In context: Romans 4:4-5

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "
him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.


So when one takes "
worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

I think it is much easier to explain if you read Romans 4:4-5 within the whole context of the text surrounding it rather than just looking at those two verses then jumping all over the Bible.

First in Romans 3 we read...

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Key words being...

Propitiation - Mercy Seat
Faith in his blood - Believing in the means of cleansing/purging which is via the blood (ie. 1Joh 1:7, Heb 9:14)

The text above then states...

"...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; o declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

Compare to...

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

1. The blood enjoins us into covenant with God.
2. The blood cleanses/purges the vessels of the ministry.
3. The purging is according to the law.
4. This cleansing of a sinner is conditional on walking in the light (1Joh 1:7).

Thus God is declared righteous (see Rom 3:26) in justifying those who believe in Jesus because the righteousness of God is declared through this means of forgiving past transgression.

While it is difficult to comprehend the wisdom behind this means of justifying sinners we do know that it works in bringing an individual from a state of rebellion to a state of obedience and thus the willingness of God to forgive sin cannot be perceived as a license to sin. It is interesting to note that this is something that those who adhere to Moral Government theology have picked up on and through that have gone on to philosophise an entire explanation which is not alluded to in the text (which is one reason why I don't agree with Moral Government).

In Hebrews we read...

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The New Covenant involves a transformed heart and mind which directly addresses the root of why people sin. Thus the cleansing that we receive in approaching God through the means designated is meant to be permanent and thus no more offering for sin is required. Our hearts are sprinkled from an evil conscience and we are washed clean.

We can see this evidenced in...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This all has to do with being quickened (made alive) together with Christ when our sins are forgiven. It is in "trusting" in the means that we submit ourselves to this mechanic. So we approach God in full assurance of faith with a true heart, or in other words, we open ourselves up to the working of God no longer resisting for our hearts are being truly honest.

I was wrong, God is right, thus I yield to that which is right then BANG the power of God effectually transforms me.

So to go on sinning after this takes place is to trample its purpose hence the warning in Hebrews...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

There is simply no sacrifice for ongoing rebellion. God does not forgive ongoing rebellion. The purpose of the blood is to purge rebellion and thus destroy it. To go on sinning is to deny this purpose and treat the blood of Christ as animal blood which could not purge sin.

Anyway I digress a little so as to put things in context. Back to Romans...

"Working not" has to do with "law keeping apart from faith."
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

One cannot be justified by God by the works of the law. Rather it is by faith. Faith in the means God has ordained which we then submit ourselves to (read again Rom 3:25-26). So there is no boasting...

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Jews and Gentiles are justified the same way, by faith. Faith deals with the root of sin (ie. the heart), whilst simply obeying rules and regulations does not. God does not justify people who have only dealt with the external, the internal must be cleansed.

The law is but a shadow of love. "Thou shalt not kill" is but a shadow of "love thy neighbour." Thus...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law is not voided or cancelled through faith, it is ESTABLISHED IN THE HEART (ie. the New Covenant, see Heb 10:16).

Now Paul goes into Romans 4 and speaks about Abraham...

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


God reckoned Abraham's FAITH as righteousness because the faith of Abraham deals with the root of unrighteousness. Abraham's heart was clean before God. Not because of "deeds of the flesh" or "works" but rather FAITH which works by love. Check this out...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The false gospel at work in the world has destroyed all this in the minds of those who have bought into it. These people see themselves as perpetual sinners and due to this the means of deliverance is via the work of Christ effecting a legal transaction whereby God declares them righteous while they are still manifestly wicked. Their doctrine has NOTHING to do with a once and for all cleansing of the heart.

The faith of Abraham which God reckoned as righteousness has an associated walk...

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

A transformed heart is reflected by transformed deeds (hence faith without works is dead).

Jesus spoke that Abraham did works...

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

In Hebrews is speaks of the "obedience" of the faith of Abraham...

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.


So what has happened in the church system? Well "not of works" has been redefined as "not of doing" when truthfully "not of works" simply means "not of works done apart from faith."

Faith is a work (see 1The 1:3) because faith is ACTIVE. Faith is the active dynamic of yielding to God. We trust God and therefore give ourselves over to His will. Thus we have faith in the energy of God by which we are made alive within.

All the false Christians receive a "notion" os salvation by trusting in a "perceived" legal transaction they call "Christ's Finished Work" when in reality their hearts remain filthy. In truth they have received a lie in their minds and in their hands and end up serving the image of the beast, which is simply the lusts of the flesh over obedience to God from the heart.
 
