interacting here? Why not just get out your Bible and mark all the passages on Salvation from Genesis - Revelation?

 

[mailmandan]

Did the Holy Ghost teach you baptism is only a bath?

It is for unbelievers. All they do is get wet.

If baptism is worthless as you say Paul would not have asked

I didn't say that baptism is worthless, but it is meaningless for unbelievers.

"Notice carefully Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?...(no)...then..."Unto what then were ye baptized?, (of John)" you see they believed and was baptised he expected them to receive the HS after baptism.(but they were not baptised in the name of Jesus Christ) He did not ask if they were baptised. He asked... Unto what then were ye baptized? It is understood when you believe you must be baptised.

No, they did not believe. And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." They still needed to believe. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Now that they believed, they were afterwards baptized. When you believe you must or will be baptized? I didn't read must or else, dipped or condemned.