Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
No. Are you Catholic?
I had a good reason for asking if you are JW. JW's also deny the "everlasting fire". I'm not Catholic. I'm a Bible believer. Why would you ask if I'm Catholic?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,695
13,514
113
Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil
this is the Greek word that there was translated 'destroy'


Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).
["2673 (katargéō) means 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,' according to TDNT (1.453)" (J. Rodman Williams, Renewal Theology "God, the World & Redemption," 389).]

it does not mean 'annihilate'
it means he will be rendered powerless.

it's right there in the context:

God will through death render powerless him who had the power of death
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,695
13,514
113
There’s a Greek word for they and the New Testament uses it liberally. It’s absent from Revelation 20:10. This isn’t rocket science.
here's the Greek in Revelation 20:10

Capture.PNG

English is not like Greek. in Greek, and a lot of other languages, that one verb is conjugated differently depending on present tense, past tense future tense, whether it's yourself, one person, or many people.

so in Greek it's just one word, the verb 'torment' - but it's tense is 'future indicative perfect, 3rd person plural'

future: it's later, not now
indicative: it's what will be
perfect: it's definitely going to be, it's not iffy
3rd person: not the speaker, not the reader, but the subject being talked about
plural: more than one person


all that adds up to 'torment' in the Greek text is written in such a way that it absolutely means "they will be tormented" in English.


in Spanish for example the verb 'to torment' is 'tormentar'
to say 'they will be tormented' ((4 words in English))
is serán tormentados ((2 words in Spanish))
in Greek it's just one word.

so just because you don't see the word 'they' specifically doesn't mean the idea of 'they' is not present in the text.
 
C

ChristianTonyB

Guest
If the passage were literal, you'd probably be right.

We can't say we're theologically consistent Christians but then demand two diametrically opposed Biblical views on death are both true.
i don’t base my assessments on merely literal meanings, but rather what the Spirit is saying. It’s a warning Pm, and we are being spiritually and soulfully self destructive if we don’t take heed to it.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,695
13,514
113
If the passage were literal, you'd probably be right.

We can't say we're theologically consistent Christians but then demand two diametrically opposed Biblical views on death are both true.
so you're left with two choices:

  1. you are correct; Christ is a liar teaching doctrines of demons & deceiving the people
  2. you are incorrect; your understanding of Genesis 2:7 is flawed

i mean, is it really so hard to guess which choice is the right one?
lol
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
Forever: (Gr. "aionios") -- "duration, either undefiend but NOT endless, or undefined because endless".

"...and never shalt thou (Satan) be anymore." - Ezekiel 28:19 KJV
then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. Exo.21:6

He means until the servant dies.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
I had a good reason for asking if you are JW. JW's also deny the "everlasting fire". I'm not Catholic. I'm a Bible believer. Why would you ask if I'm Catholic?
I had a good reason for asking if you're Catholic, as Catholics interpret the Bible the exact way you do, because they believe in eternal torment. Just seemed like a logical conclusion to me.

Well now that we've cleared the air, I'm also a Bible believer. Any other questions?
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
I strongly believe hell it is relic of our pagan past. Why they do not reason through their sin (Isa 1:18) I do not know.
Have faith brother. Babylon will fall. God is Love and all things eternal come from Him. That includes death.. I mean the second death. :)
The fire that will torment the unsaved is the appearing of God. It's the judgement seat of Christ,

If someone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1Cor.3:15

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; 2Cor.5:-11

For our God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29

he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev.14:10

the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Thes.2:8

Being tormented "forever and ever" means the ungodly will be tormented by having all the sins they committed in this life (in other words, forever and ever) exposed. After this, they are annihilated.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
this is the Greek word that there was translated 'destroy'


Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.
HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).
["2673 (katargéō) means 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,' according to TDNT (1.453)" (J. Rodman Williams, Renewal Theology "God, the World & Redemption," 389).]

it does not mean 'annihilate'
it means he will be rendered powerless.


it's right there in the context:

God will through death render powerless him who had the power of death
Just to be clear, I'm aware of that and I did take it into consideration before deciding it doesn't mean what you say it does. Destroy is a good English translation for Hebrews 2:14 and I'll try to concisely explain why I think that.

The only way to make something completely inoperative or "bring to nought" is to destroy it. So the definition of the word checks out. It also matches the full counsel of the scriptures.

Here are some verses that support this:

1 Cor. 15:26 KJV
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Revelation 20:10 KJV
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In summary, these scriptures basically mean that whosoever is not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire, though painful, results in death and not being "rendered powerless." Effectually, death is being destroyed. The devil, beast and false prophet, and everyone not in the book of life are put to death.

I can tell you're handy with a lexicon and concordance. What does it say about death?
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Then explain! How can the Devil cease to exist and then be "tormented day and night forever and ever"???
Sure no problem. Simply, "forever" isn't literally forever in Revelation 20:10. As I said in an earlier post, forever isn't always forever where forever can be proven to not be forever. Probably the most well-known example is that Sodom and Gomorrah will burn forever when in the present day it isn't burning.

