In context: Romans 4:4-5
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Jesus power is not limited by new or old covenant
Matthew 9:1-6King James Version (KJV)
9 And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
John 1:28-30King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Romans 3:24-26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Matthew 9:1-6King James Version (KJV)
9 And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
John 1:28-30King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Romans 3:24-26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
this is also the scripture brother
John 15
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you.[SUP][/SUP] No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit;[SUP][/SUP] apart from me you can do nothing.
If you remain in me you will bear/produce the fruit.
So Obey to the Lord, Love etcetera is start with faith in Jesus.
If you don't have faith/don't trust Him, then you not obey unless he force you to follow Him. He never force you.
It's mean salvation is start with Faith in Jesus, not work. It bear/produce work but work not produce salvation. It is all the way around.
What u-turn? I explained several verses from scripture to you clearly. Half of what you say doesn't even make sense. I did not believe the gospel until I heard the word, then afterward I repented and believed the gospel.
God's word is alive and God draws us and enables us (John 6:44,65) then we either come to Christ through faith or else we don't.
I said faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Contrary to what you say...Faith comes by hearing, faith is believing and obedience that follows is works.
Practicing righteousness and not sin is being a doer of the word and according to John, do children of the devil or children of God practice righteousness and not sin? (1 John 3:7-10). Blessed in his deed is not saved by works.
If all you hear is babble when the truth from scripture is explained to you, then you need to read 1 Corinthians 2:14 to find out why the truth comes across as babble. Everything that I explain to you continues to go right over your head.
Abraham believed God and left, yet when was Abraham's faith accounted to him for righteousness? When he left or not until Genesis 15:5-6?
So what is your point? Simply leaving his home was only the beginning that eventually brought him to where God brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6).
God's word is alive and God draws us and enables us (John 6:44,65) then we either come to Christ through faith or else we don't.
I said faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Contrary to what you say...Faith comes by hearing, faith is believing and obedience that follows is works.
Practicing righteousness and not sin is being a doer of the word and according to John, do children of the devil or children of God practice righteousness and not sin? (1 John 3:7-10). Blessed in his deed is not saved by works.
If all you hear is babble when the truth from scripture is explained to you, then you need to read 1 Corinthians 2:14 to find out why the truth comes across as babble. Everything that I explain to you continues to go right over your head.
Abraham believed God and left, yet when was Abraham's faith accounted to him for righteousness? When he left or not until Genesis 15:5-6?
So what is your point? Simply leaving his home was only the beginning that eventually brought him to where God brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6).
AT Robertson was right on and you have allowed your theological bias to get in the way of harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching the proper conclusion. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and under the New Covenant, brings the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:3; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony* Are you going to continue to ignore Matthew 3:11? "I baptize you with water for (eis) "in order to obtain" repentance or "in reference to/in regards to" repentance? Does baptism obtain repentance? If you can believe that then you can believe anything!
Words in scripture do not all get a broad brushed application in every verse. For (eis) can look forward or backwards, depending on the context. Robertson knows that scripture must harmonize with scripture or else we have a contradiction in scripture. Your "sins remitted in H20/dipped or condemned" theology negates many passages of scripture.
Like I already said, By refusing baptism, the Pharisees and lawyers demonstrated that they rejected John's call to repentance (which is the means of having their sins remitted, which is signified in baptism, which demonstrates that they rejected God Himself). Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (SIGNIFIED BY) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (SIGNIFIED BY) not having been baptized by John. Plain and simple.
That's all you have? A remote possibility? It's also a remote possibility that Hitler repented just before he died too, right? You continue to grasp for straws.
Being crucified as a thief, mocking, blaspheming and shaking his head at Jesus is much more than an assumption. That's no disciple of Jesus! But later he repented and believed.
Don't forget verse 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. It's no surprise that they left.
The thief was saved through faith/believing in Him before the cross (Luke 9:50; John 3:18) and we are saved through faith/believing in Him after the cross (Ephesians 2:8; Acts 10:43). Quit trying to make it complicated.
