In context: Romans 4:4-5

[kennethcadwell]

Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus [Christ], and you shall be saved.

Atwood this is the scripture you used; My question to you is what does believe mean to you ???

 

[Atwood]

Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus [Christ], and you shall be saved.

Atwood this is the scripture you used; My question to you is what does believe mean to you ???

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

I give them eternal lie, and they shall never perish.

I believe the above. I rest in it, nest in it, & am fully blessed in it.
I renounce any hope of saving myself, & depend wholly on the Son of God Who loved Me and gave Himself for me.

Believe means that I trust My Savior to save me from my sins, glorify me, make me present with Him if I die before He comes, or if I am alive when he comes he shall come for me to take me to the Fathers House in which there are many dwelling places, one of which is mine. I depend upon His death for me on the cross to pay for all my sins. I depend upon Him for my eternal destiny of blessing in which I am freely given all things, including fellowship with Him.

The below is the attitude for a believer:

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly;

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee,
say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

‘And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

 

[homwardbound]

Atwood, what about life in the resurrected Christ. I don't see saved by the death, I see saved by the life in Spirit and truth. death was necessary yes truth it was the means to be cleansed to be presented before Father, as Holy to get the gift of new life in Spirit and truth via the resurrected Christ for us to walk in Faith as Crist (Yeshua) already walked for us to love all.
Is this truth or error
I only see you delivering a half-sham gospel

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Corinthians 15 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [SUP]2 [/SUP]by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [SUP]4 [/SUP]and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: [SUP]5 [/SUP]and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: [SUP]6 [/SUP]after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. [SUP]7 [/SUP]After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: [SUP]14 [/SUP]and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: [SUP]17 [/SUP]and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [SUP]19 [/SUP]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

I give them eternal lie, and they shall never perish.

I believe the above. I rest in it, nest in it, & am fully blessed in it.
I renounce any hope of saving myself, & depend wholly on the Son of God Who loved Me and gave Himself for me.

Believe means that I trust My Savior to save me from my sins, glorify me, make me present with Him if I die before He comes, or if I am alive when he comes he shall come for me to take me to the Fathers House in which there are many dwelling places, one of which is mine. I depend upon His death for me on the cross to pay for all my sins. I depend upon Him for my eternal destiny of blessing in which I am freely given all things, including fellowship with Him.

The below is the attitude for a believer:

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly;

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee,
say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

‘And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

Does that belief though mean you should also believe in what He told us to do ?

I believe the answer to this is yes; so when He says we have to be born again, baptized, repent of sins, forgive others of their sins, and help others I take His word literally.

Whenever He speaks and says by doing these things you get eternal life, and to others who don't that they get sent to eternal punishment. Then He meant for these things to be done, and I trust His word and do not write off anything He said as if it doesn't apply to me, or that He was only speaking to them.

For what the Lord says to one group of believers, applies to all believers.

 

[homwardbound]

Ken, did you read my post #103, what you stated is done when one is born again in the Spirit, which id by Christ's resurrected Life, all you said comes in that new life a packaged deal, where one does not stress to do those things you said in your post. It is done by us, by the power of Father living in us and through us, the same as Father did through Jesus
pray you get this and are not stressing out over it, for I think you have come to new life right?

 

[homwardbound]

Take on my yoke it is easy, and his burden it is light, is that not what Christ said to us all that believe God? So If I am stressed out over what I do or not do, then maybe I do not see the free gift from Father through Son's finished work, where those that believe have new life in Spirit and truth. Since you do believe you do have this new life in the resurrected Christ, you think?

 

[SeaBass]

Paul never, I repeat NEVER, links salvation to any kind of work. . .of merit. . .of obedience. . .or whatever.
That is your own invention.

Read Romans 6 where Paul linked obedience to salvation.

Rom 6:16 obedience unto righteousness

Rom 6:17,18 the order of events:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified

Looks like it's time to take a look at Jn 6:27-29:

"'Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life,
which the Son of Man will give you.'
Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?'
Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

They missed the point that eternal life is Christ's gift and
were thinking in terms of achieving it by pious works or deeds.
So in their misunderstanding, they framed their question in terms of "works."

You misunderstand what Jesus is saying here, just as they did.

Jesus answered them in the terms of their question--"works,"
that believing in Jesus Christ is the indispensable "work" God calls for--the one
that leads to eternal life.

Jesus is talking about an internal choice, not about external deeds or actions.
External deeds or actions are the result of the internal choice, they flow from the choice,
but they are not the choice itself.
The internal choice is not an external work.
"Works" was their word, used in misunderstanding of what Jesus was saying.

