In context: Romans 4:4-5

[mailmandan]

Your whole argument is baseless since you left out the primary factor in our salvation.We are saved by GRACE...through faith...Which means through faith in Christ...What is the faith you have in Christ? That he is the Son of God come to deliver you from your sins.How does he deliver you from your sins. Repent and be baptised for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is the promise to you and your children and all who the Lord will call.(not sure if I have the quote correct)

Apart from genuine faith in Christ which trusts exclusively in Him for salvation, repentance is merely attempted self reformation and baptism is just a bath. My faith is in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of my salvation and is not in "water and works."

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

In Acts 2:38, repentance is the means of receiving forgiveness and baptism is to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they already received through repentance/faith.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God (ALL BEFORE WATER BAPTISM). Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (COMPARE WITH ACTS 16:31 - BELIEVE...SAVED) who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM). *What happened to baptism in Acts 11:17?

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony* Try reading it all and harmonize scripture with scripture before hanging your hat on your biased interpretation of one verse.

You are going on and on not understanding faith without works is dead

I understand that faith without works is dead. You don't understand that faith must be made alive in Christ FIRST (by grace through faith, not works - Ephesians 2:-8,9) then unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Faith without works is dead does not mean that our faith is dead until it produces good works and then it becomes alive and saves us based on our works and it does not mean that works are the source of life in faith. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit shows that there is no root, hence faith without works is dead. Just as a tree must be alive FIRST before it can produce any fruit and the life flows through the root and produces the fruit.

 

[Elin]

This is a terribly weak argument.
To somehow say that if we obey a simple command of Christ's then we are not trusting him is ridiculous. For one thing, that says that one can know the heart of another and know his motives for doing a good work. I choose to believe the parable of the talents ( that many like to avoid), Matt. 16:27; Rev. 20:12; Eph. 2:10 and others on the subject.

Strawman.

Not when you falsely maintain the "simple" command is "by works and faith you shall you be saved."

That is the terribly weak, and false, argument.

 

[Elin]

you know my answer to your first sentence, so I don't know why you asked it. You seem not to want to grasp the idea that I believe that no matter how many works we do, we can never earn even a small part of our salvation. You sarcastically referred to the Campbellite four step plan, well actually, it's a five step plan, but it has nothing to do with Alexander Campbell. The last one be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee the crown of life. This is not about rewards, it is about saving your soul.

EPh 2:10, does not say faith alone., We are not saved by anything alone.

Okay, Eph says "not by works, lest anyone should boast."

So if not by faith alone, then what else plus faith?

 

[Elin]

did it ever occur to you that you might be the misguided soul? And that you might also be the one leading others astray? I didn't think so. That's the same canned response I receive from all the other "faith only" advocates.

That would be those who believe Eph 2:8-9; Ro 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, 9:30-31, 10:6; Gal 2:16; Php 3:9; Heb 11:7.

Why don't you believe them?

 

[Elin]

Yet you still believe that works in addition to faith are the basis by which we receive eternal life so whether you see these works as earning salvation or not, there is still merit on our part for doing these works if they stand between us and heaven.
You can't have it both ways.
Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. Good works are the fruit of salvation but never the root of it.

Depending on who you ask in the church of Christ, they may cite anywhere from 4-6 steps. SeaBass continues to cite only 4 steps yet you say 5 steps by adding "be faithful unto death." Others may also add "hear the word" before believe making it 6 steps. In regards to Revelation 2:10, do you believe that this verse teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Christ for salvation? If so, then just how faithful would you have to be? That is vague and could include any number of good works. This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there.

The very next verse says, "He who OVERCOMES shall not be hurt by the second death." *1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God OVERCOMES the world. And this is
the victory that OVERCOMES the world---OUR FAITH. We are clearly saved through FAITH, not faith plus being faithful enough. Having faith to the end is being faithful. After leaving the church of Christ that I had temporarily attended many years ago, I ran into a woman who still attended there and she told me because I no longer attend the church of Christ, I failed to remain faithful unto death and won't be saved. Is that how you define be faithful unto death? Continue to attend your church?

