In context: Romans 4:4-5

[Alligator]

So you are saying that we are saved through faith AND works? Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation; yet you say that BOTH faith AND works are the root of salvation? It's not legalistic to genuinely obey a command of Christ. It's legalistic when you twist a command of Christ as a means to merit salvation by works. The Pharisees thought they were obeying God, yet they were caught up in legalism, works righteousness/salvation by works.



Where does John say they were fallen Christians? John makes a contrast between two walks. One in darkness and one in the light. Just because John is writing to Christians does not mean that everyone John discusses in the book of John are Christians. Read 1 John 2:19 for example. Notice in 1 John 3:7-10 the contrast between children of God and children of the devil.



Paul was making a strong statement to the Galatians who were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers that justification by faith and justification by the law are mutually exclusive. I didn't hear Paul say some had absolutely fallen from grace, no time to fix the error, you lost your salvation. If that were the case, I find it very strange in verse 10 that Paul would say - "I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is?" You don't have confidence in hopeless cases.


[/quote=mailmandan;1640835]S which kind of works did Paul say we are saved by in (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:9)? Or did he say we are saved through believing in Him/faith? (Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..).

Rom.4:5-6 ur own works, works that we do independently of Christ thinking we are earning our salvation.
Eph. 2:8-9. Same as above
titus 3:5: ditto
Rom. 3:28. Works of the Law.

if these were the only verses in the bible I would have to say all you have to do is believe, no works, nothing else. But when we combine these with other scriptures , (Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, Rom. 10:9-10) then we learn Paul is using "believe" in a more comprehensive and broader way, one that assumes to include baptism, repent, etc.

Let me sum it up this way. The only kind of works that count are those generated out of love and obedience for Christ and our fellow man.

 

[Alligator]

Is faith made up of works? Are works the essence of faith? Should we simply define faith as works? Many people can't seem to separate the root of salvation (faith) from the fruit of salvation (works) which is how people come up with saved by works. The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31).

One final point regarding your first paragraph , no, I still place faith as the root. If you don't have faith, everything else is



Where does John spell out that these were former Christians who went out from us, but were not of us, in 1 John 2:19 and who practice sin and not righteousness and does not love his brother in 1 John 3:8,10? Just because John says "we" does not mean that everyone in a professing group of Christians really is a Christian. John sorts them out.



There cannot be two grounds of salvation, two means of justification, two ways of life. To accept the one means to reject the other. It is either law or grace, either works or faith, either self-righteousness, or the righteousness of God. These Galatians were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers and were in danger of substituting law for Christ as a means of salvation, but was justified by law their final answer?



I'll be waiting for that answer.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE=mailmandan;1640318]

One last thing regarding your first paragraph,

 

[mailmandan]

Rom.4:5-6 ur own works, works that we do independently of Christ thinking we are earning our salvation.

Those who have been saved through faith and not by works, are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Are you saying these good works that believers do not independently of Christ earn salvation? So how many good works does it take?

Eph. 2:8-9. Same as above

Did Paul say saved through faith and good works, just not works done independently of Christ in Ephesians 2:8,9? No. Paul simply said works and James simply said works.

titus 3:5: ditto

Works of righteousness are done independently of Christ? What about works of unrighteousness? In Acts 10:35, Peter said - But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Are these works of righteousness in Acts 10:35 done independently of Christ? See how your argument falls apart here? Your argument, that you learned in the church of Christ, is the same argument that Roman Catholics and Mormons use as well in an attempt to get around the truth.

Rom. 3:28. Works of the Law.

Which includes the moral aspect of the Law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of righteousness" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

if these were the only verses in the bible I would have to say all you have to do is believe, no works, nothing else. But when we combine these with other scriptures, (Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, Rom. 10:9-10) then we learn Paul is using "believe" in a more comprehensive and broader way, one that assumes to include baptism, repent, etc.

You mean when you distort these passages of scripture and then patch them together to create a "different" gospel. The plan of salvation is not believe + repent + confess + get baptized then finally saved. Mere mental assent belief + self reformation + lips service confession + dipped in H20 is not the plan of salvation. For starters, you reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe in receiving salvation. To the contrary we find the following verses:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. *Notice the order.

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. A person cannot believe "trust exclusively in Christ for salvation" without repenting "changing their mind" about their sinful position and complete need for Christ to save them along with a change of mind about any form of self-trust in works, good deeds, religious tradition, etc. followed by trusting exclusively in Christ's for salvation Who alone is the all sufficient means of our salvation.

Since you place repentance "after" believe, you would have to admit then that you have a belief that is no different from the belief of devils (James 2;19), and others who believed the facts about Christ "intellectually." The only difference is you "add your works." You cannot seem to grasp (and there is a reason for that) a DEEPER belief/faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

In regards to Romans 10:9-10, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead is not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confesses is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. It's not believe today and finally confess next week. Notice "believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation" is BEFORE water baptism in your 4 step patched together check list.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps is not unto salvation.

I already explained Acts 2:38 to you numerous times and even harmonized it with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9: 16:31 yet you stubbornly refuse to harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion. The New Testament makes it clear that man is saved prior to receiving water baptism. Cornelius’s family received the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the gifts of the Spirit after believing the gospel but before being baptized (Acts 10:44-47). Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for Cornelius’s family; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ (Acts 10:43). Baptism is done in response to believing the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17).

