In context: Romans 4:4-5

[ELECT]

To answered your question, I have to ask you what is your definition about good work.

The thief next to Jesus save without helping the poor, or the needy.


Jesus look his heart more then action. He doesn't have time to helping the needy.

And this is my second question:

Re: In context: Romans 4:4-5

Originally Posted by SeaBass

No.




The purpose of me starting this thread is to demonstrate how those that follow the man-made faith only doctrine twist the Rom 4:4,5 passage.

I just posted a question: in Rom 4:4 what kind of work is Paul talking about in this verse, what kind of work would make one's reward of debt and not of grace?



1. The question: is possible one believe in God and a rapist ? your answered is no.

It mean you believe there is correlation between believe in God and good deeds.

Salvation is product of Believe and believe produce good deeds.>>>>>> good deeds is product of salvation

2. what do you mean by follow man made faith only doctrine?

would you give me specific example?

​

[h=1]Matthew 25:31-46King James Version (KJV)[/h]31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[ELECT]

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

1 Timothy 5:25
Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

1 Timothy 6:18
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

 

[ELECT]

What is the alternative to "does not work" in Romans 4:5? Does other types of work? NO. But believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

What type of works did Paul mention along with "believes on Him/faith is accounted for righteousness?" Your argument here that is also used by Roman Catholics and Mormons in a desperate attempt to get around the truth and support salvation by works has been refuted numerous times.

Since you are saved do you do good works and why ?

 

[newbirth]

verse 4.

No branch bear fruit of it self. And fruit in this verse is fruit of the Holy spirit/lovely work.

Mean if work is the requirement, than no body save, because no body can bear fruit of itself.

Verse 5

Jesus never lie, He said if a man remain in Him / I interpreted as if a man invite Jesus in his heart as a driver/leader/ not a servant. than he will bear fruit/lovely work.

So, as soon as a man invite and have a true faith in Jesus, than he change, not because he have ability to repent from within, but because he abide to the vine.

I repeat one more time, branch doesn't ability to bear the fruit of itself.

your invitation means nothing without obedience.....
God prepares his habitation ......repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the HS....

 

[ELECT]

Newbirth ? for you, do you believe by Christ at the cross we. you are forgiven, that it is done? Or do you think you have to work to maintain forgiveness?

If you donot work


Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Forgiveness would always be by grace our righteouness is filthy rags yet we have to work the parable with the talents

 

[newbirth]

Newbirth ? for you, do you believe by Christ at the cross we. you are forgiven, that it is done? Or do you think you have to work to maintain forgiveness?

then why does the scripture say"sin not"?
Romans 3:24-26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Calminian]

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.


So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

Well you're definitely right that Paul and James do not contradict, but I think you've missed what the difference between them is. The key word to focus on is not faith or works, but justification. You can sum up their views of justification by asking the simple question: "before who?" Paul is speaking of justification before God, where as James is speaking of justification of a claim: "If one says he has faith."

This claim we make to have faith is only justified before the world when we have deeds along with it. For with faith comes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It's impossible to believe and not experience drastic change. But the issue here is perspective—justification of a claim spoken of by James and justification before God spoken of by Paul.

But James would agree that we are not justified before God by works, and Paul would agree that our claim to faith is not justified before the world if it is not accompanied by works. For God changes those who believe.

 

[Jackson123]

everyone has a measure of faith. It is what we do with that faith that matters.

Your sequence seems to be out of line with scripture. One is not attached to the vine until and unless one repents and is baptized and joins with Christ.

Also the Holy Spirit does not have fruit. The fruit is produced by YOUR spirit. It is produced with the influence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not do the work for you, but guides you into doing the good work. One can reject that influence/guidance at any time and return to his sinful ways of living. Which is why your citation of John 15:4 has a condition attached.

My argument is base on the scripture, and I quote the verse, why you said not inline with the bible?

About the fruit, I know we can reject what the Holy spirit want us to do. That's why I said Faith is the key. If we have the faith mean we believe that what the Holy spirit want is the best for us why not do it?

That why my formula is Faith produce salvation and good work.