Jn 6:27 Jesus Himself said to LABOUR-WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. So the "no works" argument is in total opposition to Christ. No works = no eternal life.

The "internal, external' works is something you made up out of thin air for that idea is not in the text. The work Jsus gave them to do was the work of belieiving and the work of believing consists of the work of repentance, confession and submitting to baptism. "Belief only' is void of works and is dead therefore is NOT what Christ is talking about.

When the people asked "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Why didn't Jesus answer this question by saying "Do no works for I have done all that needs to be done for salvation"? Jesus did NOT answer the question the way fatih only advocates would answer the question.

Paul never makes a distinction between "works of merit" which do not save
and "obedient works" which do save.

It is your own unBiblical notion that puts "works" in Paul's revelation from Jesus Christ.


First of all, "justification" is God's declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ.
It does not mean holiness, nor free from sin.
There is no change of character at justification.
It is only a change of position, a change of standing before God, to "not guilty."
Now hold that thought for a while. . .

Secondly, while Paul never uses "works" to mean anything but obedience to God's law,
he does use "righteousness" to mean two different things.

1) righteousness = justification--God's declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which saves from God's wrath on one's guilt (Ro 5:1, 9, 16, etc., etc., etc.).

2) righteousness = holiness/godliness--the process of sanctification through faithful obedience
to Jesus Christ (Ro 6:13, 19; Php 1:11, etc., etc., etc.), which is the result of
God's gift of righteousness = justification (Ro 5:17).

And now back to the thought we are holding--there is no change of character at justification.

Paul is not saying obedience-->holiness (righteousness)-->justification (free from sin)
because justification is not freedom from sin, it is simply a declarion of "not guilty."

Rather, Paul is saying that obedience-->holiness (righteousness) which is freedom from sin.
The subject of Ro 6:16-18 is not "1) righteousness = justification," justification is not spoken of at all.
Rather, the subject of Ro 6:16-18 is only "2) righteousness = holiness."

There is no link between obedience and justification in Ro 6:16-18, or anywhere in Paul.
Justification is by faith only in Paul.

Justified certainly does mean one has been freed from sin. And justified/freed from sin IS SALVATION therefore obeying from the heart comes BEFORE justification/salvation. Your denial of these simple acts does not prove your point.

No, he does not.

"The righteousness that comes from God" and "God's righteousness,"
to which the Israelites did not submit in Ro 10:3, is a free gift (Ro 5:17) of grace.
It is justification, a declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which removes God's wrath on one's guilt.

The Israelites sought to establish their own righteousness based on obedience to the law.
They would not submit to God's free gift of righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.


Because habitual disobedience shows one does not have true saving faith,
one has only a counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23; Lk 8:13).
They are lost because of their lack of faith, not because of their lack of works.

The Jews in Rom 10:3 went about doing THEIR OWN righteousness as opposed to doing God's righteousness, submitting to Gods commands. As you said yourself "they would not SUBMIT". They would not OBEY God's commands.
No obedient works = no salvation for the Jews.

Start with believing Ro 9:30:

"The Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it,
a righteousness that is by faith;
while Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness (God's commands),
has not attained it. Why not?
Because they pursued it not by faith, but as it were by works."

And then believe Ro 1:17:

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith,
from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.' "

You have created your own dilemma by your misunderstanding of "works."

Yes, the Gentiles were lost for not PERSUING-WORKING righteousness.
The Jews tried to save themselves by faithlessly trying to keep God's law perfectly to earn salvation is why they did not attain righteousness.

And the man-made solution you have devised to your self-made dilemma
is totally contrary to the NT, and only further compounds the dilemma, according to the NT.

You still have the problem of saying man is trying to earn salvation if he obeys and yet he will be disobedient and lost if he does not obey.

 

[SeaBass]

Paul speaks of being justified by faith apart from any works.
James speaks of both the above & of good works done after salvation which do not save but declare righteous.

The scripture is crystal clear: Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.
Faith is not a work, but the polar opposite of a work. Faith is resting in the Lord.

The unsaved man can only become saved by trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior. When he does that He is justified only by faith. God declares Him righteous at that point. Justification is by faith, not works at that point. James also recognizes how Abe believed God & it was reckoned to Abe for righteousness.