There are a number of prooftexts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is necessarily prerequisite for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation.
In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation. NOWHERE does the Bible say that whoever is NOT baptized will NOT be saved.

Surely, if water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who simply BELIEVE.. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13;39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Notice in Acts 11:17 that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ yet BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). Believing is not baptism and believing precedes baptism and we are saved through believing in Him. Water baptism is done afterwards, in response to believing in Him. Salvation is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism.

Let me sum it up this way. The only kind of works that count are those generated out of love and obedience for Christ and our fellow man.

These are good works that believers are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:10) and NOT by (Ephesians 2:8,9). These good works are the fruit of salvation and believers will receive rewards based on their works (1 Corinthians 3:13-15), but salvation is based on faith, not works. Are you ready to REPENT "change your mind" and BELIEVE the gospel?

 

[mailmandan]

One final point regarding your first paragraph, no, I still place faith as the root. If you don't have faith, everything else is

If we don't have faith, then everything else is futile, because without faith it's impossible to please God, yet we need to know exactly what saving faith is (the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen) and not confuse it with the fruit of saving faith, good works.

 

[homwardbound]

Rom.4:5-6 ur own works, works that we do independently of Christ thinking we are earning our salvation.
Eph. 2:8-9. Same as above
titus 3:5: ditto
Rom. 3:28. Works of the Law.

if these were the only verses in the bible I would have to say all you have to do is believe, no works, nothing else. But when we combine these with other scriptures , (Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, Rom. 10:9-10) then we learn Paul is using "believe" in a more comprehensive and broader way, one that assumes to include baptism, repent, etc.

Let me sum it up this way. The only kind of works that count are those generated out of love and obedience for Christ and our fellow man.

So works are a by-product of Faith in Christ, and if no works, no fruit to show, yet it is bottom line God who knows and God who saves right? even if man showed no works to you or anyone else that others no not of right?

 

[SeaBass]

I don't teach salvation by "faith only" (empty profession of faith) - James - I teach salvation through faith, not works - Paul. Show me the works that Paul mentions "in addition" to "believes in Him" that Paul says are accounted to us for righteousness and also show me where Paul said that God imputes righteousness based on works in Romans 4:4-6. Put down your shoe horn and read it again.

Amen!

Out of faith Noah built the ark, but Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. Was Noah without faith until he built the ark? No. Building the ark was a demonstration of his faith.



Saved them physically from drowning. Was Noah and his family saved eternally based on one act of obedience by Noah building an ark? His house needed no faith then, right? Because Noah saved them all eternally by one act of obedience by building the ark? No.



His eternal salvation was not based on building an ark and neither was the eternal salvation of his house either. Salvation has always been through FAITH. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of salvation.



And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace (Romans 11:6). His physical saving and the physical preservation of his house required Noah to build an ark. If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith and he and his house would have drown.



Paul certainly was. Paul said not by works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works. Obedient works are still WORKS. You are making the same argument that Roman Catholics and Mormons make about Romans 4:4 in an effort to "get around" the truth (wiggle, wiggle) and support your works based false gospel.


How do people who are already saved through faith earn their salvation by working righteousness? They don't. Genuine believers are not looking to be saved by works, only self righteous unbelievers who are deceived into thinking they are believers. Where did Paul say that we are saved by works of righteousness? To the contrary, he said just the opposite in Titus 3:5. It's you who is trying to wiggle around the truth. How long will you refuse to repent and believe the gospel?



Works of righteousness are not the means of our salvation. No wiggling, it is what it is (Titus 3:5). Please explain to me how unrighteous people perform genuine works of righteousness? Does a bad tree produce good fruit?



Working unrighteousness is the fruit of unbelief, not saved. You continue to confuse the root of salvation with the fruit. If works of righteousness were the basis by which we received eternal salvation then we would earn salvation at least in part. What works of obedience does Paul add to "believing in Him" in Romans 4:4? He doesn't. You do! Eternal life/Salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8), not a reward. A reward is something that you work for and earn.



Here is your confusion. They did not earn salvation by working righteousness because working righteousness is not the means of our salvation (Titus 3:5), but it is the fruit of faith. Working unrighteousness is the fruit of unbelief. Quit trying to earn your way to heaven by works and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.



Setting out to attain salvation based on works is not obeying God and is trying to earn salvation. Just look at these many people in Matthew 7:22. What were they trusting in for salvation? Their WORKS. What did Jesus tell them in vs. 23? I NEVER knew you! Salvation is a gift that is received by grace through faith, not works. When will you BELIEVE?



We obey unto salvation by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Refusing to believe the gospel is to disobey the gospel and be lost (2 Thessalonians 1:8).



Trying to earn salvation by works is not obeying God. Why wouldn't God give us commands to obey after we have been saved through faith? There is work to be done for the kingdom out of gratitude and love for the Lord BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved. Is your only motivation to do anything is because you believe it will save you? If it can't save you then why do it at all? Do you only help people out because you expect something in return? Every single command in the Bible is a prerequisite for salvation? Have you lived a sinless, without fault of defect, flawless perfect life?


There is a difference between the command to believe and be saved and multiple commands for us after we have been saved through faith. Are we saved through faith or imperfect obedience?



I only see a problem with your biased theology.



Amen! Let me guess. The truth here went right over your head?



