In heaven we will have a body of flesh and blood. Very interesting because angels can take on human form

[FollowingtheWay]

I agree there was no written law, that didn’t come until Moses. I guess what I’m asking is when does law become law?

God told Moses “thou shalt not murder” did this become law when God spoke it, or when Moses wrote it down?

It would seem without God first saying to us: "Thou shalt not...," there is no wrong nor penalty in doing the particular thing.

In other words, doing something that God doesn't want done, is not a sin until God says "Don't do this, or don’t do that;" Then it becomes sin to do the thing because you have been told and warned not to do it. You are then and only then accountable for that particular deed.
Adam violated a commandment of God, which was:

Gen 2:16-17​

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:​

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil’, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (KJV)​

Prior to this we have no record of God giving Law to His creation other than telling them to "...Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over..." {Gen 1:28}, which they did.

still learning….​

still learning as well. Here is a John piper article on it. He’s a pretty solid teacher/scholar

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/adam-christ-and-justification-part-1

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Why we might see Adam and Eve in heaven article

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/will-we-see-adam-and-eve-in-heaven.html

 

[Truthnightmare]

I can believe that Enoch 'did not see death because God took him, and he was no more" without assuming that Enoch never died. I only suppose that he did in the most peaceful way, in his sleep, perhaps. Nor am I of the opinion that anyone goes "to heaven" when they die, but rather are 'in waiting' for the "that day when I shall stand...(I can't recall the exact scripture, at the moment, to quote it adequately).

Well let me ask you, if you believe Enoch died and is waiting for that day, what about Moses and Elijah? They appeared long after their deaths so to speak…

.Nor am I of the opinion that anyone goes "to heaven" when they die.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus told this man he would see him in paradise “today” when this man died you don’t believe he went to heaven? But isn’t Paradise heaven?

 

[Truthnightmare]

No. Adam was also sentenced to die, the first to die a spiritual death also.





Adam is the opposite of a type of Jesus.





A type is when someone is similar to someone else in notable ways. Adam was very similar to Lucifer in falling and being kicked out of paradise.

I don’t believe Adam was sentenced to die spiritually.

How could Adam be sentenced to die spiritually, when God said…

Genesis 3
22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

All Adam has/had to do is partake of the tree of life (Jesus) and he can live forever. That’s not a death sentence… I’m in the same situation, I know good and evil… I can partake of Christ or I’m a dead man too. Options my friend.

That is not a death sentence. There is a choice involved. Now Satan he’s a dead man. No choice… No options…‘No forgiveness no mercy…
And so is Raziel and his little fallen angels buddies.

 

[ewq1938]

I don’t believe Adam was sentenced to die spiritually.

God promised he would die the day he ate the fruit and since he was physically alive, he died a different kind of death that same day.

How could Adam be sentenced to die spiritually, when God said…

Genesis 3
22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

All Adam has/had to do is partake of the tree of life (Jesus) and he can live forever.

And God blocked his access to that tree showing that God would not allow him to become immortal.

That’s not a death sentence… I’m in the same situation, I know good and evil… I can partake of Christ or I’m a dead man too. Options my friend.

God didn't block your way to Christ though.

That is not a death sentence. There is a choice involved. Now Satan he’s a dead man. No choice… No options…‘No forgiveness no mercy…
And so is Raziel and his little fallen angels buddies.

And maybe bad people like Adam and Judas as well...

 

[Mem]

Well let me ask you, if you believe Enoch died and is waiting for that day, what about Moses and Elijah? They appeared long after their deaths so to speak…



42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus told this man he would see him in paradise “today” when this man died you don’t believe he went to heaven? But isn’t Paradise heaven?

Abraham's bosom is descriptive of Paradise, and I regard that as symbolism of dying in faith with assurance of resurrection. Hence, Lazarus' comfort, and the ruler's torment because the former had hope and the latter was had only the lake of fire to look forward to. Jesus can speak to the dead, the witch of endor had to 'raise' samuel, and samuel was peeved saying, "why did you rouse me?" But she couldn't raise his body, and as scripture says about absence from the body equates present with the Lord, the witch couldn't do what she did without God knowing it, but that besides the fact that no one can do anything without God's knowledge.

I believe a lot of people buy into the fairy tales that developed from God's truth and reality, such as the so-called gods worshipped of other religions.

 

[posthuman]

And God blocked his access to that tree showing that God would not allow him to become immortal.

Genesis 3:24​

So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.​

shamar: to keep, watch, preserve
Original Word: שָׁמַר
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shamar
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mar')
Definition: to keep, watch, preserve


or did He preserve the way because as He had promised, He would bring Salvation?

what is that spiritual sword of fire that preserves the path of life?

