Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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All things "eternal" come only from God and God alone. His punishment is everlasting as in final (static forever) not eternal(dynamic forever - resurrection and torture) .
Rev 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those judged unworthy will pass and be forgotten. As if no memory of them ever having existed.
Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

We will all face the Judge, best keep your hands and forehead clean. Forget babylon (Zechariah 3) and don't weep for the pagan tammuz (Ezekial 8)
Every Christian knows in his or her heart that torment without end is contrary to justice.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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Every Christian knows in his or her heart that torment without end is contrary to justice.
Every Bible believer KNOWS that Jesus warned us about the eternal Hell fire, no matter how many of Satan's children call Jesus a liar.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Is anything in the Bible "literal" to you? How about eternal life?
Now it's my turn. Why do you insist, like the Catholics do, that the devil will have eternal life in the lake of fire and never die? The Bible says that the devil is put to death. How does someone get tormented forever, also put to death (But not really dying so they were never put to death) when sometimes forever doesn't mean forever?
 

Duckybill

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Aug 16, 2021
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Now it's my turn. Why do you insist, like the Catholics do, that the devil will have eternal life in the lake of fire and never die?
Why do you insist that there is no eternal Hell, like JW's do?
The Bible says that the devil is put to death.
No it doesn't.
How does someone get tormented forever, also put to death (But not really dying so they were never put to death) when sometimes forever doesn't mean forever?
Let's try this again.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 

Duckybill

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Aug 16, 2021
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JWs are the only ones who believe the soul be can destroyed? lol
So you don't believe in "eternal life"? It's the EXACT same Greek word.

Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into
eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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They will certainly wish they were "annihilated".

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And
they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The unsaved are tormented "day and night forever" because the sins they committed "day and night forever" (or, their entire lives) is exposed by our Lord. They're not tormented eternally.
 

Duckybill

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Aug 16, 2021
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The unsaved are tormented "day and night forever" because the sins they committed "day and night forever" (or, their entire lives) is exposed by our Lord. They're not tormented eternally.
You totally contradicted yourself!
 
Mar 4, 2020
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So you don't believe in "eternal life"? It's the EXACT same Greek word.

Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into
eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Weigh more of the scriptures to get a better idea of what the "eternal punishment" is referring to.

The exact same Greek word is used here:

John 3:36 (NASB)
36The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB)
9These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

We can gather from a variety of verses that eternal life is not congruent with eternal punishment because the eternal punishment is they "will not see life." They will have eternal destruction - eternal destruction means ruin and death. That's consistent with the end of everyone not written in the book of life: they go to the second death. This means that those who have eternal punishment do not have eternal life.

This isn't a New Testament teaching either, the Old Testament has a lot of references to the death of the wicked soul. This is the typical life and death dichotomy of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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Weigh more of the scriptures to get a better idea of what the "eternal punishment" is referring to.

The exact same Greek word is used here:

John 3:36 (NASB)
36The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB)
9These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

We can gather from a variety of verses that eternal life is not congruent with eternal punishment because the eternal punishment is they "will not see life." They will have eternal destruction - eternal destruction means ruin and death. That's consistent with the end of everyone not written in the book of life: they go to the second death. This means that those who have eternal punishment do not have eternal life.

This isn't a New Testament teaching either, the Old Testament has a lot of references to the death of the wicked soul. This is the typical life and death dichotomy of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
You can't deny eternal punishment and believe eternal life! They are the EXACT same Greek word!
Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
 
Mar 4, 2020
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You can't deny eternal punishment and believe eternal life! They are the EXACT same Greek word!
Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Right and the wicked don’t have eternal life. The eternal punishment is death with no possibility of resurrection. I hope this has been an enlightening discussion for you.

Romans 6:24 KJV
23For the wages of sin isdeath; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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"This fallacy also relates to finding the meaning of a word by dissecting the meaning of each of its parts and then defining it as the sum of the parts. A classic example of this is in I Corinthians 4.1. Paul says, “So then, men ought to regard us as servants (hypēretas) of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.” Many years ago, a commentator by the name of R.C. Trench popularized the interpretation that hypēretas, which is made up of two words ‘under’ and ‘to row’, means ‘under rower.’ Many preachers have waxed eloquent about the ships at that time being propelled by slaves under the deck who row to the beat of the slave master’s drum. Thus, Paul, and consequently all Christians, are said to be ‘lowly servants’ sharing the gospel to the beat of God’s drum.

https://dradney.wordpress.com/2010/04/22/word-study-fallacies-2/
I am a purveyor of digested data. Of what you speak, I leave it to the more well read. There are 2 translations G3466 in the Strong's. Occult mysteries (knowledge only the initiates of some secret within a hierarchical belief system) and the New Testament mysteries (that is not fully understood by the faithful, that which is hidden from the faithless and that which is unknowable).
All my own interpretations match with the latter, not the former. There is no hell in the mysteries from my reading. Specify which mystery permits the interpretation of hell.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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You just called Jesus a liar.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Never would call Jesus a liar. I am saying other things. :)
Matt 25:41 seems to refer to the third of heaven followed the the dragons tail. (Rev 12:4)

As per Rev 20
The satanic spirit was suppressed for a long time.
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

The second scrubbing. He was released again to see who who would adhere to the accuser's philosophy, the false doctrines.
7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

Fire from God. There is you eternal fire.
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Forever is literally aeon of aeons. In other words it is up to God as it always was. Consider Berean Literal Bible
10 And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