*Problem - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23); For the wages of sin is death, *solution - but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Not through works. So you are trying to draw a line in the sand and figure out how much obedience it takes to save you and how much disobedience it takes you from not getting saved. See your confusion? How could you ever know for sure (1 John 5:13) that you were saved based on that logic. You couldn't.



Contradiction. God's grace is what saves a Christian but grace requires the condition to do good works? Condition for what? To become saved by good works? No! We are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. See how you continually depend on works for salvation? You just can't let go of works and take hold of Christ through faith.



It makes his salvation of debt, and not of grace, if these works are the means of salvation. Grace through faith, not works.



That is an oxymoron. All Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. There is no such thing as a genuine Christian who does absolutely no good works. That's a dead faith, not a living faith that has been made alive in Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-9). And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace.. (Romans 11:6). Crystal clear.

Salvation by grace through faith and salvation by works are mutually exclusive.



It's you who is doing all the wiggling. Obedience to God after we have been saved through faith is WORKS and makes salvation of debt and not of grace. If works are the basis of salvation then there is merit in these works. You can't have it both ways!

The point of this is that a servant should expect no special reward for doing what was his duty in the first place, not that we are saved by unmerited works after faith.



BECAUSE he is saved, not to become saved.



Obedience is a manifestation of belief and disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief. Salvation by works is disobedience.



None of us are sinless and perfect, so our obedience is not without fault or defect, flawless. Works do not earn salvation and they are not the means of our salvation. Works are the fruit, but never the root of salvation. We all need God's grace to save us. We need a Savior and He is Jesus Christ. Praise God!

Again, in a long post as this you never prove obedience was part of the works of Rom 4:4. Because Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord did not mean he would be saved if he did not build the ark. Heb 11:7 ".... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;"

So was Noah's obedience in the "saving of his house" trying to earn that saving? No. For God's grace in saving Noah including the condition that Noah work to build the ark. SO Noah's obedience work earned him nothing therefore elimination obedient works from Rom 4:4.

Paul then in Rom 4:5 is contrasting "works of merit" in verse 4 to "believing". Jn 3:36 ASV believing is obedience. So Paul is contrasting works of merit to obedient works in Rom 4:4,5 and not eliminating obedient works as faith only advocate grossly misinterpret this passage.

So one does not obey/do righteousness because he is already saved but must obey/do righteousness to become saved...John said he that doth NOT righteousness is NOT of God. You try and reverse this by having one of God BEFORE he does righteousness..which is biblically impossible. ! jn 3:10 the verb "doeth " is present tense denoting one do righteousness to be of God and CONTINUE to do righteousness to be of God.

 

[homwardbound]

In the context of Rom 4:4 the one who "worketh" is the one is trying to keep God's law flawlessly, perfectly, he is an obedient man in trying to gain acceptance with God.

This means the "non-worker", the one who has no works is being totally, entirely, completely disobedient to God, a law-breaker, one who can never gain acceptance with God, never be justified in his "non-works".

Acts 10:43Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

[h=3]Acts 10:34-43 (PHILLIPS) | In Context | Whole Chapter[/h]
[h=3]Peter’s momentous discovery[/h][SUP]34-43 [/SUP]Then Peter began to speak, “In solemn truth I can see now that God is no respecter of persons, but that in every nation the man who reverences him and does what is right is acceptable to him! He has sent his message to the sons of Israel by giving us the good news of peace through Jesus Christ—he is the Lord of us all. You must know the story of Jesus of Nazareth—why, it has spread through the whole of Judea, beginning with Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed. You must have heard how God anointed him with the power of the Holy Spirit, of how he went about doing good and healing all who suffered from the devil’s power—because God was with him. Now we are eye-witnesses of everything that he did, both in the Judean country and in Jerusalem itself, and yet they murdered him by hanging him on a cross. But on the third day God raised that same Jesus and let him be clearly seen, not indeed by the whole people, but by witnesses whom God had previously chosen. We are those witnesses, we who ate and drank with him after he had risen from the dead! Moreover, we are the men whom he commanded to preach to the people and bear fearless witness to the fact that he is the one appointed by God to be the judge of both the living and the dead. It is to him that all the prophets bear witness, that every man who believes in him may receive forgiveness of sins through his name.”

 

[homwardbound]

so if one is or has not received this forgiveness as complete from Christ at the cross, his death for us, how can one walk in new life in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ? being too busy as in watching what they do or not do, forsaking the Faith in Christ that it is finished
Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Walk ye in Spirit of truth with Father through Son you think, and you won't fill the lusts of the flesh you think?

 

[SeaBass]

Acts 10:43Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:34-43 (PHILLIPS) | In Context | Whole Chapter


Peter’s momentous discovery

[SUP]34-43 [/SUP]Then Peter began to speak, “In solemn truth I can see now that God is no respecter of persons, but that in every nation the man who reverences him and does what is right is acceptable to him! He has sent his message to the sons of Israel by giving us the good news of peace through Jesus Christ—he is the Lord of us all. You must know the story of Jesus of Nazareth—why, it has spread through the whole of Judea, beginning with Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed. You must have heard how God anointed him with the power of the Holy Spirit, of how he went about doing good and healing all who suffered from the devil’s power—because God was with him. Now we are eye-witnesses of everything that he did, both in the Judean country and in Jerusalem itself, and yet they murdered him by hanging him on a cross. But on the third day God raised that same Jesus and let him be clearly seen, not indeed by the whole people, but by witnesses whom God had previously chosen. We are those witnesses, we who ate and drank with him after he had risen from the dead! Moreover, we are the men whom he commanded to preach to the people and bear fearless witness to the fact that he is the one appointed by God to be the judge of both the living and the dead. It is to him that all the prophets bear witness, that every man who believes in him may receive forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Belief is obedience, Jn 3:36. Peter NEVER said to believe only for belief only is dead and not obedience.

