In context: Romans 4:4-5
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so you think the word of God is inadequate and you have to make your personal input....we are saved by grace through faith....this saving faith quote will only complicate matters...it is through faith....no scripture you presented is in that context since it is the work of faith and we are saved by grace through faith....Grace is doing the saving through faith
That is also a redefinition of Eph 2:8-9.
Guess, it just depends on who is doing the redefining.
Nope. . .context shows it is speaking of the works of obedience produced by faith.
Skinski7ism straw man. . .
Nope. . .their hearts are filthy, but they do not remain filthy,
for God justifies the wicked (Ro 4:5) and they are filthy no more.
However, in Skinski7ism, God's justification is powerless to cleanse the sinner's filth.
Guess, it just depends on who is doing the redefining.
Nope. . .context shows it is speaking of the works of obedience produced by faith.
Skinski7ism straw man. . .
Nope. . .their hearts are filthy, but they do not remain filthy,
for God justifies the wicked (Ro 4:5) and they are filthy no more.
However, in Skinski7ism, God's justification is powerless to cleanse the sinner's filth.
Nothing like taking Romans 4 out of context of the book of Romans to prove a wrong point!
In context, according to Craig Blomberg in From Pentecost to Patmos: An Introduction to Acts through Revelation, Romans 4 is Paul taking up the point of the JEWS and their objections, in order to REFUTE salvation by works.
The objection starts in Romans 4:1. He is restating the objections of the Jews, who say that Abraham was justified by works. But no, turns out:
"For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:"
If you continue to read in Romans 4, it says clearly that the promise to Abraham was NOT through the law, but rather through the righteousness of faith.
"For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void." Romans 4:13-14
In other words, Abraham's faith, rather than his works, was what was written down in his ledger, so to speak. Abraham was also justified by faith before his circumcision, (Romans 4:1-12) so that he forms the model for how the circumcised and the uncircumcised alike are to be saved today. (Romans 4:13-25)
As a result, neither Abraham nor any other person of faith has anything to boast about in God's presence. (4:2).While most Pauline texts describing the impotence of good works in providing salvation have the commandments of Moses primarily in view, here a more general principle emerges:
* When individuals work "their wages are not credited to" them "as a gift, but as an obligation."
* But to those who do NOT work, but trust "God to justify the wicked" their faith is credited as righteousness. (verse 4)
I confess, a more twisted view of these verses, pulled out of context in Romans I have not seen!!
We simply are NOT justified by works.
PS. My suggestion is to read a modern translation of the Bible like ESV above, so you don't get all twisted and distort the Bible because you do not understand the early modern English it was written in, let alone the Greek!
In context, according to Craig Blomberg in From Pentecost to Patmos: An Introduction to Acts through Revelation, Romans 4 is Paul taking up the point of the JEWS and their objections, in order to REFUTE salvation by works.
The objection starts in Romans 4:1. He is restating the objections of the Jews, who say that Abraham was justified by works. But no, turns out:
"For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:"
If you continue to read in Romans 4, it says clearly that the promise to Abraham was NOT through the law, but rather through the righteousness of faith.
"For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void." Romans 4:13-14
In other words, Abraham's faith, rather than his works, was what was written down in his ledger, so to speak. Abraham was also justified by faith before his circumcision, (Romans 4:1-12) so that he forms the model for how the circumcised and the uncircumcised alike are to be saved today. (Romans 4:13-25)
As a result, neither Abraham nor any other person of faith has anything to boast about in God's presence. (4:2).While most Pauline texts describing the impotence of good works in providing salvation have the commandments of Moses primarily in view, here a more general principle emerges:
* When individuals work "their wages are not credited to" them "as a gift, but as an obligation."
* But to those who do NOT work, but trust "God to justify the wicked" their faith is credited as righteousness. (verse 4)
I confess, a more twisted view of these verses, pulled out of context in Romans I have not seen!!
We simply are NOT justified by works.
PS. My suggestion is to read a modern translation of the Bible like ESV above, so you don't get all twisted and distort the Bible because you do not understand the early modern English it was written in, let alone the Greek!
It is through faith you enter the kingdom by being born of water and the spirit....
do I need to tell you faith without works is dead?.....this is not a one of action thing it is through faith it does not end at day one ...it continues until you die or Christ returns ...whichever comes first....(through...continuing in time toward completion of a process or period)
do I need to tell you faith without works is dead?.....this is not a one of action thing it is through faith it does not end at day one ...it continues until you die or Christ returns ...whichever comes first....(through...continuing in time toward completion of a process or period)
I do not see how this can be such a big controversy! Abraham actually acted in a certain way, Abraham did that based on his faith. If he would have acted as he did for any other reason, it would have meant nothing. It is the faith God saw, and if Abraham's faith would have been so small it would not have resulted in the actions it wouldn't have been real faith.
So what came first the chicken or the egg? Why argue about it.
So what came first the chicken or the egg? Why argue about it.
You are the one who does not believe in Eph 2:8-9 because you have no testimony of victory over sin through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
All you have is faith in doctrines with no power.
The power of God in my life gives me victory over the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.