 

[Jackson123]

Matthew 25:31-46King James Version (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus said if the branch not abide to the vine, it can't not bear the fruit.

These verse above is the fruit of the Spirit. It not going to happen without Faith.

Faith to Jesus produce that kind of work.

 

[Jackson123]

your invitation means nothing without obedience.....
God prepares his habitation ......repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the HS....

That faith all about brother.

Because of faith man obey God. Faith mean entrust. If you entrust you self to the Lord then you obey Him because you know His will is the best for you. It mean you baptize all ready. Like the thief next to Him. He may not go to water baptism but he baptize in the name of Jesus Father and Holy spirit.

Ritual baptism is nothing without pure faith in These name.

 

[SeaBass]

To answered your question, I have to ask you what is your definition about good work.

The thief next to Jesus save without helping the poor, or the needy.


Jesus look his heart more then action. He doesn't have time to helping the needy.

And this is my second question:

Re: In context: Romans 4:4-5

Originally Posted by SeaBass

No.




The purpose of me starting this thread is to demonstrate how those that follow the man-made faith only doctrine twist the Rom 4:4,5 passage.

I just posted a question: in Rom 4:4 what kind of work is Paul talking about in this verse, what kind of work would make one's reward of debt and not of grace?



1. The question: is possible one believe in God and a rapist ? your answered is no.

It mean you believe there is correlation between believe in God and good deeds.

Salvation is product of Believe and believe produce good deeds.>>>>>> good deeds is product of salvation

2. what do you mean by follow man made faith only doctrine?

would you give me specific example?

​

The thief next to Christ was not a Christian nor under Christ's NT gospel. Those today that are Christians who under Christ's NT gospel God has before ordained Christians walk in good works.

So my question remains unanswered: Per Eph 2:10 - Can one who becomes a Christian today NEVER do any good works yet still be saved anyway ?




The man-made teaching of faith only says one can be saved by doing no works, the opoosite of the bible that teaches one must do obedient works to be saved, Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16 among many, many more verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

A very good expose of understanding the relationship of grace, faith and works. it didn't take long for the opposition to expound on all the theories of man is trying to refute scripture.

However, in reading most of the opposition statements the unifying element is that they conflate the work of Christ, the salvation of the world from death and sin and man's response via a personal relationship with God. One has nothing directly to do with the other.

Due to Adam's sin Satan took man captive through the power of death. Our sinning is the result of humans being mortal, under the control of death by Satan. Christ came ONLY to reverse the fall thus providing the means by which God and man could return to the purpose for which He created man, an eternal union of communion.

Now, when Paul is speaking of works not saving, He is referencing the work Christ did to atone for sin. Christ keep the law perfectly by living a perfect life. Man cannot do this. Any reference to such a some make that if we add works it means Christ's work was not sufficient totally misunderstand what Christ actually accomplished and the purpose of why God created man.

As you very well stated, James is not contradicting Paul since he is NOT referencing any work that might substitute for what Christ did, but man's individual response of being in a relationship with Christ which is premised on works. We are justified by faith but works are the evidence of our faith. It is not evidence of salvation.

God created man to be prophet, priest and king with God in this created order. Christ redeemed those functions for man and made it possible for man to freely join with God now and for an eternity. it is absurd to think that He is going to let man off the hook and not enforce the purpose for which He created man.

This faith only doctrine is as unscriptural as a view that God does not exist. It is all work, but work through faith. It is not for the purpose of our salvation from death and sin, but for the purpose of attaining perfection, being Christlike and attaining eternal life. It is a testing period just as much as Adam was being tested in the beginning.

In trying to nullify all works from salvation they nullify all of God's commands.

So what's a man to do?

If a man obeys God's command they will accuse him of trying to earn God's grace.

If a man disobeys God's command then that man stands before God as a disobedient sinner, a worker of unrighteousness > lost.

 

[Jackson123]

The thief next to Christ was not a Christian nor under Christ's NT gospel. Those today that are Christians who under Christ's NT gospel God has before ordained Christians walk in good works.

So my question remains unanswered: Per Eph 2:10 - Can one who becomes a Christian today NEVER do any good works yet still be saved anyway ?