Acts 10:43---------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
Acts 2:38---------be baptized>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Since there is just one way to be saved/have sins remitted, then that can only mean that belief includes baptism and why Peter commanded water baptism to the Gentiles Acts 10:47,48.

 

[Elin]

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since
we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then
the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing.

You are misunderstanding Paul, because he does not use "works" in the way it is used in Jn 6:27-29.

Paul uses "works" exclusively to mean works of obedience to the law, he never uses it of saving faith.

Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "

not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4
Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned
and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing".

You misunderstand Paul's usage of "works."

(Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God
in Rom 10:3).

No, he does not.

"The righteousness that comes from God" and "God's righteousness,"
to which the Israelites did not submit n Ro 10:3, is a free gift (Ro 5:17) of grace.
It is justification, a declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which removes God's wrath on one's guilt.

The Israelites sought to establish their own righteousness based on obedience to the law.
They would not submit to God's free gift of righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified.
So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

You misunderstand James, as well as Paul.

The issue with James is dead faith, counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23; Lk 8:13).

"Faith without deeds is dead. . (Abraham's) faith and his actions were working together,
and his faith was made complete by what he did." (Jas 2:20, 22)

Righteous action is evidence of genuine faith--it does not save, for the verse (Ge 15:6) that James cites in 2:23
to prove his point says
"Abraham believed the Lord, and he credited it (i.e., faith, not works) to him as righteousness."

Likewise, Abraham's act of faith in Ge 15:6 occurred before, and was credited as righteousness before
he offered up Isaac.
Offering Isaac was simply a proof of the genuineness of his pre-existing faith. Saving faith results in obedience.

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love." (Gal 5:6)

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other,

Right, but your misunderstanding of both of them makes them contradictory.

it becomes apparent that the works
Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works
James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.

You have scrambled this NT doctrine very thoroughly.

So when one takes "

worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then
they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create
a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified
and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

It is you who create all the contradictions with your misunderstanding of both Paul and James.

 

[SeaBass]

You are misunderstanding Paul, because he does not use "works" in the way it is used in Jn 6:27-29.

Paul uses "works" exclusively to mean works of obedience to the law, he never uses it of saving faith.

You misunderstand Paul's usage of "works."


No, he does not.

"The righteousness that comes from God" and "God's righteousness,"
to which the Israelites did not submit n Ro 10:3, is a free gift (Ro 5:17) of grace.
It is justification, a declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which removes God's wrath on one's guilt.

The Israelites sought to establish their own righteousness based on obedience to the law.
They would not submit to God's free gift of righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.

You misunderstand James, as well as Paul.

The issue with James is dead faith, counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23; Lk 8:13).

"Faith without deeds is dead. . (Abraham's) faith and his actions were working together,
and his faith was made complete by what he did." (Jas 2:20, 22)

Righteous action is evidence of genuine faith--it does not save, for the verse (Ge 15:6) that James cites in 2:23
to prove his point says
"Abraham believed the Lord, and he credited it (i.e., faith, not works) to him as righteousness."

Likewise, Abraham's act of faith in Ge 15:6 occurred before, and was credited as righteousness before
he offered up Isaac.
Offering Isaac was simply a proof of the genuineness of his pre-existing faith. Saving faith results in obedience.

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love." (Gal 5:6)


Right, but your misunderstanding of both of them makes them contradictory.


You have scrambled this NT doctrine very thoroughly.


It is you who create all the contradictions with your misunderstanding of both Paul and James.

In Jn 6:27-29 belief is called a work yet this work is NOT the work Paul is talking about in Rom 4:4.

What type of work would make one's reward of debt and not of grace, Rom 4:4? Works of merit for if one worked and kept God's law flawlessly then he would be sinless and would not need grace, so his reward would be of debt. Obedient works, as believing, cannot make one's reward of debt and not of grace. So Paul could not be excluding obedient works in the context of Rom 4:4,5. Also in Rom 6 Paul said "obedience unto righteousness" and put obeying BEOFRE justifying/free from sin.

And Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and obedience in Rom 10:3:

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"


Paul contrasts works:
1) going about to establish THEIR OWN righteousness - works of merit
2) submit/obey the righteousness/commands of God - obedience

Paul says the Jews were lost for they went bout trying to earn their salvation instead of submitting/obeying God's commands.

Abraham was justified by works, yet those obedient works Abraham did could not merit his salvation for Abraham sinned. HIs sinning therefore made grace necessary where his reward could not be of debt. So again, Paul could not be talking about obedience in Rom 4:4.

By trying to wrongly eliminate all works in Rom 4:4 the faith only crowd put man in an impossible position.
When God gives commands and man obeys that command, faith only advocates say he is trying to earn salvation. Yet not obeying God's commands is sin/unrighteous that causes one to be lost. So what's a man to do?

 

[Elin]

In Jn 6:27-29 belief is called a work yet this work is NOT the work Paul is talking about in Ro 4:4.

