Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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Jul 24, 2021
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Jude shows us that eternal fire annihilated people. The fire was unquenchable,

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, sufferingt he vengeance of eternal fire. Jde.1:7

It's very sad how people believe our God permits never ending suffering.
I strongly believe hell it is relic of our pagan past. Why they do not reason through their sin (Isa 1:18) I do not know.
Have faith brother. Babylon will fall. God is Love and all things eternal come from Him. That includes death.. I mean the second death. :)
 

Duckybill

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Aug 16, 2021
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I am calling you a hellmonger because you peddle the false doctrine of hell.
I quote Jesus and you call me a hellmonger, which is really meant for Jesus.
Mark 9:43 (NKJV)
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
You embellish and proclaim your self-righteousness while eviscerating the commandment 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' all the while praising Jesus. Are you a sarcastic atheist mocking the Scriptures?
You're desperate and now LYING.
I call a duck what walks and talk like a duck. Praising Jesus for the eternal torture of a man. What is the difference between a hateful atheist and westboro baptist heretic. If I did call you a fool, you would certainly know it. There would be more vitriol and anger. This is not a hellmongering safe space. I will be blunt as I can as you deem it necessary to teach those who drink milk.
You called me a moron. Do you know what synonym means?
Your point of contention is that this is not a parable. Would not Jesus, mandated as a Prophet, be required to speak plainly. So why this mystery of the torment period. Why as quoted per your fellow hellmonger, the mysteries (verses with musterion G3466) did not contain questions of hell? Is your hell a purgatory or a full fledge torture chamber for eternity?
Jesus did speak plainly. Is that why you're upset? The rich man died but was still alive in the fire "being in torments".
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Exactly. From the mandate of John the Baptist. Same events 4 perspectives. Your eternal hell fire is from "the Unquenchable Fire that burnt the chaff" as elucidated by Luke and Matthew. Not by Mark and John. It was an affectation of speech.

All things eternal come from God. The eternal fire is death. abaddon,
Death never means "cease to exist" in the Bible.
synoptics - (a) and (b) are to be aligned.
Luke3:15And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; 16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose(a): he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire(b): 17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Matt 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear(a): he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire(b): 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.[/QUOTE]
"Unquenchable" indeed!
Mark 1:4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down(a) and unloose. 8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost(b).

John 1:24And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose (a). 28These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost(b). 34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Nothing you just stated denies the "everlasting fire" whatsoever. The eternal Hell fire will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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I strongly believe hell it is relic of our pagan past. Why they do not reason through their sin (Isa 1:18) I do not know.
Have faith brother. Babylon will fall. God is Love and all things eternal come from Him. That includes death.. I mean the second death. :)
Death does not mean "cease to exist". Read the Bible.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Wrong. A "Soul" is the result of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. An infant is a Soul, a person is a Soul, an elephant or a giraffe is a "Soul".

According to Genesis 2:7 KJV, the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and therefore goes out of existence at the disunion of the two when the Breath of Life returns to God and the Body returns to the dust.
Can the soul exist without a body?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Genesis 2:7 KJV says something totally different to that. It says the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. Read it for yourself:

"And God formed man of the Dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and Dust of the ground became a living Soul."
Man is a tri-part being: body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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"Everlasting destruction", a process that NEVER ends.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NKJV)
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
No. There's not such a concept in scripture to substantiate a continual process of being destroyed, but never actually achieving destruction. "Everlasting destruction" literally means destroyed forever, destroyed permanently. It's death or complete annihilation.
 

Duckybill

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No. There's not such a concept in scripture to substantiate a continual process of being destroyed, but never actually achieving destruction. "Everlasting destruction" literally means destroyed forever, destroyed permanently. It's death or complete annihilation.
Then why use "EVERLASTING"? Hmm

You completely ignore the Scriptures.

Rev 20 they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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I quote Jesus and you call me a hellmonger, which is really meant for Jesus.
Mark 9:43 (NKJV)
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--

You're desperate and now LYING.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God sends His Only Begotten Son to redeem our sins with his death. That is all I need to know to follow Christ. Now some peddler comes along says it is fear of hell which drives me. I can understand your hatred of me. But tell me can you not see you insult Jesus and God? Do I need a fire on my buttocks to love my God? Your lack of grace as evident, as with most hellmongers.

