In context: Romans 4:4-5

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Sep 21, 2014
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I didn't miss any of that and Abraham was still saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-3).
Well, yer half right.

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham's justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham's justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ.
Kindly refrain from making up things. That above is just you saying it. Eph 2 says by grace you are saved through faith . . . NOT OF WORKS lest anyone should boast. Period, end of sentence. NO WORKS SAVE. Works are the result of salvation not its cause. Works cannot save because the unsaved man has no good works (there is none who does good, no not one.)

This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:
You have no proof for your claims; they are nonsense, contrary to the plain word of God.

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”
Do not confuse salvation & justification (a declaration of righteousness). Scripture is clear that when a man who is a sinner with no good works, trusts the Savior, at once that man is saved & justified by faith apart from anything else; as for example John 3:16 & Romans. But after a man is saved, his good works do justify him also in that they bring a declaration of righteousness. The man who already was declared righteous (like Abe) without any works, but by grace, is declared righteous whenever he does a good work -- God recognizes good works done by the power of the Holy Spirit as good works; the works declare that the man who was saved long ago & justified long ago is righteous. When Abe offered up Isaac, Abe had already been declared righteous without works years before.


to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment.
Wrong. The declaration that works don't save is comprehensive. And unsaved men have no good works anyway. Romans brings both Gentile & Jew under condemnation of works in Rom 1-3. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; there is none that doeth good. The works of a Jew under the law are filthy rags, just as are the gentile never under the law.

[/quote]Here is more proof: Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin.[/quote]

That is not a shred of proof, for it is more proof that men are sinners & have no good works. If Jews under the law are sinners, that does not establish that Gentiles have good works. Paul's policy was to preach Jews first, then Gentiles wherever he went. He told the Ephesians (predominantly Gentile) there salvation was not of works, which is hardly limited to works under the law. God's will is broken by sinful man whether it is expressed in Moses or in any other way.

We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
The DSS prove absolutely nothing in this regard & aside from copies of the OT, they are not God's words. What you fail to understand is that the unsaved man has no works by which he could be saved. Do you misunderstand salvation altogether? Salvation is about a SAvior who saves sinners who say "God be merciful to me a sinner." Salvation is not about validating anyone's works. Salvation is awarded the moment a man believes with a new birth, becoming a child of God with the promise of eternal life. "I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish." Salvation does not depend on a future judgment as an award for good works.

[/quote]Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith.[/quote]

Nonsense. The text states plainly that a man without good works (that is everyone before saved) gets saved by trusting the Savior (faith) -- apart from works. There is nothing about doing works in faith there.

Can you get this?
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.


If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life.
Your verses hardly establish your theory. Actually to get saves requires that you rest in the Savior and abandon any hope of works-salvation in self-righteousness. You must rest in faith in the Savior & let Him do the saving. James speaks of good works done AFTER A MAN IS SAVED. They don't save in James nor anywhere else in scripture. They do declare that you are righteous after you are saved & have been recreated by God to be able to do good works.

Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good "work," an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.
Romans 6 is basically about the Christian life, not initial salvation. Christians (saved) can sin or obey; they do have that choice.

The only obedience that saves is obedience to this one command:

Sirs what must I do to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.

Over & over scripture offers salvation on one condition presented to man: faith only. It is offered with believe/faith/trust in the Savior ONLY without anything added. And the evidence is too great for one post here. But here is a little of the evidence:

Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.
And indeed He has done so, as in these passages where
it is faith alone!:

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down:) or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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mailmandan;1732757[QUOTE said:
]Just as I have explained to you before. In James 2:14, James said "says/claims" he has faith but has no works. James did not say that the hypothetical person actually has faith. James even points out can "that" faith save him. What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. If you say/claim you have faith but have no works to validate your claim, you demonstrate that you have a dead faith, not genuine faith which is evidenced by good works.
your reasoning is getting more and more reprobate ...if the hypothetical person has no faith..then why ask can that faith save?
what does he say...[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.....he did not say an empty profession of faith.....he said FAITH if it has no works is dead....because it is alone...







Notice in Romans 2:6-10, patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works/deeds, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works/deeds in Ephesians 2:8 but that is clearly not what Paul said.
in other words you don't believe this....[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Paul made a mistake....