The man-made teaching of faith only says one can be saved by doing no works, the opoosite of the bible that teaches one must do obedient works to be saved, Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16 among many, many more verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation.

Christian mean Christ follower. If a man have a faith in Jesus, he will bear the fruit. and the fruit of the Spirit is,

Galatians 5:22-26King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another


That is the result of Faith. Faith in Jesus produce good work.

You tray to say is your good work produce salvation. And I don't believe that.


The problem is we going to find the root of salvation and that is faith not good work.

Good work such as helping the needy is product of faith.


Good work is product not producer It is upside down.

 

[Jackson123]

The thief next to Christ was not a Christian nor under Christ's NT gospel. Those today that are Christians who under Christ's NT gospel God has before ordained Christians walk in good works.

So my question remains unanswered: Per Eph 2:10 - Can one who becomes a Christian today NEVER do any good works yet still be saved anyway ?




The man-made teaching of faith only says one can be saved by doing no works, the opoosite of the bible that teaches one must do obedient works to be saved, Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16 among many, many more verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation.

I just remember, If the thief not under new testament, than why he not require to do animal sacrifice before Jesus forgive his sin?

 

[SeaBass]

Was John’s baptism for (eis) looking forward to repentance in Matthew 3:11? I baptize you with water for (eis) "in order to obtain" repentance or "with reference to" repentance? Repentance precedes baptism so baptism looks back at repentance and baptism is not the means by which sins are forgiven but is a sign that one has truly repented. The remission of sins is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism (Acts 10:43-47). As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - Certainly John did not mean that the baptism was the means of obtaining the forgiveness of their sins or necessary to the remission of sins. Probably "with reference to" is as good a translation here as is possible. The baptism was on the basis of the repentance. Amen! It’s the same in Matthew 3:11.



By refusing baptism, the Pharisees and lawyers demonstrated that they rejected John's call to repentance (which is the means of having their sins remitted, which is signified in baptism, which demonstrates that they rejected God Himself. Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (SIGNIFIED BY) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (SIGNIFIED BY) not having been baptized by John.

You sound like a dispensationalist who is arguing progressive revelation. Prior to Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, we read John 3:16..whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life John 3:18..he who believes in Him is not condemned..The thief obviously believed in Him and was saved, yet you want to argue the content of what was believed. Was the thief on the cross saved by works? How many works did he accomplish on that cross just prior to his death? Prior to the cross, what was the message "repent and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15) in regards to?



The fact that the thief was being put to death for being a thief and he mocked, blasphemed and shook his head at Jesus prior to his repentance is all the proof I need. In regards to these quitters, in John 6:64-66, Jesus said - But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. In John 8:31, Jesus said - "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. They did not continue; they were not truly His disciples.



I've heard multiple interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (lost salvation, hypothetical statement, not genuine Christians) and your interpretation does not fit the thief previously being a disciple/Christian who fell away then got saved all over again. Verse 6 says "after they fall away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance." So the thief does not fit your argument here.
Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.


The Pharisees knew plenty about Christ. Does that mean they were His disciples? You are grasping for straws here.

Our sins are forgiven because we are deserving? Where did you come up with that? The wages of sin (what we earned, deserve) is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


The thief was saved through faith and we are saved through faith, even though we are not hanging on a cross next to Jesus when we receive salvation through faith. You can argue all you want that the content of the faith of the thief and the content of our faith is different (because of progressive revelation), yet it's still saved through faith and the object of faith for the thief and for us is still Christ.


What was repent and believe the gospel (Mark 1:15) prior to the cross? What did the thief live under? Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life..He who believes in Him is not condemned.. Did the thief believe in Him and receive eternal life? Romans 1:16 states - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. According to your 4 step gospel plan, those who BELIEVE are not saved yet and must accomplish a list of "additional requirements" AFTER they believe in order to become saved.



Through your dispensational progressive revelation argument, Christ is not contradicting Himself. What was revealed to the thief about Christ up to that time? The thief obviously believed in Christ and was saved. Did the thief simply believe that Jesus was the Son of God and would save the world from their sins, but just didn't understand the whole story on how he would do that up to that time? What works did he accomplish after he believed that supposedly saved him as well?