Smoke screen to discredit the thief being saved through faith apart from water baptism. Quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE.
Do I need to share this with you again? Pay attention this time:
Repentance actually precedes saving belief in Christ. Through poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you reverse the order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation. To the contrary we find: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel (not believe the gospel then afterwards repent). Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.
In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust exclusively in Him for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust exclusively in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
Again, in Mark 16:16, He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. Continue to meditate on Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 15:8-9.
If he who believes in Him will be saved (John 3:16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 10:43; 13:39; 16:31) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. Show me just ONE verse in the Bible that says he who is not baptized will be condemned. We find this with repentance (Luke 13:3) and belief (John 3:18) so why not baptism? hhmmm...
Yet unbelievers still get water baptized in various cults and false religions. They are unqualified to be baptized, but they do it anyway, because they trust in the baptism rather than the Savior.
False. Unbelievers get water baptized all the time in false religions that call themselves Christian. Your faulty human logic misses the mark.
Words in scripture do not all get a broad brushed application in every verse. For (eis) can look forward or backwards, depending on the context. Robertson knows that scripture must harmonize with scripture or else we have a contradiction in scripture. Your "sins remitted in H20/dipped or condemned" theology negates many passages of scripture.
Like I already said, By refusing baptism, the Pharisees and lawyers demonstrated that they rejected John's call to repentance (which is the means of having their sins remitted, which is signified in baptism, which demonstrates that they rejected God Himself). Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (SIGNIFIED BY) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (SIGNIFIED BY) not having been baptized by John. Plain and simple.
That's all you have? A remote possibility? It's also a remote possibility that Hitler repented just before he died too, right? You continue to grasp for straws.
Being crucified as a thief, mocking, blaspheming and shaking his head at Jesus is much more than an assumption. That's no disciple of Jesus! But later he repented and believed.
Don't forget verse 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. It's no surprise that they left.
The thief was saved through faith/believing in Him before the cross (Luke 9:50; John 3:18) and we are saved through faith/believing in Him after the cross (Ephesians 2:8; Acts 10:43). Quit trying to make it complicated.
Smoke screen to discredit the thief being saved through faith apart from water baptism. Quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE.
Do I need to share this with you again? Pay attention this time:
Repentance actually precedes saving belief in Christ. Through poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you reverse the order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation. To the contrary we find: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel (not believe the gospel then afterwards repent). Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.
In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust exclusively in Him for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust exclusively in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
Again, in Mark 16:16, He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. Continue to meditate on Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 15:8-9.
If he who believes in Him will be saved (John 3:16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 10:43; 13:39; 16:31) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. Show me just ONE verse in the Bible that says he who is not baptized will be condemned. We find this with repentance (Luke 13:3) and belief (John 3:18) so why not baptism? hhmmm...
Yet unbelievers still get water baptized in various cults and false religions. They are unqualified to be baptized, but they do it anyway, because they trust in the baptism rather than the Savior.
False. Unbelievers get water baptized all the time in false religions that call themselves Christian. Your faulty human logic misses the mark.
You have it backwards. One CANNOT do good works without being a Christian. Faith - root of salvation; good works - fruit of salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - Saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works.
John 14:15 - one CANNOT produce obedient works without love for Christ. You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.
Paul was ruling out works that you are "adding" to salvation through faith. Paul said not saved by works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works. ALL WORKS or else there is a contradiction. Paul said believes on Him/his faith is accounted for righteousness, NOT HIS WORKS. Where did Paul "add works" to believes on Him/faith is accounted for righteousness? It's you who "adds works" to the gospel of grace.
Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning, but Noah was already spiritually saved. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark, so your argument is moot. You are trying so hard to "add works" to salvation through faith and claim no credit for the believer, yet your argument is bogus.
Again, Paul was ruling out works/obedient works/good works/works of righteousness which we have done/our works. When are you going to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through FAITH? Human pride is the enemy!