That justification of Abe happened early in the Bible story. Abe was saved and in Gen 12 given the great promises of the Abrahamic Covenant freely. At that point Abe was justified by faith. A number of years later, long after Abe was saved, he offered up Isaac and that good work declared that he was righteous. With regard to salvation, justification is by faith alone, apart from works.
After a man is saved & transformed, then enabled to do good works, his good works declare that he is righteous; thus works done after salvation do justify in the sense of declaring righteous. But works never save!

Faith is resting in the Savior, who invites those who labor & are heavy laden to come to Him for rest.

Heb. 3:
And said, They do always err in their heart:
But they did not know my ways;
11 As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest.


Heb. 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief,


Heb. 3:16
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.


Heb. 4:1
Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. 3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.




Heb. 4:8
For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

To enter the rest, you must obey this command:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus [Christ], and you shall be saved."

Nowhere did Paul says justification apart from ANY works.

Again, Rom 4:4 excludes works of obedience because obedient works can NEVER make one's reward of debt and not of grace.

 

[SeaBass]

False. belief is not called a work of man in John 6.

It's a work of God that God has given to man to do.

Jesus said LABOUR LABOUR LABOUR for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

 

[SeaBass]

The word "work" doesn't occur in the verse, neither does merit or obedience. This is a flight of fancy.
Claiming that one is saved by works is an attempt to establish one's own righteousness. Trusting the Lord Jesus means that one is declared righteous by God on the basis of faith. One is righteous if one is identified with the Lord Jesus, who is righteous (Romans 5).


Cease from imposing things on the text, Seabass.
The text says "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" -- the text does not say "submit/obey the righteousness/commands of God - obedience"; that is your heretical creation.
The righteousness of God is a gift from God, a declaration based on a man's trust in the Savior and man's identification with the Savior.

All works are obedient works. There is no other class of good works.



Abraham was justified apart from any works, just for believing. The work of offering up Isaac did get the declaration that Abe was righteous, but they did not save. Abe was saved long before that incident.



We don't "try to eliminate works" from salvation -- God has done it -- not just trying. "Not of works" lest anyone should boast." The only impossible situation of man is trying to be justified by good works, for the unsaved man has no good works. The only thing he is to do is to obey this commandment:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

ROm 10:3 "establish" and "submitted" means work, doing something.

 

[SeaBass]

I am so sorry you just do not see what I see, and refute everything I ever state as a view from where I am sitting at in the stadium watching the game and have over the years changed seats to see from a different angle to this flesh game of I am right and you are wrong, when God is the only righteous one right? So do we agree on this the God is the only one righteous ever? So I have decided to participate, and put on his armor to be safe in God, trusting in God for God's righteousness to work through me in Love to all, are we in agreement to this?

Belief is obedience, Jn 3:36. Peter NEVER said to believe only for belief only is dead and not obedience.

Acts 10:43---------believe>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
Acts 2:38---------be baptized>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

The bible does not contradict itself. Those that reject that belief includes baptism rejects the harmonizing truth of the bible.

 

[Elin]

Paul never, I repeat NEVER, links salvation to any kind of work. . .of merit. . .of obedience. . .or whatever.
That is your own invention.

Read Romans 6 where Paul linked obedience to salvation.

Rom 6:16 obedience unto righteousness

Rom 6:17,18 the order of events:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified

Nope.

Righteousness in Ro 6:16 is not salvation.
Righteousness in Ro 6:16 is sanctification, through a life of obedience after salvation.

That was explained to you in the following where justification = salvation [freedom from guilt for sin,
which removes (saves from) God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on your guilt].

You are skimming, not paying attention and considering.

Paul never makes a distinction between "works of merit" which do not save
and "obedient works" which do save.

It is your own unBiblical notion that puts "works" in Paul's revelation from Jesus Christ.

First of all, "justification" is God's declaration of "not guilty for sin" because of faith in Jesus Christ.
It does not mean holiness, nor free from sin. It means freedom from the guilt for sin.

There is no change of character at justification, no holiness/righteousness.
It is only a change of position, a change of standing before God, to "not guilty for sin."
Now hold that thought for a while. . .

Secondly, while Paul never uses "works" to mean anything but obedience to God's law,
he does use "righteousness" to mean two different things.

1) righteousness = justification--God's declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which saves from God's wrath on one's guilt (Ro 5:1, 9, 16, etc., etc., etc.).

2) righteousness = holiness/godliness--the process of sanctification through faithful obedience
to Jesus Christ (Ro 6:13, 19; Php 1:11, etc., etc., etc.), which is after
God's gift (Ro 5:17)of righteousness (justification) which is salvation.

And now back to the thought we are holding--there is no change of character at justification.