Last edited:
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
I think it is much easier to explain if you read Romans 4:4-5 within the whole context of the text surrounding it rather than just looking at those two verses then jumping all over the Bible.

First in Romans 3 we read...

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Key words being...

Propitiation - Mercy Seat
Faith in his blood - Believing in the means of cleansing/purging which is via the blood (ie. 1Joh 1:7, Heb 9:14)

The text above then states...

"...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; o declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

Compare to...

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

1. The blood enjoins us into covenant with God.
2. The blood cleanses/purges the vessels of the ministry.
3. The purging is according to the law.
4. This cleansing of a sinner is conditional on walking in the light (1Joh 1:7).

Thus God is declared righteous (see Rom 3:26) in justifying those who believe in Jesus because the righteousness of God is declared through this means of forgiving past transgression.

While it is difficult to comprehend the wisdom behind this means of justifying sinners we do know that it works in bringing an individual from a state of rebellion to a state of obedience and thus the willingness of God to forgive sin cannot be perceived as a license to sin. It is interesting to note that this is something that those who adhere to Moral Government theology have picked up on and through that have gone on to philosophise an entire explanation which is not alluded to in the text (which is one reason why I don't agree with Moral Government).

In Hebrews we read...

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The New Covenant involves a transformed heart and mind which directly addresses the root of why people sin. Thus the cleansing that we receive in approaching God through the means designated is meant to be permanent and thus no more offering for sin is required. Our hearts are sprinkled from an evil conscience and we are washed clean.

We can see this evidenced in...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This all has to do with being quickened (made alive) together with Christ when our sins are forgiven. It is in "trusting" in the means that we submit ourselves to this mechanic. So we approach God in full assurance of faith with a true heart, or in other words, we open ourselves up to the working of God no longer resisting for our hearts are being truly honest.

I was wrong, God is right, thus I yield to that which is right then BANG the power of God effectually transforms me.

So to go on sinning after this takes place is to trample its purpose hence the warning in Hebrews...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

There is simply no sacrifice for ongoing rebellion. God does not forgive ongoing rebellion. The purpose of the blood is to purge rebellion and thus destroy it. To go on sinning is to deny this purpose and treat the blood of Christ as animal blood which could not purge sin.

Anyway I digress a little so as to put things in context. Back to Romans...

"Working not" has to do with "law keeping apart from faith."
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

One cannot be justified by God by the works of the law. Rather it is by faith. Faith in the means God has ordained which we then submit ourselves to (read again Rom 3:25-26). So there is no boasting...

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Jews and Gentiles are justified the same way, by faith. Faith deals with the root of sin (ie. the heart), whilst simply obeying rules and regulations does not. God does not justify people who have only dealt with the external, the internal must be cleansed.

The law is but a shadow of love. "Thou shalt not kill" is but a shadow of "love thy neighbour." Thus...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law is not voided or cancelled through faith, it is ESTABLISHED IN THE HEART (ie. the New Covenant, see Heb 10:16).

Now Paul goes into Romans 4 and speaks about Abraham...

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


God reckoned Abraham's FAITH as righteousness because the faith of Abraham deals with the root of unrighteousness. Abraham's heart was clean before God. Not because of "deeds of the flesh" or "works" but rather FAITH which works by love. Check this out...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The false gospel at work in the world has destroyed all this in the minds of those who have bought into it. These people see themselves as perpetual sinners and due to this the means of deliverance is via the work of Christ effecting a legal transaction whereby God declares them righteous while they are still manifestly wicked. Their doctrine has NOTHING to do with a once and for all cleansing of the heart.

The faith of Abraham which God reckoned as righteousness has an associated walk...

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

A transformed heart is reflected by transformed deeds (hence faith without works is dead).

Jesus spoke that Abraham did works...

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

In Hebrews is speaks of the "obedience" of the faith of Abraham...

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.


So what has happened in the church system? Well "not of works" has been redefined as "not of doing" when truthfully "not of works" simply means "not of works done apart from faith."

Faith is a work (see 1The 1:3) because faith is ACTIVE. Faith is the active dynamic of yielding to God. We trust God and therefore give ourselves over to His will. Thus we have faith in the energy of God by which we are made alive within.

All the false Christians receive a "notion" os salvation by trusting in a "perceived" legal transaction they call "Christ's Finished Work" when in reality their hearts remain filthy. In truth they have received a lie in their minds and in their hands and end up serving the image of the beast, which is simply the lusts of the flesh over obedience to God from the heart.