Paul never, I repeat NEVER, links salvation to any kind of work. . .of merit. . .of obedience. . .or whatever.
That is your own invention.

Looks like it's time to take a look at Jn 6:27-29:

"'Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life,
which the Son of Man will give you.'
Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?'
Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.' "

They missed the point that eternal life is Christ's gift and
were thinking in terms of achieving it by pious works or deeds.
So in their misunderstanding, they framed their question in terms of "works."

You misunderstand what Jesus is saying here, just as they did.

Jesus answered them in the terms of their question--"works,"
that believing in Jesus Christ is the indispensable "work" God calls for--the one
that leads to eternal life.

Jesus is talking about an internal choice, not about external deeds or actions.
External deeds or actions are the result of the internal choice, they flow from the choice,
but they are not the choice itself.
The internal choice is not an external work.
"Works" was their word, used in misunderstanding of what Jesus was saying.

So Paul could not be excluding obedient works in the context of Rom 4:4,5.

Paul never makes a distinction between "works of merit" which do not save
and "obedient works" which do save.

It is your own unBiblical notion that puts "works" in Paul's revelation from Jesus Christ.

Also in Rom 6 Paul said "obedience unto righteousness" and put obeying BEOFRE justifying/free from sin.

First of all, "justification" is God's declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ.
It does not mean holiness, nor free from sin.
There is no change of character at justification.
It is only a change of position, a change of standing before God, to "not guilty."
Now hold that thought for a while. . .

Secondly, while Paul never uses "works" to mean anything but obedience to God's law,
he does use "righteousness" to mean two different things.

1) righteousness = justification--God's declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which saves from God's wrath on one's guilt (Ro 5:1, 9, 16, etc., etc., etc.).

2) righteousness = holiness/godliness--the process of sanctification through faithful obedience
to Jesus Christ (Ro 6:13, 19; Php 1:11, etc., etc., etc.), which is the result of
God's gift of righteousness = justification (Ro 5:17).

And now back to the thought we are holding--there is no change of character at justification.

Paul is not saying obedience-->holiness (righteousness)-->justification (free from sin)
because justification is not freedom from sin, it is simply a declarion of "not guilty."

Rather, Paul is saying that obedience-->holiness (righteousness) which is freedom from sin.
The subject of Ro 6:16-18 is not "1) righteousness = justification," justification is not spoken of at all.
Rather, the subject of Ro 6:16-18 is only "2) righteousness = holiness."

There is no link between obedience and justification in Ro 6:16-18, or anywhere in Paul.
Justification is by faith only in Paul.

And Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and obedience in Rom 10:3:

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

Paul contrasts works:
1) going about to establish THEIR OWN righteousness - works of merit
2) submit/obey the righteousness/commands of God - obedience

Paul says the Jews were lost for they went bout trying to earn their salvation instead of submitting/obeying God's commands.

No, he does not.

"The righteousness that comes from God" and "God's righteousness,"
to which the Israelites did not submit in Ro 10:3, is a free gift (Ro 5:17) of grace.
It is justification, a declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which removes God's wrath on one's guilt.

The Israelites sought to establish their own righteousness based on obedience to the law.
They would not submit to God's free gift of righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.

By trying to wrongly eliminate all works in Rom 4:4 the faith only crowd put man in an impossible position.
When God gives commands and man obeys that command, faith only advocates say he is trying to earn salvation.
Yet not obeying God's commands is sin/unrighteous that causes one to be lost.

Because habitual disobedience shows one does not have true saving faith,
one has only a counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23; Lk 8:13).
They are lost because of their lack of faith, not because of their lack of works.

So what's a man to do?

Start with believing Ro 9:30:

"The Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it,
a righteousness that is by faith;
while Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness (God's commands),
has not attained it. Why not?
Because they pursued it not by faith, but as it were by works."

And then believe Ro 1:17:

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith,
from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.' "

You have created your own dilemma by your misunderstanding of "works."

And the man-made solution you have devised to your self-made dilemma
is totally contrary to the NT, and only further compounds the dilemma, according to the NT.

 

[Atwood]

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Paul speaks of being justified by faith apart from any works.
James speaks of both the above & of good works done after salvation which do not save but declare righteous.

The scripture is crystal clear: Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.
Faith is not a work, but the polar opposite of a work. Faith is resting in the Lord.

The unsaved man can only become saved by trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior. When he does that He is justified only by faith. God declares Him righteous at that point. Justification is by faith, not works at that point. James also recognizes how Abe believed God & it was reckoned to Abe for righteousness.

That justification of Abe happened early in the Bible story. Abe was saved and in Gen 12 given the great promises of the Abrahamic Covenant freely. At that point Abe was justified by faith. A number of years later, long after Abe was saved, he offered up Isaac and that good work declared that he was righteous. With regard to salvation, justification is by faith alone, apart from works.
After a man is saved & transformed, then enabled to do good works, his good works declare that he is righteous; thus works done after salvation do justify in the sense of declaring righteous. But works never save!

Faith is resting in the Savior, who invites those who labor & are heavy laden to come to Him for rest.

Heb. 3:
And said, They do always err in their heart:
But they did not know my ways;
11 As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest.


Heb. 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief,


Heb. 3:16
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.


Heb. 4:1
Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. 3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.




Heb. 4:8
For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

To enter the rest, you must obey this command:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus [Christ], and you shall be saved."