Puffed up about what? I'm not the one who refuses to let go of their works and take hold of Christ through faith. I know where your theology is coming from. Been there, done that, but now I BELIEVE the gospel and no longer trust in works salvation.
it is you who said everything you post goes over my head....I am not a midget...

If Abraham had not believed God, then he would not have gone and he also would not have believed God in Genesis 15:5-6 and had it accounted to him for righteousness. He obeyed God numerous times, yet was it his faith or his obedience/works that saved him? (Romans 4:2-3).



I didn't miss any of that and Abraham was still saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-3).
faith without works is dead

[/QUOTE]

James 2:20-22King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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We have a new post where someone apparently is unaware of all the times God offers salvation for faith alone (nothing else). So here is some of the evidence & I can post more:

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[FAITH ALONE; NO WORKS, NO WATER]
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]


For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? [And Revelation tells us that such believers are never blotted out!]
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
 
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Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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if James was talking to people without faith....why would he say faith without works is dead? Why would he say can that faith save? James is talking to people with faith but no works...these people did not understand so he is explaining to them ....What is the faith you have in Jesus ?...How does he save you? What did he tell you to do that your sins be remitted?.....when did he say you will receive the HS ?
Let me ask you question brother.

Do you believe there is a man, profess has genuine faith in Jesus but in his daily life is a rapist and robber?

Even if this man do a lot of wonderful work Jesus will say depart from me I don't know you.

Do you believe a pope is apostle successor if he kill and persecute a lot of what so call heresy?

Matt 7
[SUP]15[/SUP] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[SUP]16[/SUP] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[SUP]17[/SUP] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[SUP]18[/SUP] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[SUP]19[/SUP] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[SUP]20[/SUP] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[SUP]21[/SUP] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22[/SUP] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


In this teaching I believe Jesus want to said if the faith is genuine, than the fruit must be love.

There isn't genuine faith without good fruit.

James is not going to teach there is genuine faith with bad fruit. James only quip them.
 
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We have a new post where someone apparently is unaware of all the times God offers salvation for faith alone (nothing else). So here is some of the evidence & I can post more:
You are taking scripture apart so you can justify your decision that works mean nothing. You have done a very good job of it, you pass a class in philosophy. But you aren't obeying the Lord.

The very meaning of the word faith as it is used biblically is depending so completely in the word of the Lord that you base your life, how you live your life, everything on it. With you holding back on being able to do any works, you are denying your faith. Faith without works in dead.

Works without faith has no meaning at all, and to use our works to achieve grace doesn't work, either. It takes everything scripture tells us to arrive at truth, and anytime we use just parts of scripture we aren't going to get there.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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if James was talking to people without faith....why would he say faith without works is dead? Why would he say can that faith save? James is talking to people with faith but no works...these people did not understand so he is explaining to them ....What is the faith you have in Jesus ?...How does he save you? What did he tell you to do that your sins be remitted?.....when did he say you will receive the HS ?
Brother Newbirth,

I believe you agree that James teaching is not oppose Jesus teaching don't you.

Jesus teach that it is impossible for good tree produce bad fruit.


Mean it is impossible for genuine faith produce bad work. If you interpreted James said it is possible genuine faith produce bad work, than you said James teaching against Jesus. And I don't think that is what you believe don't you?

Fruit never save you, even if it is good fruit, it's only a product of good tree.

Faith In Jesus the one that save you.

We respect his sacrifice in the cross do we?. by saying our good work save us is to replace what Jesus did.


Matt 7
[SUP]15[/SUP] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[SUP]16[/SUP] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[SUP]17[/SUP] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[SUP]18[/SUP] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[SUP]19[/SUP] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[SUP]20[/SUP] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[SUP]21[/SUP] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22[/SUP] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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The simple, factual points are:
Eph 2:10 one CANNOT be a Christian without doing good works
Jn 14:15 one CANNOT love Christ without obedient works

Therefore Paul was not ruling out these two works in Rom 4:4,5 else he creates contradictions.


Noah built the ark in obedience to God's words but that obedience did not earn the saving of his house. So again, Paul was not ruling out obedient works in Rom 4:4,5.
You confuse salvation by "faith not works"

and "faith without works."

They are not the same.
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:
Where does the Bible say that we are saved by good works done in grace with faith in Christ? Paul said saved through faith, not works.. (Ephesians 2:8,9); not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5); He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9).