Paul is not saying obedience-->holiness (righteousness)-->justification (free from sin)
because justification is not freedom from sin, it is freedom from guilt for sin, when it occurs.

There is a difference.
We do not live sinless lives, but we live guilt-free lives because of our justification based on faith,
not on obedience or sinlessness.

Rather, Paul is saying that obedience-->holiness (righteousness) which is freedom from guilt for sin.

The subject of Ro 6:16-18 is not "1) righteousness = justification," justification is not spoken of at all.
Rather, the subject of Ro 6:16-18 is only "2) righteousness = holiness."

There is no link between obedience and justification in Ro 6:16-18, or anywhere in Paul.
Justification is by faith only in Paul.

You don't understand the difference between justification (right standing) and holiness,
for Paul refers to both of them as "righteousness."

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ken, did you read my post #103, what you stated is done when one is born again in the Spirit, which id by Christ's resurrected Life, all you said comes in that new life a packaged deal, where one does not stress to do those things you said in your post. It is done by us, by the power of Father living in us and through us, the same as Father did through Jesus
pray you get this and are not stressing out over it, for I think you have come to new life right?

Yes I understand that, but one still has the freewill to choose not to walk like that.

Some are even told they don't have to walk that way, false doctrine.....

The Holy Spirit is our helper, not controller.......we are not puppets that can no longer choose for ourselves.
I pray to God that those who believe in the Lord, feel the grieving/conviction from the Holy Spirit when they sin, and repent of it.

 

[newbirth]

Again, your works for salvation taints the truth and blinds you to the truth...God dealt to ever man A MEASURE of FAITH.....GOD did it, NOT you or me......Until you acknowledge the truth of Jesus and HIS faith and FAITH alone that saves, secures and eternally seals you will be blind to the SIMPLE truths that are found in Christ and lost in your sins and belief in your works and abilities!

Why should anyone acknowledge your lie...faith alone does not and cannot save...
we are saved by grace through faith....faith without works is dead, this is the truth

 

[Elin]

Paul never makes a distinction between "works of merit" which do not save
and "obedient works" which do save.

It is your own unBiblical notion that puts "works" in Paul's revelation from Jesus Christ.

First of all, "justification" is God's declaration of "not guilty for sin" because of faith in Jesus Christ.
It does not mean holiness, nor free from sin. It means freedom from the guilt for sin.

There is no change of character at justification, no holiness/righteousness.
It is only a change of position, a change of standing before God, to "not guilty for sin."
Now hold that thought for a while. . .

Secondly, while Paul never uses "works" to mean anything but obedience to God's law,
he does use "righteousness" to mean two different things.

1) righteousness = justification--God's declaration of "not guilty" because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which saves from God's wrath on one's guilt (Ro 5:1, 9, 16, etc., etc., etc.).

2) righteousness = holiness/godliness--the process of sanctification through faithful obedience
to Jesus Christ (Ro 6:13, 19; Php 1:11, etc., etc., etc.), which is after
God's gift (Ro 5:17)of righteousness (justification) which is salvation.

And now back to the thought we are holding--there is no change of character at justification.

Paul is not saying obedience-->holiness (righteousness)-->justification (free from sin)
because justification is not freedom from sin, it is freedom from guilt for sin, when it occurs.

There is a difference.
We do not live sinless lives, but we live guilt-free lives because of our justification based on faith,
not on obedience or sinlessness.

Rather, Paul is saying that obedience-->holiness (righteousness) which is freedom from guilt for sin.

The subject of Ro 6:16-18 is not "1) righteousness = justification," justification is not spoken of at all.
Rather, the subject of Ro 6:16-18 is only "2) righteousness = holiness."

There is no link between obedience and justification in Ro 6:16-18, or anywhere in Paul.
Justification is by faith only in Paul.

The order is sin, faith, justification=salvation, sanctification.

Justified certainly does mean one has been freed from sin.

So we are able to live a sinless life? We are not. Then we're not freed from sin.
We are free from the guilt for sin by faith, which saves us from God's wrath on guilt for sin at the final judgment (Ro 5:9).

And justified/freed from sin IS SALVATION

therefore: obeying from the heart comes BEFORE justification/salvation.

Your conclusion is based on the premise of a wrong meaning of "justified."

Justified--is not freed from sin, itself, but freed from the guilt for sin, by faith, which, yes,--
is salvation from the wrath of God on our guilt for sin (Ro 5:9)

Your denial of these simple acts does not prove your point.

Does not the same apply to you?