 

[Atwood]

In Jn 6:27-29 belief is called a work yet this work is NOT the work Paul

False. belief is not called a work of man in John 6.

 

[Atwood]

And Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and obedience in Rom 10:3:

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

The word "work" doesn't occur in the verse, neither does merit or obedience. This is a flight of fancy.
Claiming that one is saved by works is an attempt to establish one's own righteousness. Trusting the Lord Jesus means that one is declared righteous by God on the basis of faith. One is righteous if one is identified with the Lord Jesus, who is righteous (Romans 5).

2) submit/obey the righteousness/commands of God - obedience

Cease from imposing things on the text, Seabass.
The text says "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" -- the text does not say "submit/obey the righteousness/commands of God - obedience"; that is your heretical creation.
The righteousness of God is a gift from God, a declaration based on a man's trust in the Savior and man's identification with the Savior.

All works are obedient works. There is no other class of good works.

Abraham was justified by works, yet those obedient works Abraham did could not merit his salvation for Abraham sinned.

Abraham was justified apart from any works, just for believing. The work of offering up Isaac did get the declaration that Abe was righteous, but they did not save. Abe was saved long before that incident.

By trying to wrongly eliminate all works in Rom 4:4 the faith only crowd put man in an impossible position.
When God gives commands and man obeys that command, faith only advocates say he is trying to earn salvation. Yet not obeying God's commands is sin/unrighteous that causes one to be lost. So what's a man to do?

We don't "try to eliminate works" from salvation -- God has done it -- not just trying. "Not of works" lest anyone should boast." The only impossible situation of man is trying to be justified by good works, for the unsaved man has no good works. The only thing he is to do is to obey this commandment:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

 

[homwardbound]

Belief is obedience, Jn 3:36. Peter NEVER said to believe only for belief only is dead and not obedience.

Acts 10:43---------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
Acts 2:38---------be baptized>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Since there is just one way to be saved/have sins remitted, then that can only mean that belief includes baptism and why Peter commanded water baptism to the Gentiles Acts 10:47,48.

I am so sorry you just do not see what I see, and refute everything I ever state as a view from where I am sitting at in the stadium watching the game and have over the years changed seats to see from a different angle to this flesh game of I am right and you are wrong, when God is the only righteous one right? So do we agree on this the God is the only one righteous ever? So I have decided to participate, and put on his armor to be safe in God, trusting in God for God's righteousness to work through me in Love to all, are we in agreement to this?

 

[mailmandan]

Again, in a long post as this you never prove obedience was part of the works of Rom 4:4.

Actually I did but unfortunately, you just don't have eyes to see. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Obedience which follows is works. Until you repent and believe the gospel, all you have is a perverted gospel of salvation by works. You still have not shown me the obedience/works that Paul mentions "in addition" to "believes in Him" that Paul says are accounted to us for righteousness or where Paul said that God imputes righteousness based on works in Romans 4:4-6.

Because Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord did not mean he would be saved if he did not build the ark.

If Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a preacher of righteousness BEFORE he built the ark, what does that tell you about his salvation status? We have access by faith into grace and are saved and justified by faith (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1-2). If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith. Just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6) many years BEFORE he set out to sacrifice Isaac which demonstrated that his faith was genuine, but Abraham was already saved prior to Genesis 22. If he would have refused to sacrifice Isaac, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith. You just can't seem to grasp this.

Heb 11:7 ".... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;"

Did building the ark cause Noah to find grace in the eyes of the Lord or had Noah already found grace in the eyes of the Lord? Did building the ark cause Noah to become a preacher of righteousness or was he already a preacher of righteousness? Did building the ark eternally save Noah or was he already eternally saved and the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning in the flood? Do lost people or saved people find grace in the eyes of the Lord? Are unrighteous or righteous people preachers of righteousness? Are we saved by grace through faith or by building an ark?

So was Noah's obedience in the "saving of his house" trying to earn that saving? No. For God's grace in saving Noah including the condition that Noah work to build the ark. SO Noah's obedience work earned him nothing therefore elimination obedient works from Rom 4:4.

Noah was already eternally saved through faith "he had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord" and building the ark was a demonstration of his faith "not the origin of it" that saved him and his house physically from drowning. Noah's obedience was not the basis by which he received eternal life and if it was, then Noah would have earned his salvation based on his obedient works, which are very much included in Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. (It took a lot of hard work to build that ark!) 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: *Crystal clear.

Paul then in Rom 4:5 is contrasting "works of merit" in verse 4 to "believing".

So where are the works of obedience included with believing (that you keep trying to shoe into believing) that Paul forgot to mention in Romans 4:5? You continue to misunderstand Paul's usage of works.

Jn 3:36 ASV believing is obedience.

"Obey the Son" (John 3:36 ASV) does not mean do extra works of obedience "in addition" to believing on Him in order receive eternal life, but obey the Son by choosing to believe on Him. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes "and" obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To believe on the Son is to obey Him and to disbelieve the Son is to disobey Him. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing on the Son.

Just as we read in Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16). Refusing to obey the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing the gospel. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel?

In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself, or getting circumcised or baptized, or in religious tradition, or any other type of good works/deeds. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else", otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON" but also in something else. We must believe/trust/rely exclusively in Christ to receive eternal life. Trusting in works disqualifies believing in Christ.