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment.
Your proof is lacking. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). The Bible does not teach that we are saved by good works, just not specific works of the law. The harmony of Ephesians 2:8,9 and James 2:24 is not seen in Paul and James discussing two different types of works, but is seen in how Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. James is not using the word "justified" here in James 2:24 to mean "is accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith, not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

*Notice closely in James 2:21 that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God is righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, " they acknowledged God's justice." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 - "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of the moral aspect of the Mosaic law? No.

Here is more proof: Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin.
You correctly pointed out here that the "moral" aspect of the Mosaic law is included which includes good works and is not merely limited to specific works of the law like circumcision. So we are saved through faith and not by works of any kind.

We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
So to neglect a brother or sister of clothing and food is NOT to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) and this commandment is NOT found written in the law of Moses? (Leviticus 19:18). Is this not part of the moral aspect of the law? I don't see Paul's works of the law and James' works as entirely different types of works at all. Paul often says "works of the law," since members of his audience were particularly hung up on, especially circumcision, being Jewish (Acts 15:5; Romans 3; Galatians 3). However, when speaking to churches with a large Gentile constituency, Paul sometimes used the word "works" without limiting it to specific works of the law, such as circumcision. In Ephesians 2:8,9 he declares, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". Likewise, in Titus 3:5 he affirmed that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. In 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said, He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. So, it is not just specific "works of the law" like circumcision but ANY "works/good works/works of righteousness" that are the insufficient means of our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works. We are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us).
Rewards us by works, not saves us by works. 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. God would owe us if any works, whether they are a part of the moral or ceremonial aspect of the law. Good works are part of the moral aspect of the law.

Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life.
None of these passages above say that we are saved by works. I already explained Romans 2:6-10. Please pay special attention that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good - Romans 2:10 and ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil - Romans 2:9. What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. Judgment for believers results in rewards and loss of rewards according to our works, not salvation based on works.

These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.
What a genuine believer means by salvation through faith IN CHRIST alone and what James means by faith that remains alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) of works is not the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. The Bible clearly teaches in many passages of scripture that we are saved through believing in Him/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:5; 10:4; Ephesians 2:8 etc.. You don't need to add the word "alone" next to believes in Him/faith in each of these passages to figure out that the words "believes in Him/faith" stand alone in these many passages of scripture in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these passages say believes in Him/faith "and works?" No! So then it's faith (rightly understood IN CHRIST) alone.

Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good "work," an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.
This verse often gets misunderstood because people isolate the words "obedience unto/leads to righteousness" without reading the words that precede it. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? We must not ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin resulting in death, or servants/slaves of obedience resulting in righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.
 
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That may sound true but the scripture says faith without works is dead ...that tells me some have faith and do not obey...ConcerningThose who no longer have faith or departed from the faith......why will he obey when he does not believe?
You confuse salvation by "faith not works"

and "faith without works."

They are not the same thing.
 
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Brother Newbirth,

I believe you agree that James teaching is not oppose Jesus teaching don't you.

Jesus teach that it is impossible for good tree produce bad fruit.


Mean it is impossible for genuine faith produce bad work. If you interpreted James said it is possible genuine faith produce bad work, than you said James teaching against Jesus. And I don't think that is what you believe don't you?

Fruit never save you, even if it is good fruit, it's only a product of good tree.

Faith In Jesus the one that save you.

We respect his sacrifice in the cross do we?. by saying our good work save us is to replace what Jesus did.


Matt 7
[SUP]15[/SUP] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[SUP]16[/SUP] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[SUP]17[/SUP] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[SUP]18[/SUP] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[SUP]19[/SUP] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[SUP]20[/SUP] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[SUP]21[/SUP] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22[/SUP] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
where in the scripture does it say faith produce works? We are the ones who produce works/fruits/ through faith in Christ...it is you who keep saying faith produces works....Christ does not say that.... James does not say that .....I did not say that....There are those who believe in faith alone ...James is telling them faith without works is dead......
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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where in the scripture does it say faith produce works? We are the ones who produce works/fruits/ through faith in Christ...it is you who keep saying faith produces works....Christ does not say that.... James does not say that .....I did not say that....There are those who believe in faith alone ...James is telling them faith without works is dead......
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
This is interpretation brother.

Jesus said good tree must bear good fruit. What is good tree mean for you brother? Is good tree mean genuine faith or bad pretending faith.

Jesus said if branch not abide the vine can't bear fruit/produce fruit.