Above you posted "Working not" has to do with "law keeping apart from faith." and "Faith is a work (see 1The 1:3) because faith is ACTIVE."

I agree. The OT law did not require faith, Gal 3:12, so the Jews would go about faithlessly trying to keep the law perfectly in order to merit salvation. So the "worketh not" has to do with works of merit and not obedience to God.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"

Therefore in Rom 4:5 Paul is CONTRASTING ("but" a contrasting word) works of merit (worketh not) to an obedient belief (faith is a work) as Abraham possessed. Abraham was not perfectly sinless so he was one that "worketh not", that is, Abraham did not do works of merit but instead had an obedient faith in God.

So since faith is a work then this working faith CANNOT be part of the "worketh not". That means those that claim "worketh not" includes ALL works, they then are eliminating the work of faith.

Jn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

If the faith only advocate claims obedience to God means one is trying to merit salvation then evidently from verses as Jn 14;15 (and all the other commands God gave men in the bible) must mean God is wanting salvation to be merited by the giving of commands.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
There is but 1 Kind of Good Works

The only kind of good works are activities which are in obedience to God's commands. All good works are obedient good works. If the Lord pronounces a man's works "good," then they are meritorious. All good works are meritorious.

Trying to make up 2 sets of good works is baloney any way you slice it.

The Word says:

By grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves,
not of works lest anyone should boast.

Now if you don't like that fact of scripture, just admit you don't agree with the Lord and know better.

We will be not deceived by you claiming, "Ah yes, salvation is not of works, but that means Geezoocho Works -- Dompoozle works do saved.


No kind of works save, period.

Salvation is by grace through faith.
And if you try another method, just go buy yourself some asbestos underwear.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
IN CONTEXT: Romans 4:4-5

Now, just forget the comments of deceivers; read the context of Rom 4:4-5 and believe God's word. Here 'tis:

"But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

27
Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.


31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

4
Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

6
Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,

5Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.

13
For not 6through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.

16
For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, 7A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.

18
Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also
it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

23
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him; 24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.


5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, . . . .
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
The only deception is made by those that try include ALL works in the phrase "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 when Paul was talking about works of merit and NOT obedient works.

Still, no one has shown obedient works makes one's reward of debt and not of grace per Rom 4:4.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
The only deception is made by those that try include ALL works in the phrase "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 when Paul was talking about works of merit and NOT obedient works.
Those two appellations are your own invention, and are not an improvement on Scripture.

Scripture presents
1) works to earn righteousness, and

2) works produced by saving faith.

Use the Biblical terms instead of your own worthless inventions which do not improve Scripture.
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
Those two appellations are your own invention, and are not an improvement on Scripture.

Scripture presents
1) works to earn righteousness, and

2) works produced by saving faith.

Use the Biblical terms instead of your own worthless inventions which do not improve Scripture.
......works produced..... and... saving faith........ biblical terms used to twist the meaning of scripture
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
......works produced..... and... saving faith........ biblical terms used to twist the meaning of scripture
So you think the Bible twists Scripture. . .

That explains a lot.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
In context: Romans 4:4-5; No Heretical Unbelief Needed on It

Here 'tis, the Prophet's Mouth. Believe & be saved; scoff & spend eternity in the Lake of Fire!

"But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified
freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and
the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

27
Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.


31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

4
Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.


6
Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom
God reckoneth righteousness apart from works,
7 saying,

5Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.

13
For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.

16
For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that
the promise may be sure to all the seed;
not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, 7A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.


18
Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21and being
fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22Wherefore also
it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

23
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him; 24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.


5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, . . . .

Note in vs 21:
fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

(as for example: Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

Let's sing'er, let'er rip!

He is able (echo)
To deliver thee
He is able (echo)
To deliver thee;
Tho by sin oppressed
Go to Him for rest,
Our God is able to deliver thee.

Tis the grandest them for a mortal tongue
Tis the grandest them that the world e'er sung;
Look to God in faith He will make you strong;
Our God is able to deliver thee.

He is able (echo)
To deliver thee
He is able (echo)
To deliver thee;
Tho by sin oppressed
Go to Him for rest,
Our God is able to deliver thee.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
Those two appellations are your own invention, and are not an improvement on Scripture.

Scripture presents
1) works to earn righteousness, and

2) works produced by saving faith.