Ephesians 2:8,9 says saved through faith, not works. Ephesians 2:10 says created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
Faith that saves is not alone in the sense that it never produces good works, but
this faith "trusts in Christ alone for salvation" and not in works. Faith in works is not faith in Christ.
Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save us. No supplements needed.

We are saved the moment that we place our faith "in Christ alone for salvation." When you hear a genuine believer say that we are saved by "faith IN CHRIST alone,"
they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that "remains alone" in the sense that it is barren of works James 2:24, demonstrating to be a dead faith (James 2:14).
Saving faith results in producing good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's the faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ part of the equation
that "alone" saves you as the instrumental means.
Good works are the fruit, by product, and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the means of our salvation. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Alligator is intelligent enough to understand your cogent exposition of the NT.

He just chooses not to.

 

[Elin]

I wish people would just say what Jesus said, " Those who have done the GOOD DEEDScome to a resurrection of life, but those who do evil deeds come to a res. of condemnation". Jh. 5:29

Keeping in mind what the "good deed" is--Jn 6:29, 8:24; Mk 1:14.

 

[Alligator]

This is a terribly weak argument. To somehow say that if we obey a simple command of Christ's then we are not trusting him is ridiculous. For one thing, that says that one can know the heart of another and know his motives for doing a good work. I choose to believe the parable of the talents ( that many like to avoid), Matt. 16:27; Rev. 20:12; Eph. 2:10 and others on the subject.

Strawman.

Not when you falsely maintain the "simple" command is "by works and faith you shall you be saved."

That is the terribly weak, and false, argument.

We are told to repent (Luke 13:3), we are told to confess (Romans 10:9-10), and be baptized for the remission of sins. We are not saved by faith alone.

 

[Elin]

And when you don't confuse justification and sanctification.

Now I am really confused....

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse. . .but Paul's doctrine is not easy going, and can be hard to understand (2Pe 3:15-16).

And confusion of justification and sanctification leads to the false doctrine
of salvation by faith plus works.

So please study my responses carefully and not just skim them.

Yes, through faith, not through works, lest any man should boast.

Does your response alter in any material way what I stated in the quote above?

yes it does we are saved by grace through faith. faith without works is dead...
what is this talk about 'saving faith'

"Grace through faith" does not alter what I stated.
Faith is the necessary means which grace employs to save.
There is no salvation without true faith.

And it's "saving faith" as opposed to "counterfeit faith" (Mt 7:21-23; Lk 8:13).

I believe what the NT states--that he came to save me from the wrath of God
(Ro 5:9) on my guilt for sin.
When I believe in Jesus Christ, God declares me "not guilty for sin" (justification) which saves me from his wrath on my guilt.

where does the scripture say that..."When I believe in Jesus Christ, God declares me
"not guilty for sin" (justification) which saves me from his wrath on my guilt."
The scripture says repent and be baptised for the remission of sin and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

That is the meaning of the Greek word (dikaimoa ) for "justification."

Actually, it has three meanings:
1) a sentence of acquittal, by which men are declared "not guilty" by God
(Ro 3:24, 28, 4:2, 5:1, 9, 8:30, 10:10, etc.), made righteous by gift (Ro 5:17),
2) a righteous law (Ro 1:32),
3) a righteous act (Ro 5:18),

These are the acts that follow the faith which saves.

Their conversion, from unbelief to belief, is seen in Ac 2:37.
The acts which are to follow their belief are seen in Ac 2:38.

The scripture says faith comes by hearing

Yes, that is what w see in Ac 2:36-38,

They heard in v. 36,
they believed in v. 37
they obeyed in v. 38.

that is what happen God gives the grace God gives the faith, man acts upon the faith

Agreed. . .and note that faith comes before works (obedience),
man doesn't act (obey) until after he has saving faith.

...faith without works is dead....they believed and asked what shall we do...repent and baptise for remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost....You say you believe and your sins are gone

The NT says we are justified (dikaimoa--sentence of acquittal of guilt, made righteous) by faith
(see Scriptures above).

Your guilt, past and present, is gone forever, you are given the gift of righteousness (Ro 5:17),
which does not mean sinlessness (1Jn 1:8).