Is that possible a man doesn't have genuine faith in Jesus abide to Jesus?

If a man abide in Jesus mean he have a genuine faith in Jesus and he will bear fruit/good work.

So Faith in Jesus will produce good work.

Is that possible a man have genuine faith/abide in Jesus and not bear fruit? Jesus said no, who ever abide in Jesus will produce good fruit.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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your reasoning is getting more and more reprobate ...if the hypothetical person has no faith..then why ask can that faith save?
Reprobate? Seriously? Because the hypothetical person claims to have faith but has no works to back up his claim. That's why James ask, can that faith save him? The obvious answer is no, because that faith is a dead faith. James is discussing works as the proof of faith.

James 2:20-22King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
I already explained all of this to you in a previous post. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. "Shown to be righteous." In verse 22, Made perfect or completed by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

what does he say...[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.....he did not say an empty profession of faith.....he said FAITH if it has no works is dead....because it is alone...
To claim you have faith but have no works, faith is dead, being alone is an empty profession of faith. Was this profession validated by works? No! So it's a bare/empty profession of faith. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Because you believe James is teaching that we are saved by works? You keep ignoring that James said says or claims he has faith. That remains a huge stumbling block for you when interpreting James 2:14-24.

in other words you don't believe this....[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Paul made a mistake...
I believe this and Paul did not make a mistake. You simply misinterpreted what Paul said because you read the Bible through the lens of works salvation.

it is you who said everything you post goes over my head....I am not a midget...
LOL! Glad to see you have a sense of humor. :D

faith without works is dead
Context. Claims to have faith but has no works. It takes a living faith to produce good works (Ephesians 2:5-10) just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. Works are not the actual source of life in faith. Works are the fruit of faith.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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You are taking scripture apart so you can justify your decision that works mean nothing.
No taking apart is required. It is plain as the nose on your face:

Believe on the Lord JEsus Christ, & you shall be saved. What is hard to understand about that?

For by grace you have been saved though faith . . . not of works!

It is so crystal clear. Someone tried to torture the words of the Bible & postulate that the works aren't the right kind of works there, but they are here. Give us a break. Not of works = not of works!

But you aren't obeying the Lord.
If you want to obey the Lord start with this one:

Believe on the Lord Jesus, & you shall be saved.

Start with God be merciful to me a sinner.

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.

Good works follow trust in the Savior.

The very meaning of the word faith as it is used biblically is depending so completely in the word of the Lord
The object of the Faith is the Son of God, a person. He is trusted as Savior. His name is Jesus, for He saves His people from their sins. He makes the righteousness to go forth. You cannot do any good works until you trust the Savior and get saved! All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; there is none who does good, no not one.

that you base your life, how you live your life, everything on it. With you holding back on being able to do any works, you are denying your faith. Faith without works in dead.
More making things up. Faith brings salvation with new creation which results in works. Works cannot precede salvation as a man dead in trespasses & sins has no good works.

Works without faith has no meaning at all, and to use our works to achieve grace doesn't work, either. It takes everything scripture tells us to arrive at truth, and anytime we use just parts of scripture we aren't going to get there.[/QUOTE]

Cease fire on making things up. That is you, not the Bible. That is not just parts of the Bible, it is no Bible. You have no Greek lexicon for pistis. And you greatly err by trying to make it mean what it does not mean. You will never do any good works until you trust Christ the Savior.

Give heed to the word:

2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—

[Thus it is with the unsaved; they have no good works but are in a desperate state of depravity. Can you confess that of yourself & move on to God be merciful to me a sinner?]

4
but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses,

[dead, dead, dead -- no good works! a sinful wretch needing the grace of a Savior]

made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

It is not rocket science. Fall on the knees, trust in the Son of God Who paid for your sins on the cross & rose victorious. Call on His name, ask Him to save you & trust Him to do so. Now is the day of salvation.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Give up any struggle to establish you good works; stop struggling & start trusting the Savior. You will not be saved by works, because the unsaved man who needs salvation has no works. Now don't read yourself out of your desperate need by claiming your church membership. Joining a local church saves no one. ONly the Lord Jesus saves, He who is called Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[FAITH ALONE; NO WORKS, NO WATER]
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]


For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
​ [NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? [And Revelation tells us that such believers are never blotted out!]
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Well, yer half right.