Use the Biblical terms instead of your own worthless inventions which do not improve Scripture.
Per Rom 4:4 I am still waiting for someone to prove how obedient works in doing God's will make one's reward of debt and not of grace.

Gen 12:1-3 cf Heb 11:8 did Abraham's obedience to God mean Abraham was trying to merit his reward?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Per Rom 4:4 I am still waiting for someone to prove how obedient works in doing God's will make one's reward of debt and not of grace.

Gen 12:1-3 cf Heb 11:8 did Abraham's obedience to God mean Abraham was trying to merit his reward?
I don't recall anything about "trying."

One doesn't need to prove the obvious. Obedient works are meritorious works. Meritorious works are obedient works.

For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, not of works lest SeaBass should boast.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,493
224
63
A done deal, involved no works from us

Ephesians 2:1-4New International Version (NIV)[h=3]Made Alive in Christ[/h]2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
A done deal, involved no works from us

Ephesians 2:1-4New International Version (NIV)Made Alive in Christ

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Amen! Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Nothing there at all about saved by obedient works, which are good works that believers are saved FOR and not by. Paul has made it so clear that salvation is not of works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet there are certain people who are very determined to base salvation on their works "at least in part."
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
A done deal, involved no works from us

Ephesians 2:1-4New International Version (NIV)Made Alive in Christ

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
you read but do not understand... you used to live when you followed the ways of this world ......the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.... that means we must no longer follow the ways of the world...and be obedient to God
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
EPh 2:9 "not of works"

1) If "not of works" excludes obedient works in obeying the will of God, then that implies one can disobey God's commands thereby sinning/transgressing/doing unrighteousness and yet still be saved. If God's commands do not have to be obeyed, then one then does not need a bible to follow and guide him unto truth but can humanistically follow his own opinions.

2) If obedient works in obeying the will of God means one is trying to merit grace, then God evidently desires man to merit grace as indicated by the many, many, many conditional commands God has given throughout the bible.. Did God give all those commands just to ignored, disobeyed? No.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
you read but do not understand... you used to live when you followed the ways of this world ......the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.... that means we must no longer follow the ways of the world...and be obedient to God
I understand perfectly. Those who are born of God no longer follow the ways of the world and are obedient to God BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. Works of obedience are the fruit of saving faith, but are not the means of our salvation. Christ's finished work of redemption is the all sufficient means of our salvation. Let's not get the cart before the horse.

Nobody is implying that those who are born of God refuse to obey the commands of God, practice sin and not righteousness. That is an oxymoron. 1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Those who practice righteousness do so BECAUSE they are children of God and not in order to become children of God. This is where certain people put the cart before the horse and base salvation on works. Those who practice sin do so BECAUSE they are children of the devil and not in order to become children of the devil. Either we are saved by believing or else we are saved by working. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
that means we must no longer follow the ways of the world...and be obedient to God
Are saved believers obedient to God or lost unbelievers? Are we saved BY good works or FOR good works? What say you?
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
I understand perfectly. Those who are born of God no longer follow the ways of the world and are obedient to God BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. Works of obedience are the fruit of saving faith, but are not the means of our salvation. Christ's finished work of redemption is the all sufficient means of our salvation. Let's not get the cart before the horse.

Nobody is implying that those who are born of God refuse to obey the commands of God, practice sin and not righteousness. That is an oxymoron. 1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Those who practice righteousness do so BECAUSE they are children of God and not in order to become children of God. This is where certain people put the cart before the horse and base salvation on works. Those who practice sin do so BECAUSE they are children of the devil and not in order to become children of the devil. Either we are saved by believing or else we are saved by working. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.
we are saved by grace through faith
when Jesus called Peter, James, John and the other disciples did he say follow me or did he drag them off...did they obey or did he make them captive...when you submitted to the call of God did you obey him or did he drag you into the kingdom? are you saying you were saved then were put into the kingdom? or did you obey God's word to enter into the kingdom...grace is the goodness of God leading you to repentance...faith is you believing and obeying God
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
(works produced by saving faith. ) show me this quote from scripture...it is you who twist...
When you show me this quote from Scripture: "God is sovereign."

Yet God's sovereignty is attested to throughout the entire Bible.

Show me the word "relationship" in Scripture, yet it is the nature of our dealing with God in the new covenant.

Principle: Absence of a particular phrase in Scripture does not mean absence of the meaning of the phrase in Scripture.

You will find the meaning of the phrase "works produced by saving faith"
in the contexts of Ro 1:5; 1Th 1:3; 2Th 1:11; Gal 5:6.