Ephesians 2:8-10 - Saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works.
John 14:15 - one CANNOT produce obedient works without love for Christ. You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.
Paul was ruling out works that you are "adding" to salvation through faith. Paul said not saved by works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works. ALL WORKS or else there is a contradiction. Paul said believes on Him/his faith is accounted for righteousness, NOT HIS WORKS. Where did Paul "add works" to believes on Him/faith is accounted for righteousness? It's you who "adds works" to the gospel of grace.
Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning, but Noah was already spiritually saved. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark, so your argument is moot. You are trying so hard to "add works" to salvation through faith and claim no credit for the believer, yet your argument is bogus.
Again, Paul was ruling out works/obedient works/good works/works of righteousness which we have done/our works. When are you going to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through FAITH? Human pride is the enemy!
C
You're reasserting the same claim, but I thoroughly refuted this. The key word is justification, not faith or works. The context of James' statements proves he was speaking of justification of a claim.
If a man claims he has faith......
You can't just ignore this because it doesn't line up with your views. James is clearly speaking of justification before men, in regard to claims of faith by men. In that sense, our claim to faith is justified by our works. But that's not the same as saying we are justified before God by our works. May it never be, and if you believe that you're in very bad shape spiritually.
There are good theological definitions of justification, but sometimes the N.T. writers used the word in different ways, and the careful bible student has to be aware of that. For instance, even Paul uses this very same word for justification in a context where he speaking of justification before the world, rather than before God.
Rom. 3:4 May it never be! Yes, let God be found true, but every man a liar. As it is written,
“That you might be justified in your words,
And might prevail when you come into judgment.”
Is God here being justified in the sense of being made righteous? Heavens no!. Here God himself is said to be justified in His words and vindicated before men. But God doesn't need to be justified before himself. That would be silly, and no one would dare interpret this passage that way.
They absolutely are talking about the same kinds of works. They're talking about deeds done before men. Jesus said men will know us by our fruits. These are good works of the law, and the world is watching, and if we have no works, our claims to be christians are not justified.
It's the word justified in certain contexts that you don't understand.
Yes they were, but not before God. Their works have vindicated them before men. Their works have shown them to be followers of God. But their works have not earned them anything in regard to their salvation. That's the part you're stumbling on. That's the part that, unfortunately, may disqualify you from salvation. That's how serious this issue is. Before the Lord, all your works are like filthy rags and you need to come to the Lord with that mindset.
If a man claims he has faith......
You can't just ignore this because it doesn't line up with your views. James is clearly speaking of justification before men, in regard to claims of faith by men. In that sense, our claim to faith is justified by our works. But that's not the same as saying we are justified before God by our works. May it never be, and if you believe that you're in very bad shape spiritually.
There are good theological definitions of justification, but sometimes the N.T. writers used the word in different ways, and the careful bible student has to be aware of that. For instance, even Paul uses this very same word for justification in a context where he speaking of justification before the world, rather than before God.
Rom. 3:4 May it never be! Yes, let God be found true, but every man a liar. As it is written,
“That you might be justified in your words,
And might prevail when you come into judgment.”
Is God here being justified in the sense of being made righteous? Heavens no!. Here God himself is said to be justified in His words and vindicated before men. But God doesn't need to be justified before himself. That would be silly, and no one would dare interpret this passage that way.
They absolutely are talking about the same kinds of works. They're talking about deeds done before men. Jesus said men will know us by our fruits. These are good works of the law, and the world is watching, and if we have no works, our claims to be christians are not justified.
It's the word justified in certain contexts that you don't understand.
Yes they were, but not before God. Their works have vindicated them before men. Their works have shown them to be followers of God. But their works have not earned them anything in regard to their salvation. That's the part you're stumbling on. That's the part that, unfortunately, may disqualify you from salvation. That's how serious this issue is. Before the Lord, all your works are like filthy rags and you need to come to the Lord with that mindset.
Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who "says or claims he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. I will show you my faith by my works.
It's so nice to see that someone gets it!
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says/claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
Amen! In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, there are no good works which are completely detached from loving God with all of our heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. The not saved by works of the law but saved by good works not of the law argument is bogus!
Exactly right!
This is very serious as works salvation is no salvation at all!
Good post brother!
It's so nice to see that someone gets it!
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says/claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
Amen! In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, there are no good works which are completely detached from loving God with all of our heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. The not saved by works of the law but saved by good works not of the law argument is bogus!
Exactly right!
This is very serious as works salvation is no salvation at all!
Good post brother!
the point that most miss is that Abraham made a request to God.....And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? [SUP]3 [/SUP]And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
and God responded.....
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
But his obedience continued
likewise we make a request to God to save us by faith...and we must continue in obedience
and God responded.....
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
But his obedience continued
likewise we make a request to God to save us by faith...and we must continue in obedience
Just as I have explained to you before. In James 2:14, James said "says/claims" he has faith but has no works. James did not say that the hypothetical person actually has faith. James even points out can "that" faith save him. What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. If you say/claim you have faith but have no works to validate your claim, you demonstrate that you have a dead faith, not genuine faith which is evidenced by good works.
Notice in Romans 2:6-10, patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works/deeds, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works/deeds in Ephesians 2:8 but that is clearly not what Paul said.
Puffed up about what? I'm not the one who refuses to let go of their works and take hold of Christ through faith. I know where your theology is coming from. Been there, done that, but now I BELIEVE the gospel and no longer trust in works salvation.
If Abraham had not believed God, then he would not have gone and he also would not have believed God in Genesis 15:5-6 and had it accounted to him for righteousness. He obeyed God numerous times, yet was it his faith or his obedience/works that saved him? (Romans 4:2-3).
I didn't miss any of that and Abraham was still saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-3).
Notice in Romans 2:6-10, patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works/deeds, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works/deeds in Ephesians 2:8 but that is clearly not what Paul said.
Puffed up about what? I'm not the one who refuses to let go of their works and take hold of Christ through faith. I know where your theology is coming from. Been there, done that, but now I BELIEVE the gospel and no longer trust in works salvation.
If Abraham had not believed God, then he would not have gone and he also would not have believed God in Genesis 15:5-6 and had it accounted to him for righteousness. He obeyed God numerous times, yet was it his faith or his obedience/works that saved him? (Romans 4:2-3).
I didn't miss any of that and Abraham was still saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-3).
You talking about James,
Brother, not every verse in the bible is in letter, some of the verse has to interpreted contextually.
James talking about people who profess to have a faith but not.
Not for real, just pretending.
Jesus said you can tell the tree by it fruit.
It mean if it fruit not genuine then not real faith.
Real faith must prove by real fruit. The fruit itself not save us. The faith in Jesus save us and genuine faith see by the fruit.
Again, fruit is just a product of faith, not save us. If a man have a faith in Jesus and die in the same second, he will go to heaven.
Brother, not every verse in the bible is in letter, some of the verse has to interpreted contextually.
James talking about people who profess to have a faith but not.
Not for real, just pretending.
Jesus said you can tell the tree by it fruit.
It mean if it fruit not genuine then not real faith.
Real faith must prove by real fruit. The fruit itself not save us. The faith in Jesus save us and genuine faith see by the fruit.
Again, fruit is just a product of faith, not save us. If a man have a faith in Jesus and die in the same second, he will go to heaven.
Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment.
Here is more proof: Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life.
These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.
Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good "work," an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment.
Here is more proof: Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life.
These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.
Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good "work," an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.
if James was talking to people without faith....why would he say faith without works is dead? Why would he say can that faith save? James is talking to people with faith but no works...these people did not understand so he is explaining to them ....What is the faith you have in Jesus ?...How does he save you? What did he tell you to do that your sins be remitted?.....when did he say you will receive the HS ?