So Paul is contrasting works of merit to obedient works in Rom 4:4,5 and not eliminating obedient works as faith only advocate grossly misinterpret this passage.

Again, where are these "obedient works" mentioned in Romans 4:4-5 that Paul is contrasting to works of merit? You are making a distinction without a difference. Paul is contrasting works in general to believing in Him in Romans 4:4-5 and is not adding works of any kind to "faith accounted for righteousness" as works salvationist advocates grossly misinterpret this passage. It's tragic that human pride will not allow works salvationists to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

So one does not obey/do righteousness because he is already saved but must obey/do righteousness to become saved...John said he that doth NOT righteousness is NOT of God.

So you have lost unbelievers doing works of righteousness? Please explain to me how a bad tree produces good fruit? 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. So that means children of God practice righteousness because they are already children of God/saved, not to become children of God/saved.

You try and reverse this by having one of God BEFORE he does righteousness..which is biblically impossible.

It's actually YOU who has reversed the order by having children of the devil practicing righteousness before they become children of God...which is Biblically impossible. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

! jn 3:10 the verb "doeth " is present tense denoting one do righteousness to be of God and CONTINUE to do righteousness to be of God.

Believers don't practice righteousness in order to become of God, but because they are of God. In this the children of God are (present tense) manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth (present tense) not righteousness is (present tense) not of God, neither he that loveth (present tense) not his brother. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin and those who are of the devil practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:7-10). So I see that you not only believe that salvation is "attained" by works but you also believe that it's "maintained" by works as well. What a mess! WHEN WILL YOU BELIEVE?

 

[Alligator]

Rom.4:5-6 ur own works, works that we do independently of Christ thinking we are earning our salvation.
Eph. 2:8-9. Same as above
titus 3:5: ditto
Rom. 3:28. Works of the Law.

if these were the only verses in the bible I would have to say all you have to do is believe, no works, nothing else. But when we combine these with other scriptures , (Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, Rom. 10:9-10) then we learn Paul is using "believe" in a more comprehensive and broader way, one that assumes to include baptism, repent, etc.

Let me sum it up this way. The only kind of works that count are those generated out of love and obedience for Christ and our fellow man.

Those who have been saved through faith and not by works, are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Are you saying these good works that believers do not independently of Christ earn salvation? So how many good works does it take?

how many times do I have to repeat this for you? NO MATTER HOW MANY WORKS WE PERFORM, WE CAN NEVER EARN EVEN A SMALL PORTION OF OUR SALVATION.


Works of righteousness are done independently of Christ? What about works of unrighteousness? In Acts 10:35, Peter said - But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Are these works of righteousness in Acts 10:35 done independently of Christ? See how your argument falls apart here? Your argument, that you learned in the church of Christ, is the same argument that Roman Catholics and Mormons use as well in an attempt to get around the truth[/quote]

I Have answered this already so I'm not going to repost it. That is not what I'm saying and no my argument does not fall apart although you would like it too.[/quote]



Which includes the moral aspect of the Law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of righteousness" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).



You mean when you distort these passages of scripture and then patch them together to create a "different" gospel. The plan of salvation is not believe + repent + confess + get baptized then finally saved. Mere mental assent belief + self reformation + lips service confession + dipped in H20 is not the plan of salvation. For starters, you reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe in receiving salvation. To the contrary we find the following verses:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. *Notice the order.

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. A person cannot believe "trust exclusively in Christ for salvation" without repenting "changing their mind" about their sinful position and complete need for Christ to save them along with a change of mind about any form of self-trust in works, good deeds, religious tradition, etc. followed by trusting exclusively in Christ's for salvation Who alone is the all sufficient means of our salvation.

Since you place repentance "after" believe, you would have to admit then that you have a belief that is no different from the belief of devils (James 2;19), and others who believed the facts about Christ "intellectually." The only difference is you "add your works." You cannot seem to grasp (and there is a reason for that) a DEEPER belief/faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."
.
In regards to Romans 10:9-10, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead is not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confesses is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. It's not believe today and finally confess next week. Notice "believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation" is BEFORE water baptism in your 4 step patched together check list.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps is not unto salvation.

I already explained Acts 2:38 to you numerous times and even harmonized it with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9: 16:31 yet you stubbornly refuse to harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion. The New Testament makes it clear that man is saved prior to receiving water baptism. Cornelius’s family received the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the gifts of the Spirit after believing the gospel but before being baptized (Acts 10:44-47). Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for Cornelius’s family; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ (Acts 10:43). Baptism is done in response to believing the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17).

There are a number of prooftexts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is necessarily prerequisite for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation.
In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation. NOWHERE does the Bible say that whoever is NOT baptized will NOT be saved.

Surely, if water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who simply BELIEVE.. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13;39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Notice in Acts 11:17 that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ yet BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). Believing is not baptism and believing precedes baptism and we are saved through believing in Him. Water baptism is done afterwards, in response to believing in Him. Salvation is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism.



These are good works that believers are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:10) and NOT by (Ephesians 2:8,9). These good works are the fruit of salvation and believers will receive rewards based on their works (1 Corinthians 3:13-15), but salvation is based on faith, not works. Are you ready to REPENT "change your mind" and BELIEVE the gospel?[/QUOTE]

after looking the rest of this over, I see that I have answered practically all of it more than once so I'm not going to do it again. Your " cute" remarks about the plan of salvation, the remarks in this post about this at this matter and other things prove to me that you have no interest in discussing this. Youjust want to promote yourself and win an argument. I'm tired of it
I'm going to move over something else. As far as your silly argument about repentance coming before safe, I've already told you that he was speaking to the Jews who already believed in God, they just needed to believe in Christ and his gospel.

and by the way, all the things you accuse me of, I suggest you spend some time tonight in front of the mirror.