The Jews in Rom 10:3 went about doing THEIR OWN righteousness as opposed to doing
God's righteousness, submitting to Gods commands. As you said yourself
"they would not SUBMIT". They would not OBEY God's commands.

You truncate the verse.

"They would not SUBMIT to God's righteousness." (Ro 10:3)

And what is "God's righteousness"?

Ro 1:17 - "For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith
(in Jesus Christ), from first to last (nothing else, including obeying commands, is involved)."

They would not SUBMIT to God's righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ.
rather they sought their own through a law of righteousness (9:31); i.e., obedience to God's commands.

"Righteousness" in Ro 1:17, 10:3 does not mean holiness, it means justification.
You do not understand the two meanings of "righteousness" in Romans.
It is presented in my post quoted above.
Go study it and learn their meanings.

No obedient works = no salvation for the Jews.

Nope.

No faith in Jesus Christ = no salvation for the Jews.

That is common Christian truth.

Yes, the Gentiles were lost for not PERSUING-WORKING righteousness.
The Jews tried to save themselves by faithlessly trying to keep God's law perfectly to earn salvation is why they did not attain righteousness.

Have you read Ro 9:30?

". . .the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
WHY NOT? BECAUSE THEY PURSUED IT NOT BY FAITH but as it were by works.
They stumbled over the stumbling stone (Jesus Christ). . ."

You still have the problem of saying man is trying to earn salvation if he obeys and yet he will be disobedient and lost if he does not obey.

Nope. . .that's the problem of your contra-NT theology.

Man is saved the moment he comes to saving faith,
and will be lost only if he does not have true saving faith.

And we know his faith is true and, therefore, he is saved
because true faith walks in obedience.

True faith = salvation = obedience.

Likewise, no obedience = no true faith = no salvation.

His disobedience is not what condemns him, his unbelief, which does not obey, condemns him.

 

[newbirth]

My argument is very much alive. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Are works of righteousness evil works or good works? Do evil works that unbelievers produce merit for them eternal life? NO. Do good works that believers produce merit for them eternal life? NO. ANY WORKS. Saved through faith, NOT WORKS. Paul did not say saved through faith and works, so put down your shoe horn and believe God's Word.

Your whole argument is baseless since you left out the primary factor in our salvation.We are saved by GRACE...through faith...Which means through faith in Christ...What is the faith you have in Christ? That he is the Son of God come to deliver you from your sins.How does he deliver you from your sins. Repent and be baptised for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is the promise to you and your children and all who the Lord will call.(not sure if I have the quote correct)

You are going on and on not understanding faith without works is dead

 

[Elin]

Looks like it's time to take a look at Jn 6:27-29:

"'Do not work for food that spoils, but for foodthat endures to eternal life,
which the Son of Man will give you.'
Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?'
Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

They missed the point that eternal life is Christ's gift and
were thinking in terms of achieving it by pious works or deeds.
So in their misunderstanding, they framed their question in terms of "works."

You misunderstand what Jesus is saying here, just as they did.

Jesus answered them in the terms of their question--"works,"
that believing in Jesus Christ is the indispensable "work" God calls for--the one
that leads to eternal life.

Jesus is talking about an internal choice, not about external deeds or actions.
External deeds or actions are the result of the internal choice, they flow from the choice,
but they are not the choice itself.
The internal choice is not an external work.
"Works" was their word, used in misunderstanding of what Jesus was saying.

Jn 6:27 Jesus Himself said to LABOUR-WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.
So the "no works" argument is in total opposition to Christ.
No works = no eternal life.

The reason for the word "work" is explained in the above, and I repeat:

You misunderstand what Jesus is saying here, just as they did.

The "internal, external' works is something you made up out of thin air for that idea is not in the text.

Nope.

It reflects the meaning of "belief" as used throughout the NT, including by Jesus.

The work Jsus gave them to do was the work of belieiving and
the work of believing consists of the work of repentance, confession and submitting to baptism.
'Belief only' is void of works and is dead therefore is NOT what Christ is talking about.

So the Jews were condemned for not "repenting, confessing, and being baptized"?

That's not what Jesus said:

"if you do not believe I am he (the one I claim to be), you will die in your sin." (Jn 8:24)

Jesus said that condemnation to eternal death is the result of only one thing: unbelief.
Jesus did not say it was the result of not repenting, confessing or being baptized.

That is something you made up, and is not the way "belief" is used throughout the NT.

When the people asked

"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
Why didn't Jesus answer this question by saying "Do no works for I have done all that needs to be done for salvation"?