If we offer ourselves in slavery to righteousness, it will lead to (unto) holiness. . .in a growth process,
not instantaneously like our acquittal of guilt by faith, in justification.
But we will still sin. . .until we die (1Jn 1:8).

you are a slave to righteousness, which lead unto holiness,
but you sin until you die...so when will you be holy? this is babbling...

Only when 1Jn 1:8 is babbling.

IF you sin until you die you will die in your sins, then you have not been delivered from sin.

Take it up with John.

You do not understand what "delivered from sin" means.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

But we still fail from time to time. . .and that's sin (1Jn 1:8).

Scripture says it, and experience confirms it.

 

[Elin]

We are told to repent (Luke 13:3), we are told to confess (Romans 10:9-10), and be baptized for the remission of sins. We are not saved by faith alone.

Paul disagrees.

 

[Alligator]

Okay, Eph says "not by works, lest anyone should boast."

So if not by faith alone, then what else plus faith?

See my post # 127

 

[Elin]

See my post # 127

Paul disagrees.

 

[Alligator]

did it ever occur to you that you might be the misguided soul? And that you might also be the one leading others astray? I didn't think so. That's the same canned response I receive from all the other "faith only" advocates.

That would be those who believe Eph 2:8-9; Ro 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, 9:30-31, 10:6; Gal 2:16; Php 3:9; Heb 11:7.

Why don't you believe them?

I could ask why you don't believe Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; I Pet. 3:21; Acts 22:16; Gal. 3:26-27: and Rom . 6:3-6;

 

[Alligator]

We are told to repent (Luke 13:3), we are told to confess (Romans 10:9-10), and be baptized for the remission of sins. We are not saved by faith alone.

Paul disagrees.

Do you realize that only once in Holy writ is the phrase "faith alone" used, and that says we are NOT
saved by faith alone.

 

[newbirth]

=mailmandan;1648615]

Apart from genuine faith in Christ which trusts exclusively in Him for salvation, repentance is merely attempted self reformation and baptism is just a bath. My faith is in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of my salvation and is not in "water and works."

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

In Acts 2:38, repentance is the means of receiving forgiveness and baptism is to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they already received through repentance/faith.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

You have taken away repentance and baptism for the remission of sins in one swipe ....so out went ..and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. it is the promise to you and your children and to them that are afar off and as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[newbirth]

What I find interesting is, People keep saying we are saved by saving faith, the scripture does not teach that. What the scripture teaches is we are saved by GRACE, that is God's call, it is the divine favour of God.....through FAITH which is a gift from God and it comes by hearing the word. Since faith comes by hearing the word, my question is, What does the word teach about seeing and entering the kingdom of God?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now if this is not a clear depiction of born of water and spirit I don't know what is.....

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The promise is to as many as the Lord our God shall call...Many are professing to be in the kingdom but they did not come in this way...They are making their own entrances ...this is the way Christ authorised. Some are going so far as to say they only believe and their sins were forgiven and they were filled with the Holy Spirit...

 

[Elin]

That would be those who believe
Eph 2:8-9; Ro 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, 9:30-31, 10:6; Gal 2:16; Php 3:9; Heb 11:7.

Why don't you believe them?

I could ask why you don't believe Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; I Pet. 3:21; Acts 22:16;
Gal. 3:26-27: and Rom . 6:3-6;

I do believe them, and find them in agreement with the Scriptures I posted above.

Let me start with Mk 16:15-16.

Baptism is not salvation, it is the inaugurating rite into Christ (Ro 6:3), into the new covenant, for those who are saved.
It corresponds to circumcision as the inaugurating rite into the Abrahamic covenant (Col 2:11-12) for those who believed.
But neither circumcision in the OT, nor baptism in the NT, saved them.
Only their faith saved them, in both instances.

And as we all know, the thief on he cross was not baptized, but he is nevertheless saved.

Mk 16:15 does not teach that baptism saves, for it did not save Simon Magus (Ac 8:13, 18-21).

Now regarding the others, Ro 6:3-6 explains them all, including Mt 16:15-16 above.