Now to answer your question, the devil can't be tormented forever if he's put to death. As I will show you below, the devil is cast into the lake of fire to receive the "second death." Death means the cessation of all bodily functions, thoughts, feelings, etc. The devil will be destroyed this way.

Revelation 20:10 KJV
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now it's my turn. Why do you insist, like the Catholics do, that the devil will have eternal life in the lake of fire and never die? The Bible says that the devil is put to death. How does someone get tormented forever, also put to death (But not really dying so they were never put to death) when sometimes forever doesn't mean forever?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,172
1,571
113
68
Brighton, MI
You're not asking enough questions!!!

You forgot to include, "Why was it REMOVED from the KJV? The reason you didn't ask that is because you are a either a Jesuit Futurist or Jesuit Preterist and NOT a Protestant Historicist like me. Protestant Historicists know the greatest threat to the truth is the Papacy, the predicted Antichrist of Bible prophecy, and thus, we know that all these former Catholics who became Protestant Reformers among which were the translators of the KJV Bible who left Catholicism and joined the ranks of Protestantism often brought with them Papal errors, which were only later discovered to be such and then abandoned.

As these great men studied further and further, they found the Apocrypha to contain many gnostic corruptions, such as "almsgiving doth procure salavation" and immediately understood why the Papacy insisted on it. We can buy salvation? Well, that flies right in the face of Luther's 95 Theses against Indulgences, right?

I keep telling so many of you that your doctrines and eschatology are so in line with Papal error, I fear you will all one day just up and join the damned thing.
There are no Gnostic teachings in those books. The 'Apocrypha' was in every Christian Bible until 1828 .

Why did Martin Luther include them?

Why did the Septuagint contain them?

Please answer the questions and these I already asked.

Why did Luther remove 7 books from the Bible?
https://pennbookcenter.com/why-did-martin-luther-remove-7-books-from-the-bible/
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/why...YjLC-fmfT25XZhR1AdGHr0U8pUEELhOEaAlF3EALw_wcB


https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/defending-the-deuterocanonicals-996
https://www.catholic.com/qa/didnt-the-catholic-church-add-to-the-bible

One does teach that Abraham was saved by grace.
Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (First Maccabees 2:52).


My position is they are a historical source used with salt in my coffee.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,695
13,514
113
I can tell you're handy with a lexicon and concordance. What does it say about death?
it says that people without Christ are dead - even while their bodies are animate.
you and i were both dead, as God defines death, before we came to Him.
we existed. we existed being dead.
clearly 'death' as God defines it is not annihilation. God doesn't define 'life' as existence, either.

existence/non-existence and life/death are wholly separate qualities.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
it says that people without Christ are dead - even while their bodies are animate.
you and i were both dead, as God defines death, before we came to Him.

we existed. we existed being dead.
clearly 'death' as God defines it is not annihilation. God doesn't define 'life' as existence, either.


existence/non-existence and life/death are wholly separate qualities.
Then according to you, no one gets the destroyed and everyone lives forever. I couldn't disagree more. I could probably write a lengthy dissertation explaining why that's the wrong way to understand the Bible. But to each their own. I have all of the support I need to believe in death for the wicked and eternal life for the righteous.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,172
1,571
113
68
Brighton, MI
Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning with "everlasting fire"?

Pretty sure their under the Dead Sea not on fire...but didn't they suffer the "vengeance of everlasting fire"?

So, can "everlasting fire" refer to the RESULT, and not the process concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? Of course that is the only way of looking at it that makes sense: the city was burned up and is no longer on fire.

Can we also look the same way at the reward of the wicked?
Genesis 19:21-25
Easy-to-Read Version
21 The angel said to Lot, “Very well, I’ll let you do that. I will not destroy that town. 22 But run there quickly. I cannot destroy Sodom until you are safely in that town.” (That town is named Zoar,[a] because it is a small town.)

Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
23 Lot was entering the town as the sun came up, 24 and the Lord began to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. He caused fire and burning sulfur to fall from the sky. 25 He destroyed the whole valley—all the cities, the people living in the cities, and all the plants in the valley.

As we can see there is no eternal fire in the original text.

Jude 1:7

Literal Standard Version
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these [messengers], having given themselves to whoredom, and having gone after other flesh, have been set before [as] an example, undergoing the justice of continuous fire.

On eternal fire, you committed a well known among scholars word study fallacy.

Semantic Anachronism
Definition: Fallacy where a late definition of a word is read back into earlier literature.

http://exegeticaltools.com/2015/11/10/exegetical-fallacies-word-studies-part-1/

Clearly Jude used an exaggeration.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,172
1,571
113
68
Brighton, MI
Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Saying God can does not mean he will. in fact, why not simply kill the soul and body of unbelievers before death.
God knows whom will accept Jesus even before time began. To borrow someone's idea, would that not be more loving?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,172
1,571
113
68
Brighton, MI
If the passage were literal, you'd probably be right.

We can't say we're theologically consistent Christians but then demand two diametrically opposed Biblical views on death are both true.
Since born again Christians believes the Holy Spirit is teaching them, why the disagreements?

Your answer can apply to everyone everywhere.