Because that answer includes nothing about the only thing necessary: belief.

Jesus did NOT answer the question the way fatih only advocates would answer the question.

Wrong.

That is precisely the way he answered it. . .and repeated it in Jn 8:24.

You do not understand his plain words and meaning in Jn 6:29, 8:24. And so I repeat again

you misunderstand what Jesus is saying here, just as they did.

 

[newbirth]

So we are able to live a sinless life? We are not. Then we're not freed from sin.
We are free from the guilt for sin by faith, which saves us from God's wrath on guilt for sin at the final judgment (Ro 5:9).


Your conclusion is based on the premise of a wrong meaning of "justified."

Justified--is not freed from sin, itself, but freed from the guilt for sin, by faith, which, yes,--
is salvation from the wrath of God on our guilt for sin (Ro 5:9)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Man is saved the moment he comes to saving faith,
and will be lost only if he does not have true saving faith.

And we know his faith is true and, therefore, he is saved
because true faith walks in obedience.

We are saved by GRACE through faith...we are not saved by faith...it is by Grace we are saved through faith in Christ...What is it about Christ you believe? Is it not that he came to save you from your sins? What is the procedure he laid out for you?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The Gospel is simple when you let God show you how....

 

[Elin]

So we are able to live a sinless life? We are not. Then we're not freed from sin.
We are free from the guilt for sin by faith, which saves us from God's wrath on guilt for sin at the final judgment (Ro 5:9).

Your conclusion is based on the premise of a wrong meaning of "justified."

Justified--is not freed from sin, itself, but freed from the guilt for sin, by faith, which, yes,--
is salvation from the wrath of God on our guilt for sin (Ro 5:9)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Did you notice I was explaining the meaning of justification,
which does not mean a change of character--that's sanctification after justification.

However, Ro 6:18 above is not about justification, but sanctification.
It's about being freed from slavery to sin by offering yourselves to obey God and
becoming slaves to righteousness.

If we offer ourselves in slavery to righteousness, it will lead to (unto) holiness. . .in a growth process,
not instantaneously. But we will still sin. . .until we die.

Seabass misunderstands the freedom from sin of the sanctification process in Ro 6:18
to be justification (God's declaration of "not guilty for sin").

Man is saved the moment he comes to saving faith,
and will be lost only if he does not have true saving faith.

And we know his faith is true and, therefore, he is saved
because true faith walks in obedience.

We are saved by GRACE through faith...we are not saved by faith...it is by Grace we are saved through faith in Christ...

Yes, through faith, not through works, lest any man should boast.

Does your response alter in any material way what I stated in the quote above?

What is it about Christ you believe? Is it not that he came to save you from your sins?

I believe what the NT states--that he came to save me from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on my guilt for sin.
When I believe in Jesus Christ, God declares me "not guilty for sin" (justification) which saves me from his wrath on my guilt.

What is the procedure he laid out for you?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles,
"Brothers what shall we do?"
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

These are the acts that follow the faith which saves.

Their conversion, from unbelief to belief, is seen in v. 37.
The acts which are to follow their belief are seen in v. 38.

The Gospel is simple when you let God show you how....

And when you don't confuse justification and sanctification.

 

[newbirth]

Yes, through faith, not through works, lest any man should boast.

Does your response alter in any material way what I stated in the quote above?

yes it does we are saved by grace through faith. faith without works is dead...what is this talk about 'saving faith '

I believe what the NT states--that he came to save me from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on my guilt for sin.
When I believe in Jesus Christ, God declares me "not guilty for sin" (justification) which saves me from his wrath on my guilt.

where does the scripture say that..When I believe in Jesus Christ, God declares me "not guilty for sin" (justification) which saves me from his wrath on my guilt.
The scripture says repent and be baptised for the remission of sin and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

These are the acts that follow the faith which saves.

Their conversion, from unbelief to belief, is seen in v. 37.
The acts which are to follow their belief are seen in v. 38.

The scripture says faith comes by hearing that is what happen God gives the grace God gives the faith, man acts upon the faith...faith without works is dead....they believed and asked what shall we do...repent and baptise for remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost....You say you believe and your sins are gone

If we offer ourselves in slavery to righteousness, it will lead to (unto) holiness. . .in a growth process,
not instantaneously. But we will still sin. . .until we die.

you are a slave to righteousness,which lead unto holiness,but you sin until you die...so when will you be holy? this is babbling...
If you sin until you die you will die in your sins, then you have not been delivered from sin.
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


And when you don't confuse justification and sanctification.

Now I am really confused....