You called me a moron. Do you know what synonym means?

When did I call you a moron, post.

Jesus did speak plainly. Is that why you're upset? The rich man died but was still alive in the fire "being in torments".
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"
I am not upset or angry. Atheist speak as you do and deny God, the All Loving God. As they do it in mockery, you do it ... for kicks, pride, one-upmanship...you pick. The passage is a parable.

Death never means "cease to exist" in the Bible.
Are we arguing Shroedinger's cat? How many verses will you contort with your hell doctrine? There is One Immortal Soul. We are not It. Do you know the rephaim? Do you know sheol? Oh, I forgot you are a hell expert. Why are there more mysteries in the bible concerning this stuff?

Matt 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear(a): he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire(b): 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
"Unquenchable" indeed!

Nothing you just stated denies the "everlasting fire" whatsoever. The eternal Hell fire will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
Yes, the eternal fire is death when the God forgets you forever and ever. God is the eternal in all your eternals. So fear God not your pagan hell.

Your venom is showing.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God sends His Only Begotten Son to redeem our sins with his death. That is all I need to know to follow Christ. Now some peddler comes along says it is fear of hell which drives me. I can understand your hatred of me. But tell me can you not see you insult Jesus and God? Do I need a fire on my buttocks to love my God? Your lack of grace as evident, as with most hellmongers.
You're calling me a "peddler" and "hellmonger" because I quote Jesus. Good luck on Judgment Day! I don't hate you. Stop lying!
When did I call you a moron, post.
Perhaps it was someone else.
I am not upset or angry. Atheist speak as you do and deny God, the All Loving God. As they do it in mockery, you do it ... for kicks, pride, one-upmanship...you pick.
Do you know what will happen to "all liars"?
The passage is a parable.
You have ZERO proof. Abraham, Moses and Lazarus are LITERAL Biblical people.

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"
Are we arguing Shroedinger's cat? How many verses will you contort with your hell doctrine? There is One Immortal Soul. We are not It. Do you know the rephaim? Do you know sheol? Oh, I forgot you are a hell expert. Why are there more mysteries in the bible concerning this stuff?
Yes, the eternal fire is death when the God forgets you forever and ever. God is the eternal in all your eternals. So fear God not your pagan hell.
Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell
Your venom is showing.
Believing Jesus is "venom"?

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And
they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Then why use "EVERLASTING"?
I didn’t write the Bible, but resurrection is a thing in the Bible. Apparently it’s possible to be destroyed, be resurrected, then be destroyed again permanently or with everlasting effect. Everlasting destruction is the second death.

Rev 20 they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER.
This says only the devil is tormented day and night for ever.

Revelation 20:10
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

As always, we must carefully read the scripture, calmly and openly, to make sure we’re not seeing ghosts. Often times, when we get a belief in our mind about what we want to see, we just see it. Try to resist that.

As always, we must weigh the full counsel of the scriptures. As you will see below, the devil will be destroyed, not tormented forever.

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Now I strongly encourage you to do a scriptural study of how the word forever is used in the Bible. Sometimes forever is eternal, but other times it isn’t. The verses I showed you above is one of those instances of forever not being forever.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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I didn’t write the Bible, but resurrection is a thing in the Bible. Apparently it’s possible to be destroyed, be resurrected, then be destroyed again permanently or with everlasting effect. Everlasting destruction is the second death.

This says only the devil is tormented day and night for ever.

Revelation 20:10
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
No it doesn't!
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
As always, we must carefully read the scripture, calmly and openly, to make sure we’re not seeing ghosts. Often times, when we get a belief in our mind about what we want to see, we just see it. Try to resist that.

As always, we must weigh the full counsel of the scriptures. As you will see below, the devil will be destroyed, not tormented forever.

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Now I strongly encourage you to do a scriptural study of how the word forever is used in the Bible. Sometimes forever is eternal, but other times it isn’t. The verses I showed you above is one of those instances of forever not being forever.
It does not say the Devil will be destroyed! Please stop making stuff up!
 