In NT times baptism so closely followed conversion that the two were considered part of one event.
Although baptism is not a means by which we enter into a faith relationship with Christ,
it is closely associated with faith.

The symbol and reality are so closely related that we see the symbol sometimes used
to refer to the reality,
in what some call a sacramental union, whereby the effects of one (forgiveness, salvation by faith)
are attributed to the other (baptism).

Baptism is a symbol of salvation and forgiveness of sin in that it depicts Christ's death,
burial and resurrection, and our identification with him in these experiences (Ro 6:3-4).
Baptism depicts graphically what happens as a result of union with Christ,
which comes through faith--i.e., we are united to Christ.
Baptism is our inauguration rite into Christ.

So believers are saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection,
not by baptism itself.

A back to where we started, why don't you believe

Eph 2:8-9; Ro 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, 9:30-31, 10:6; Gal 2:16; Php 3:9; Heb 11:7?

 

[Elin]

Do you realize that only once in Holy writ is the phrase "faith alone" used, and that says we are NOT
saved by faith alone.

Where in Holy Writ is the phrase "sovereignty of God" or "Trinity" or "relationship."

The specific words themselves don't have to be used to teach the doctrine.

 

[Elin]

What I find interesting is, People keep saying we are saved by saving faith, the scripture does not teach that. What the scripture teaches is we are saved by GRACE

Oh for heavens sakes!

A distinction without a difference.

Grace is the origin of everything--the call, the hearing, the believing, the justification, the salvation, the obedience, the sanctification, the glorification, and whatever else there is.

It's understood to be the cause of everything, and doesn't have to be stated every time.

 

[Alligator]

I do believe them, and find them in agreement with the Scriptures I posted above.

Let me start with Mk 16:15-16.

Baptism is not salvation, it is the inaugurating rite into Christ (Ro 6:3), into the new covenant, for those who are saved.
It corresponds to circumcision as the inaugurating rite into the Abrahamic covenant (Col 2:11-12) for those who believed.
But neither circumcision in the OT, nor baptism in the NT, saved them.
Only their faith saved them, in both instances.

And as we all know, the thief on he cross was not baptized, but he is nevertheless saved.

Mk 16:15 does not teach that baptism saves, for it did not save Simon Magus (Ac 8:13, 18-21).

Now regarding the others, Ro 6:3-6 explains them all, including Mt 16:15-16 above.

In NT times baptism so closely followed conversion that the two were considered part of one event.
Although baptism is not a means by which we enter into a faith relationship with Christ,
it is closely associated with faith.

The symbol and reality are so closely related that we see the symbol sometimes used
to refer to the reality,
in what some call a sacramental union, whereby the effects of one (forgiveness, salvation by faith)
are attributed to the other (baptism).

Baptism is a symbol of salvation and forgiveness of sin in that it depicts Christ's death,
burial and resurrection, and our identification with him in these experiences (Ro 6:3-4).
Baptism depicts graphically what happens as a result of union with Christ,
which comes through faith--i.e., we are united to Christ.
Baptism is our inauguration rite into Christ.

So believers are saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection,
not by baptism itself.

A back to where we started, why don't you believe

Eph 2:8-9; Ro 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, 9:30-31, 10:6; Gal 2:16; Php 3:9; Heb 11:7?

The thief on the cross? No, we do not know whether he was baptized or not, the Scriptures are silent. But the thief living under the Old Testament law is not A good example for Christians living under the New Testament.

yes, Romans 6 is a good scripture regarding the importance of baptism.

The Bible does not call baptism a symbol

all of those scriptures in Romans you listed are talking about works of the law of Moses. Go back and read a few verses prior to the ones you listed and you will see he is clearly talking about works of the old law. And of course, we are not saved by that Look at Romans 3:28. Practically the whole book of Romans you're dealing with works of the old law. Paul is trying to tell them that they are no longer justified by the old law.

 

[mailmandan]

Alligator is intelligent enough to understand your cogent exposition of the NT.

He just chooses not to.

As I've mentioned before, it's not hard to understand, just hard for him to ACCEPT.