 

[mailmandan]

how many times do I have to repeat this for you? NO MATTER HOW MANY WORKS WE PERFORM, WE CAN NEVER EARN EVEN A SMALL PORTION OF OUR SALVATION.

Very true, yet you still place works between saved by grace through faith. Any works that we add to faith in Christ as the basis for receiving eternal life merit our salvation even if it's just in part. You can't have it both ways.

I Have answered this already so I'm not going to repost it. That is not what I'm saying and no my argument does not fall apart although you would like it too.

I don't recall your answer and you can't have it both ways. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.." does not equate to "some works of righteousness which we have done help save us" and trying to say that works of righteousness in Titus 3:5 are really works of unrighteousness by those who are trying to perfectly obey the law is in error as well. Works of righteousness in Titus 3:5 are the same works of righteousness in Acts 10:35. They are the fruit of salvation but never the root.

after looking the rest of this over, I see that I have answered practically all of it more than once so I'm not going to do it again.

I don't recall any significant rebuttals to my statements above from you.

Your " cute" remarks about the plan of salvation, the remarks in this post about this at this matter and other things prove to me that you have no interest in discussing this.

If I had no interest in discussing this then I would not be wasting my time by thoroughly explaining all of this to you.

You just want to promote yourself and win an argument.

How am I promoting myself? I am promoting the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). That is promoting Christ, not myself and not any particular church. Galatians 6:14 - But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Praise God!

I'm tired of it I'm going to move over something else.

So basically what I'm hearing from you is that you have no sufficient rebuttal, you are very satisfied with what you already believe, and you don't want to be confused with what I have been explaining to you.

As far as your silly argument about repentance coming before safe, I've already told you that he was speaking to the Jews who already believed in God, they just needed to believe in Christ and his gospel.

Yes, these Jews already believed "mental assent" in God but they still needed to repent "change their minds" and believe in Christ/His gospel by choosing to trust in Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation. So you have believe before repentance in your 4-5 step plan of salvation, which merely equates to "believe in God" (even the demons believe in God - James 2:19) so where is believe in Christ/His gospel in your 4-5 step plan of salvation? *Now we are getting to where the rubber meets the road! Don't quit on me now.

and by the way, all the things you accuse me of, I suggest you spend some time tonight in front of the mirror.

I'm not accusing you of anything that I have not already accused myself of prior to placing my faith in Christ for salvation. I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and had spent some time in the church of Christ as well prior to receiving Christ through faith so I understand how both churches teach salvation by works disguised as salvation through faith.

 

[Atwood]

how many times do I have to repeat this for you? NO MATTER HOW MANY WORKS WE PERFORM, WE CAN NEVER EARN EVEN A SMALL PORTION OF OUR SALVATION.

Glad to read that you confess that, Alligator. Now unfortunately will you soon contradict that confession in your long, long post, trying to bring in the work of human water baptism? -- Or did the backquoting get confused here, & you didn't confess that?

Water baptism is ruled out, of course as a human work. There are very few passages where the issue comes up, as opposed to the multitude of faith-only passages.

The promise of God is:

Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus [Christ], and you shall be saved.

Now if some guy appeared at the Pearly Gates and was refused admittance after he trusted (believed in) the Lord Jesus as his Savior, for failure to get dunked in the water, that guy could accuse the Lord of false-advertising -- but He does not false advertise. The one & only MUST-I-DO for salvation is believe (have faith/ trust).

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

You cannot prove chronological order from a mere "and." And can be epexegetical, saying the same thing twice (as in marriage "to have and to hold").

Note how it makes such excellent sense: "Change your mind and believe." Those who disbelieved, must change their mind & believe. But the moment they change mind, they are believing!

In regards to Romans 10:9-10, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord

This is a rare passage where "confess" is linked to salvation. But since homologeo - hom(o) = same + log= saying (+ suffixes), and since to say the same is to agree with, I take this in context (with Rom 10:13) that this confession/agreement is to God and consists of agreeing with God that Jesus is YHWH LORD. In other words, when you trust Him as Savior, you must be in agreement that Jesus is God (not Jesus the Mexican car mechanic). This has to do with having Jesus adequately defined when you trust Him as Savior, defined as YHWH and as risen from the dead.

I already explained Acts 2:38

The only explanation of Acts 2:38 that works for me is that this is Spirit Baptism. No water is mentioned.

In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation,

Actually water baptism is not regularly associated with salvation when the topic is discussed as such. We may see persons in Acts regularly getting water baptized, but the connection of baptism with salvation is rare. That compares with a multitude of believe/faith only passages, too many to even post in one post here.

I suggest you spend some time tonight in front of the mirror.

The old Isaiah 6; 2 Cor 3:18 routine is advisable. We look at the Lord in His mirror, the Word of God. We see Him; then we see ourselves in that light. Then comes the "Woe is me" and the cleansing, hopefully. We would not be like the natural man (aner, masculine man, not anthropos which would include women), who glances at the mirror, says, "Yup," and pays it no mind.