 

[posthuman]

I don’t believe Adam was sentenced to die spiritually.

How could Adam be sentenced to die spiritually, when God said…

Genesis 3
22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

All Adam has/had to do is partake of the tree of life (Jesus) and he can live forever. That’s not a death sentence… I’m in the same situation, I know good and evil… I can partake of Christ or I’m a dead man too. Options my friend.

That is not a death sentence. There is a choice involved. Now Satan he’s a dead man. No choice… No options…‘No forgiveness no mercy…
And so is Raziel and his little fallen angels buddies.

interestingly both Adam and his wife, in their judgments, are given sorrow - in childbirth and toil for food. but no sorrow is mentioned in the judgement of Satan.

'Godly sorrow worketh repentance'

 

[ewq1938]

Genesis 3:24​

So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.​

shamar: to keep, watch, preserve
Original Word: שָׁמַר
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shamar
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mar')
Definition: to keep, watch, preserve


or did He preserve the way because as He had promised, He would bring Salvation?

what is that spiritual sword of fire that preserves the path of life?

Can you show people being saved in the OT by going to the tree of life in the garden and eating from it? Or, was it protected from anyone going to it?

 

[posthuman]

Can you show people being saved in the OT by going to the tree of life in the garden and eating from it? Or, was it protected from anyone going to it?

Not saying that they entered before THE WAY pitched His tent among men, but that the path was preserved instead of closed off forever.

1 Peter 1:10-11
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[Sipsey]

I agree with that, BUT it will still be a flesh and blood body. We will eat, drink, work and do other things.

You seem fixated on a single verse, while ignoring others that plainly state, that there will be no mortal flesh in Heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

You seem fixated on a single verse, while ignoring others that plainly state, that there will be no mortal flesh in Heaven.

What verses say that? I know of none. Keep in mind inheriting the kingdom of God does not equal being unable to go to the current heaven. That is called the third heaven.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Here Paul isn't sure if this person went to heaven bodily or not, but it shows that it isn't impossible to go there bodily. One can go to heaven in a non-bodily form as well. Either is possible.

 

[tourist]

You seem fixated on a single verse, while ignoring others that plainly state, that there will be no mortal flesh in Heaven.

True about no flesh in heaven, the reason being is the flesh in heaven will be immortal.

 

[posthuman]

You seem fixated on a single verse, while ignoring others that plainly state, that there will be no mortal flesh in Heaven.

hi Sipsey - i don't think anyone is arguing for mortal flesh in the resurrection, but immortal.

exactly as Christ rose, in His very own flesh, and also ascended.

((unless you believe His ascension, witnessed by the apostles as a bodily ascension, was designed to deceive us?))

 

[posthuman]

one of the sticking points in this discussion seems to be the phrase "a spiritual body"

we should notice that it is a "body" described here, not simply a spirit.

we should ask the question, if in our flesh was no sin whatsoever, would it be more accurate to describe that sinless, perfect body as "spiritual" or as "carnal"...?

we know from Romans 5 ((and other places)) that mortality is a result of sin. so what qualities does flesh with no sin have ((like Christ's, for example, in Whose likeness scripture specifically says we will be raised))?

is the flesh of Christ mortal or immortal?

 

[posthuman]

is the flesh of Christ mortal or immortal?

is the body of Jesus banned from the kingdom of God as abominable, or is it welcomed as the "very good" unspoiled creation of the Most High?

 

[posthuman]

a tangential question,

does Satan want sin to be solved or does He want God to annihilate His creation because if what Satan introduced to it?

who wins if the dust is unredeemable?

 

[JohnB]

You seem fixated on a single verse, while ignoring others that plainly state, that there will be no mortal flesh in Heaven.

Jesus had a body of flesh and bone after the resurrection.

 

[posthuman]

1 Corinthians 15:44​

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

4983 sṓma – the physical body.

 

[posthuman]

1 Corinthians 15:44​

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

4983 sṓma – the physical body.

imo Paul here again is explicitly denouncing gnosticism, a heresy prevalent particularly in Greece at the time this letter was written, which held that the physical creation is inherently evil, therefore the resurrection would be purely spiritual with no physical component.

1 Corinthians 15:39​

All flesh is not the same flesh​

​

gnosticism is diametrically opposed to the scripture, and the gnostics were aware of this, so they claimed that the god who created the world is not the true God, which is one reason it's repeated over and over that by Christ all things were createsd, and that the God of the OT is exactly the same Father of Jesus.