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham's justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15.
Show me the word "justified" in Genesis 12:1-4 and Hebrews 11:8-10. Show me prior to Genesis 15:6 where Abraham's faith was said to be "accounted to him for righteousness."

Abraham's justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.
You are confusing justification (which is a one time event-therefore, having been justified by faith Romans 5:1) with sanctification which is an ongoing process of growing in holiness. That is a critical error. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.
Please show me the word "justified" in Genesis 14:19,22-23.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.
Protestants? Are you Roman Catholic? That would explain the confusion. What does Romans 4:2-3 say? Where does the Bible say that Abraham was "justified" 25 years earlier in Genesis 12:1-4 and Hebrews 11:8-10? Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:2-3 proves otherwise.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God.
Abraham was shown to be righteous by his works. His works proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the sense in which he was justified by works. He was not saved by works. He was accounted as righteous based on his faith many years before his work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 22. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: *Crystal clear.

James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.
Absolutely false and equates to salvation by works, which is no salvation at all. Justification is a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Jesus is an all sufficient Savior. No supplements needed. Please tell me, since you believe that you will be saved by works, why don't you explain to me just how many works you must accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you? As I already explained to you. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. "Shown to be righteous, not accounted as righteous" (Romans 4:2-3). In verse 22, made perfect or completed by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In verse 23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.
 
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Show me the word "justified" in Genesis 12:1-4 and Hebrews 11:8-10. Show me prior to Genesis 15:6 where Abraham's faith was said to be "accounted to him for righteousness."
Gen. 12
Now the Lord said[SUP][a][/SUP] to Abram, “Go from your country[SUP][b][/SUP] and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Just because the term "justified" is not in the verse does not mean that Abraham was not justified. He gets this HUMUNGOUS blessing directly from God and you say he wasn't justified because the word isn't there? Have you heard of scriptural myopia?

Hebrews 11:8-10 (ESV)
[SUP]
8
[/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

The above verse is referring to the blue text below your quote. It's right here in this post. Paul is obviously referring to Gen. 12., not Gen. 15.

Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves. You don't need a masters degree in Scriptology to see it.

You are confusing justification (which is a one time event-therefore, having been justified by faith Romans 5:1)
We are justified by faith, that's true. But there is nothing in Rom. 5:1 that says "faith alone" and it does not prove justification is a one time event.

Romans 5:1 (ESV)
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Try harder.
 
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Abraham was shown to be righteous by his works. His works proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the sense in which he was justified by works. He was not saved by works.
I didn't say he was.

He was accounted as righteous based on his faith many years before his work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 22.
Yes, I said that. I used Gen. 12 which was many years before his work of offering up Isaac. God gave Abram one of the greatest blessings in the Od Testament but you don't accept it because the word "justified" isn't in the verse.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: *Crystal clear.
David never said that. Clear as mud. There is nothing in Genesis to suggest that Abram a.k.a. Abraham was doing works alone to be justified. Paul is not talking about good works (like obedience, love) in the grace of Christ. And humble people don't boast in the first place. It looks to me like Paul is making a contrast with self effort and grace, and Paul never says "faith alone" .


Absolutely false and equates to salvation by works, which is no salvation at all.
No, it doesn't.
[Justification is a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior.
No, it's a process.

2 Cor. 4:16 - though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed "every day." This not only proves that justification is internal (not legal and external), but that it is also ongoing (it's not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior). Our inner nature is being renewed every day as we persevere in faith, hope and love. The reformers made faith the greatest virtue. tst tsk.

John 3:16 - justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

1 Sam. 13:14 - David is justified here, as God describes him as “a man after his own heart.” No one in Scripture is described like this. Acts 13:22 confirms David’s justification before God.

1 Sam. 16:13 – David is also justified here. “The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.”

1 Sam. 17:37-54 – David is further justified here, as he responds to God’s grace and God delivers him from the hand of Goliath the Philistine.

2 Sam. 6:9,14 – David is further justified here, as he expresses a fear for the Lord in the presence of His ark, and dances before the ark of the Lord with all his might.

2 Sam. 12:7-15 - however, after David’s on-going justification before God, David falls out of justification by committing adultery with Bathsheba and slaying Uriah the Hittite. David still had faith in God, but he lost his justification because of his evil works.