Saved by grace through faith literally means that it is through yielding to God from our hearts that the power of God through grace is manifested as a total transformation of our being from the inside out. Thus our hearts are made pure by our faith as grace leads us unto all righteousness. That is why grace is the power of God unto godliness.
People like you argue in favour of ongoing wretchedness because you cannot perceive the power of God within the context of a manifest victory over sin. That is a very sad delusion to be under.
All you have is faith in doctrines with no power.
The power of God in my life gives me victory over the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.
Saved by grace through faith literally means that it is through yielding to God from our hearts that the power of God through grace is manifested as a total transformation of our being from the inside out. Thus our hearts are made pure by our faith as grace leads us unto all righteousness. That is why grace is the power of God unto godliness.
People like you argue in favour of ongoing wretchedness because you cannot perceive the power of God within the context of a manifest victory over sin. That is a very sad delusion to be under.
We are saved by grace through faith, not works, not faith and works.
Obedience is not forced or legalistic for the genuine born again believer.
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
Colossians 1:13 - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son.
Choosing to believe the gospel is obeying God's word (Romans 1:16). Acts of obedience which follow believing the gospel are good works, which are what we are saved FOR, not by. Refusing to believe the gospel is refusing to obey the gospel (Romans 10:16).
Repent and believe the gospel. Faith is believing. Multiple acts of obedience which follow saving faith that is established and rooted in Christ are works. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and acts of obedience which follow faith are the fruit of salvation.
Obedience is not forced or legalistic for the genuine born again believer.
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
Colossians 1:13 - For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son.
Choosing to believe the gospel is obeying God's word (Romans 1:16). Acts of obedience which follow believing the gospel are good works, which are what we are saved FOR, not by. Refusing to believe the gospel is refusing to obey the gospel (Romans 10:16).
Repent and believe the gospel. Faith is believing. Multiple acts of obedience which follow saving faith that is established and rooted in Christ are works. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and acts of obedience which follow faith are the fruit of salvation.
Okay then,
Romans 4:4-5New International Version (NIV)[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. [SUP]5 [/SUP]However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
What does hat say to the one that does not work, is justified by God? Why because they trust God?
Romans 4:4-5Living Bible (TLB)
[SUP]4-5 [/SUP]But didn’t he earn his right to heaven by all the good things he did? No, for being saved is a gift; if a person could earn it by being good, then it wouldn’t be free—but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. For God declares sinners to be good in his sight if they have faith in Christ to save them from God’s wrath.[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP]
[SUP]]
[/SUP]Romans 4:4-5English Standard Version (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And to the one who does not work but believes in[SUP][a][/SUP] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
You just keep right on working. Do you not know, that if God the creator, Christ's Father ever rewarded you, me for what we do right, then that would make the one rewarded as if that one were God. Go on get some more pats on the back, and keep playing s if you are God
Matthew 6:16
“And now about fasting. When you fast, declining your food for a spiritual purpose, don’t do it publicly, as the hypocrites do, who try to look wan and disheveled so people will feel sorry for them. Truly, that is the only reward they will ever get.
Matthew 6:16Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Keep on telling your right hand what your left hand is doing, rewards for you and you, but from Father
Matthew 6:3
But when you do a kindness to someone, do it secretly—don’t tell your left hand what your right hand is doing.
Romans 4:4-5New International Version (NIV)[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. [SUP]5 [/SUP]However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
What does hat say to the one that does not work, is justified by God? Why because they trust God?
Romans 4:4-5Living Bible (TLB)
[SUP]4-5 [/SUP]But didn’t he earn his right to heaven by all the good things he did? No, for being saved is a gift; if a person could earn it by being good, then it wouldn’t be free—but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. For God declares sinners to be good in his sight if they have faith in Christ to save them from God’s wrath.[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP]
[SUP]]
[/SUP]Romans 4:4-5English Standard Version (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And to the one who does not work but believes in[SUP][a][/SUP] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
You just keep right on working. Do you not know, that if God the creator, Christ's Father ever rewarded you, me for what we do right, then that would make the one rewarded as if that one were God. Go on get some more pats on the back, and keep playing s if you are God
Matthew 6:16
“And now about fasting. When you fast, declining your food for a spiritual purpose, don’t do it publicly, as the hypocrites do, who try to look wan and disheveled so people will feel sorry for them. Truly, that is the only reward they will ever get.
Matthew 6:16Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Keep on telling your right hand what your left hand is doing, rewards for you and you, but from Father
Matthew 6:3
But when you do a kindness to someone, do it secretly—don’t tell your left hand what your right hand is doing.
You gave no refutation to your problem but just avoided dealing with it.
EPh 2:9 "not of works"
1) If "not of works" excludes obedient works in obeying the will of God, then that implies one can disobey God's commands thereby sinning/transgressing/doing unrighteousness and yet still be saved. If God's commands do not have to be obeyed, then one then does not need a bible to follow and guide him unto truth but can humanistically follow his own opinions.
2) If obedient works in obeying the will of God means one is trying to merit grace, then God evidently desires man to merit grace as indicated by the many, many, many conditional commands God has given throughout the bible.. Did God give all those commands just to ignored, disobeyed?