Repentance actually precedes saving belief in Christ. Through poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you reverse the order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation. To the contrary we find: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel (not believe the gospel then afterwards repent). Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust exclusively in Him for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust exclusively in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

In Mark 16:16, He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. Continue to meditate on Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 15:8-9.

AT Roberson was wrong about the Greek word 'eis' for he allowed his theological bias get in the way of scholarship.

Mt 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
Roberson had no problem understand eis means "in order to obtain" in Mt 26:28 for he understood the impossibility he would create by trying to make it mean "because". So Roberson changed the meaning of eis as he needed to make it conveniently fit his theology.



The Pharisees by rejecting John's baptism was rejecting GOD's COUNSEL as the the same would be true of those that reject Christ's baptism of His great commission, Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16.


Luke's account gives information that by the knowledge the thief had of Christ he was once possibly a disciple himself that fell away. I am not saying the thief was for certain a disciple but the knowledge he had can make it POSSIBLE that he once was. The bible does not say with any certainty if the thief was ever a disciple or not, so all anyone can do is make assumptions about it as you are.

Those in Jn 6:66 "walked with Him no more". This does not mean the thief was once a disciple that fell away, but now finding himself in his condemned state next to his former Master repent of his sins and Jesus forgave them for he had the power while on earth to do so.

The thief:
1) was not living under the NT gospel, Heb 9:16,17, but under the OT law
2) at the time of the thief Christ was still ON EARTH perosnally forgiving sins

Two reasons no one today can claim they are saved in the same manner as the the thief.
Today under the NT the gospel is God's power to save and who today can be saved as the thief OUTSIDE- WITHOUT the gospel? No one.

Christ's NT clearly makes belief in the resurrection, repentance, Lk 13:3,5; confession, Mt 10:32,33 and baptism necessary for salvation. This does not contradict the issue with the thief for again the thief was not under the NT that requires these things.

MK 16:16 is a compound sentence with different subjects:
Mk 16a the subject is salvation with two necessary conditions; belief AND baptism
Mk 16b is about condemnation with one condition to be met, unbelief.

So if one desires to be saved then he looks to 16a and believes and be baptized.
If one desires to be lost then he looks to 16b and simply does not believe. He does not have to not believe and not be baptized to be lost, simple unbelief will do it.

Since Jesus made belief a prerequisite to being baptized then an unbeliever cannot be baptized. So when Christ said "he that believeth not" this phrase includes not being baptized since the unbeliever cannot be baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Saved unto/for good works, NOT by good works. You have it backwards.



I agree that if someone claims to be a Christian but never does any good works then he was never converted. Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate there is no root.



These good works are a necessity to demonstrate that one is a Christian, not to become a Christian. Salvation is neither attained or maintained by good works. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. So how many good works does it take to remain a faithful Christian? Are you taking inventory? Is your faith in your works and not exclusively in Christ for salvation?



These good works that God ordained that Christians walk in are what we are saved FOR and not by. Paul never said that we are saved by good works. He said not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us. Works of righteousness are good works, so "does not work" are (any works that we add to salvation through faith) and the alternative is "believes on Him who justifies the ungodly."



No contradiction at all. If Paul meant to include certain types of works "in addition to" believes on Him in Romans 4:5, then he certainly would have listed them. Paul said "works" and James said "works." In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" that God has ordained believers to walk in yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). You can't detach good works from the moral aspect of the law, so the "saved by good works, just not specific works of the law" argument is bogus.

Jesus here emphasizes the need to keep His commandments as evidence of the believer's love for Him. True saving faith is manifest by works produced by God in the transforming, regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Those works are expressions of the love in which the Holy Spirit pours into the believer's heart (Romans 5:5). Do you believe that "keep" His commandments means sinless perfect obedience to ALL of His commandments? The word "keep" comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. Are you taking inventory of how many commandments you believe that you have kept and are trusting in that to merit eternal life?



Paul is excluding any works that "add" to salvation through faith. Obedient works which follow saving faith in Christ are still works and we are not saved by works. It's not impossible to love Christ as a believer. 1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us. Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Your arguments are based in faulty human logic, not in scripture.