Mar 4, 2020
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No it doesn't!
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I don’t see the word “they” anywhere there in the Greek. The KJV translators didn’t use “they” meaning “they” is possibly a later addition, but I’m not sure yet. In any case, forever isn’t literally forever in Rev. 20:10 and there’s plenty of evidence for that that I might go into tomorrow.

It does not say the Devil will be destroyed! Please stop making stuff up!
Hebrews 2:14 says the devil will be destroyed. Please read it again.

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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I don’t see the word “they” anywhere there in the Greek. The KJV translators didn’t use “they” meaning “they” is possibly a later addition, but I’m not sure yet. In any case, forever isn’t literally forever in Rev. 20:10 and there’s plenty of evidence for that that I might go into tomorrow.
Nearly every English translation says you're wrong.
Hebrews 2:14 says the devil will be destroyed. Please read it again.

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
It does not say the Devil will "cease to exist".

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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I don’t see the word “they” anywhere there in the Greek. The KJV translators didn’t use “they” meaning “they” is possibly a later addition, but I’m not sure yet. In any case, forever isn’t literally forever in Rev. 20:10 and there’s plenty of evidence for that that I might go into tomorrow.
I truly doubt that you're qualified to rewrite our Bibles. Are you JW?
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
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You've made that point before, thank you. What you need to do is focus on what is a way more important issue at hand:

  • that making the Rich Man and Lazarus a literal story introduces a host of irreconcilable Biblical contradictions which must be ignored in order to continue to make the passage support Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment doctrine, or,...
  • we must accept the passage for what it is: a parable in which things happen which cannot and do not happen in real experience
What would be the MOST important issue at hand is. "What lesson does the Parable Teach?"
You say that it must be accepted that it is a parable. OK is that the lesson? "It is a parable" and we all walk away with nothing but "it is a parable?" Not to be taken literal. That is not the lesson and everyone knows that even SDA members.

So what is the lesson or how do you interpret it, so that your explanation (not being literal) communicates what Jesus wanted us to learn (but not a literal explanation)? I am trying to work with you here.

And your answer is to explain the parable as an allegory. ( :rolleyes: as dumb as that is for those educated in hebrew literature) I will attempt to follow that reasoning.. let's see if I am following you and your SDA friends.

1) Allegorical meaning = The Rich man is not literal but means the unbelieving Jews / Pharisees that reject mercy and don't like it when gentiles follow Jesus and repent.
2) Allegorical meaning = The beggar is not literal but means the believing gentiles that believe in Jesus and repent ant that the Pharisees despised.
3) Allegorical meaning = The bosom of Abraham is not literal but means the blessings that the repentant believing gentiles will inherit in place of what would have gone to the Pharisees but they miss out.
4) Allegorical meaning = The torment, thirst, flames is not literal but ......(it is just a parable?) You have no allegorical meaning for the torment and flames?

You give one to everything else even the corresponding blessings of the allegorical beggar/believing gentiles. buy you assigned no allegorical meaning to the torments.? In order to complete this parable turned into an allegory theory of yours wouldn't you HAVE to complete it with something like.
5) Allegorical meaning = The torments are not literal but are nonexistance? Does it make sense that Jesus would tell you an allegory where the torment and flames were an allegory for no conscience, not feeling, no pain.

You are insisting that the Pain is an allegory for No Pain. And that is just dumb. And you know it. Give up this SDA nonsense and come home before it is too late.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Nearly every English translation says you're wrong.

It does not say the Devil will "cease to exist".


Hebrews 2:14 says the devil will be destroyed.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The KJV doesn’t use they.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I truly doubt that you're qualified to rewrite our Bibles. Are you JW?
There’s a Greek word for they and the New Testament uses it liberally. It’s absent from Revelation 20:10. This isn’t rocket science.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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Hebrews 2:14 says the devil will be destroyed.

The KJV doesn’t use they.
Make up your mind. You say the Devil will cease to exist and then you admit he will "be tormented day and night forever and ever".
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Make up your mind. You say the Devil will cease to exist and then you admit he will "be tormented day and night forever and ever".
I’m afraid you’re imagining things. I said no such things.