Psalm 32:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8; cf. 51:2,7-10,17 – David repents of his sin and writes these beautiful psalms about God’s mercy and forgiveness. Of himself, he writes, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered up.” David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

Matt. 16:18-19 – Jesus blesses Simon for receiving a Revelation from God, changes his name to Peter, and gives him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. In John 6:68-69, Peter, justified before God, declares that Jesus has the words of eternal life. In Luke 22:31-32, Jesus prays for Peter that his faith may not fail and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles. In these and many other examples, Peter is justified before God.

Matt. 26:75; Mark 14:72; John 18:17, 25-27 – Peter denies he knows Jesus and loses his justification before God.
John 21:15-17 – Peter is re-justified before God after he negates his three-fold denial of Jesus with a three-fold confirmation of his love for him. Jesus then charges Peter to feed the Lord’s sheep. Peter was justified, loses his justification, and regains it again through repentance and love.

Luke 15:24,32 - the prodigal son was dead, and now is alive again; he was lost and now is found. The prodigal son regained his father’s favor through repentance (v. 18-19,21). When we ask our Father for forgiveness, we too will regain His favor and be justified.

Acts 9:1- 17 - Protestants would say that Paul is instantly justified here, when he encounters Christ, obeys His command to enter the city, and is moved by the Holy Spirit. They would say that Paul’s sins are now covered up and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him. Acts 9:18; 22:16 - then why does Ananias command Saint Paul (who was directly chosen by Christ) to stand up and be baptized and "wash away" his sins? Because justification, as the Church has taught for 2,000 years, is ongoing. Please stop with the idiotic charge of works salvation.




Jesus is an all sufficient Savior. No supplements needed. Please tell me, since you believe that you will be saved by works, why don't you explain to me just how many works you must accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you? As I already explained to you. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. "Shown to be righteous, not accounted as righteous" (Romans 4:2-3). In verse 22, made perfect or completed by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works.
I didn't say he was.
When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In verse 23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.
I'm glad we agree on that much.
 
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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Paul never says "faith alone"
Over & over, too much scripture even to post in one post here; salvation is offered to man by faith alone. Just one example,
"Sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved?"
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved."

"Whosoever believes" excludes any other essential thing, as does everyone who believes.

Imagine buying a ticket for $5 in response to the advertisement, "Everyone who buys a $5 ticket can ride." Then when you present the ticket you bought, someone up & says, but you have to have X in addition to the ticket. That would be false advertisement.

Now salvation is both instant, a present process, and a future glorification. But as for justification, none of the verses you quoted says that justification is a process. For how can a declaration of righteousness be a process? Abe was declared righteous when he believed (justification). Whenever Abe did something righteous after that, of course God would declare him righteous in that matter.

There is a sanctification process for the child of God, but I can't see how that related to justification.

You err by quoting verses that do not say "justify" or "justification," then arguing as if they did.

Then you err by generalizing about Protestants; you err in 2 ways:

1) The typical mainline Protestant, ecclesiastical successor to those who protested the papacy & came out of it, believe very little. They deny the Bible, the Trinity, and salvation by faith.

My guess is that if you poled them, they would tell you they believed that salvation was a future award for good works. As a Protestant growing up, that is what I believed.

2) Which brings us to your 2nd error: It appears that you call everyone who is not a papist (or E orthodox?) a Prot. You don't seem to realize that there are many Bible-believing Christians who do not related their spiritual predecessors to the reformers who came out of the papacy, but rather to the Trail of Blood; real believers who never acknowledge the papacy, like St Patrick. You might consult V Raymond Edmond: The Light in the Dark Ages.

To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time
acceptance of Jesus as Savior.
1) "Accepting Christ as Savior" is not Bible language. The Bible says believe and be saved (with nothing else tacked on, but works excluded as in Ephesians 2.

2) That is an absurd definition of believe (pisteuo) unsupportable and contrary to scriptural usage. It is Alice in Wonderland.

Instant Salvation in Past Tense

“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)

th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)

Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:


But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)

Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)

Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.


In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.


[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9

Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.

he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)


The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.

Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.

Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.


he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)

It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.
 
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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Paul never says "faith alone"
As to Ananias, you evidently don't look at the passage closely enough. And yes, you are teaching salvation by works by your absurd redefinition of believe.

But as to the Bible offering salvation just for faith, faith alone with nothing else tacked on, the evidence is too much for one post here, but I will post some:

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
1 John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
 
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