Obey Him does not equate to salvation by works here. Do you believe that the word "obey" here means that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless and perfect? Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness. (1 John 2:3; 3:10). In either sense, believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Unbelievers remain in darkness and do not keep His commandments or practice righteousness because without faith, it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh. In either sense, unbelievers (no matter how religious they think they are, the Pharisees and modern day Pharisees of various false religions and cults for example) do not obey Him.


Building the ark was a demonstration of Noah's faith. If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith and would have drown with the rest of civilization.

The simple, factual points are:
Eph 2:10 one CANNOT be a Christian without doing good works
Jn 14:15 one CANNOT love Christ without obedient works

Therefore Paul was not ruling out these two works in Rom 4:4,5 else he creates contradictions.


Noah built the ark in obedience to God's words but that obedience did not earn the saving of his house. So again, Paul was not ruling out obedient works in Rom 4:4,5.

 

[SeaBass]

Well you're definitely right that Paul and James do not contradict, but I think you've missed what the difference between them is. The key word to focus on is not faith or works, but justification. You can sum up their views of justification by asking the simple question: "before who?" Paul is speaking of justification before God, where as James is speaking of justification of a claim: "If one says he has faith."

This claim we make to have faith is only justified before the world when we have deeds along with it. For with faith comes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It's impossible to believe and not experience drastic change. But the issue here is perspective—justification of a claim spoken of by James and justification before God spoken of by Paul.

But James would agree that we are not justified before God by works, and Paul would agree that our claim to faith is not justified before the world if it is not accompanied by works. For God changes those who believe.

The difference between Paul and James can be summed up:

Paul is saying works without faith cannot save
James is saying faith without works cannot save


Paul and James were not talking about the same type of work. Paul is talking about works of merit in Rom 4:4 and James speaks of obedient works as Abraham did in offering Issac as James says "by works a man is justified".

James plainly says both Abraham and Rahab were justified by works. So if Paul was ruling out ALL works in Rom 4:4 then there is a contradiction between Paul and James. But again, in Rom 4:4 Paul is ruling out works of merit and not obedient works as done by Abraham and Rahab.

The works Paul speaks of in Rom 4:4 would make one's reward of debt and not of grace. Was Abraham trying to earn his justification by his works? Was it God's intent Abraham earn his justification by commanding him to do the work of offering Isaac?

 

[SeaBass]

Christian mean Christ follower. If a man have a faith in Jesus, he will bear the fruit. and the fruit of the Spirit is,

Galatians 5:22-26King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another


That is the result of Faith. Faith in Jesus produce good work.

You tray to say is your good work produce salvation. And I don't believe that.


The problem is we going to find the root of salvation and that is faith not good work.

Good work such as helping the needy is product of faith.


Good work is product not producer It is upside down.

Christianity nor the NT gospel existed at the time of the thief.


So my question remains unanswered: Per Eph 2:10 - Can one who becomes a Christian today NEVER do any good works yet still be saved anyway ?

 

[SeaBass]

I just remember, If the thief not under new testament, than why he not require to do animal sacrifice before Jesus forgive his sin?

THe thief could not be under Christ's NT per Heb 9:16,17. Christ NT could not come into effect until some time AFTER he died yet the thief was promised paradise while both were still alive under the OT law.

Mt 9:6 while Christ was ON EARTH he had the power to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as this thief.

 

[newbirth]

Well you're definitely right that Paul and James do not contradict, but I think you've missed what the difference between them is. The key word to focus on is not faith or works, but justification. You can sum up their views of justification by asking the simple question: "before who?" Paul is speaking of justification before God, where as James is speaking of justification of a claim: "If one says he has faith."

This claim we make to have faith is only justified before the world when we have deeds along with it. For with faith comes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It's impossible to believe and not experience drastic change. But the issue here is perspective—justification of a claim spoken of by James and justification before God spoken of by Paul.

But James would agree that we are not justified before God by works, and Paul would agree that our claim to faith is not justified before the world if it is not accompanied by works. For God changes those who believe.

your comment does not align with the word of God..
James 2:22-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?