When is the end of the epoch.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

My translation is death and the grave will be annihilated. The presence of God will eternally be in the lives of the faithful.
The hellmonger's interpretation is the ghost in hell and hell will be thrown in the lake of hell. Kind of loopy snake eating the snakes tail. Another pagan concept.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Every Christian knows in his or her heart that torment without end is contrary to justice.
well there sure are a lot of people who think they know better than God, i'll give you that.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,695
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113
Never would call Jesus a liar. I am saying other things. :)
Matt 25:41 seems to refer to the third of heaven followed the the dragons tail. (Rev 12:4)

As per Rev 20
The satanic spirit was suppressed for a long time.
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

The second scrubbing. He was released again to see who who would adhere to the accuser's philosophy, the false doctrines.
7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

Fire from God. There is you eternal fire.
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Forever is literally aeon of aeons. In other words it is up to God as it always was. Consider Berean Literal Bible
10 And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

When is the end of the epoch.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

My translation is death and the grave will be annihilated. The presence of God will eternally be in the lives of the faithful.
The hellmonger's interpretation is the ghost in hell and hell will be thrown in the lake of hell. Kind of loopy snake eating the snakes tail. Another pagan concept.
you really think "sheep and goats" is about angels?

i think you should go read Matthew 25 again, right now, and see if the context is angels or humans.
when did angels see a stranger, or the weak or the hungry and thirsty, or those in prison, and refuse to help them?
when did angels turn a blind eye to '
the least of these' ?

IMHO, you're nuts.

  • SO
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  • MILK
 
Jul 24, 2021
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Every Christian knows in his or her heart that torment without end is contrary to justice.
Most christians believe that God is just a Concept and not a Person. Their wicked imaginings, vices and vanities in their mind can fearlessly be heaped onto the Concept. It is said God is our One True Love. So why imply, infer, accept insults about your One True Love. Enjoy the love of God's Person or fear the Concept of God.
2Tim 1:6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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you really think "sheep and goats" is about angels?

i think you should go read Matthew 25 again, right now, and see if the context is angels or humans.
when did angels see a stranger, or the weak or the hungry and thirsty, or those in prison, and refuse to help them?
when did angels turn a blind eye to '
the least of these' ?

IMHO, you're nuts.

  • SO
  • MUCH
  • MILK
Do you just only read the paragraph synopsis? :)

Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Where is the sheep and goats in devil and his angels? Maybe the goat is the devil like that satan icon thing and his angels are the black sheeps...er... I'll let you explain.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Your opinion that the OT does not teach about torment waiting for the wicked dead has already been proven wrong.
Of course I believe torment awaits the wicked dead...it's just not eternal.
Your decision to use verses that are from men who were expressing their opinions about the dead and trying to push it on ignorant people to hammer them into submission does not work for the well read. We happened to agree with the parable that Moses and the Prophets do warn about torment awaiting the wicked dead. You reject those verses and chose the ones that by taken out of context fit your erroneous teachings.
What you call "men's opinions", I call fact. Solomon is clear the dead "know not anything" and they have no memory, emotions, ability to speak, lay plans, do work, come back and haunt the living, etc.
But I have another parable for you:
There were two Christians, one believed that there was a place of torment that waited for the wicked dead and included it in his preaching and the other told people that the wicked would not know anything when they died.

They both died and went to heaven and then the one found out that he was wrong and there was a place of torment for the wicked dead.

Then he said, Oh Lord, I was wrong, please send that someone back to warn my friends that there really is a place of torment for the wicked dead.

And he was told, "They have the scriptures. If they do not believe what the scriptures say about the place of torment that awaits the wicked dead, then they will not believe even if one goes to them from the dead and warns them about the place of torment awaiting the wicked dead"

End of parable. :)
What is opinion is the lie of Satan that the dead really aren't dead...they're still "alive" somewhere disembodied and doing things, remembering things, saying things, laying plans, interacting with the living like "Samuel". '

No, the dead are dead. They know nothing, feel nothing, say nothing, plan nothing, discern nothing, etc.

But, I can understand why the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd refuses to address the contradictions which arise from making the Rich Man and Lazarus a literal story: they simply have nothing to say. They know the dead DO NOT receive resurrection bodies until the resurrection at the end of time, which incidentally is still future, but to confess this is irrefutable proof that the passage is a parable is a major reduction to the "weight of evidence" they claim supports Immortal Soul doctrine. Again, these dead have bodies, converse, converse while completely engulfed in flame, lay plans to save their living brethren, etc., all of which is impossible.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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You're playing word games to avoid the Scriptures.
You're free to ignore the evidence all you want. There are more and more who are coming to a knowledge of the truth about the lie of "eternal torment" - because they see people like you unable to answer the arguments that confront you...like how is it that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the "vengeance of eternal fire" yet they're not burning today and are under the Dead Sea.

They see such unanswerable arguments and they think, "wow, so God truly IS a God of love Who will put out of their misery those who refuse to give up sin and learn to love Him."

The best ammunition against Eternal Torment doctrine is an attack on the Annihilationist messenger instead of addressing the points of his message.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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So, in other words, you are saying we must accept it as a parable, and then interpret it as allegorical? Ok, weird approach and unique to only you on planet earth, but going with that strange approach you have told us what the allegorical meaning of several things are but you have yet to explain your idea of what the allegorical meaning of the torment could be?

Saying it is not to be taken literally, then giving allegorical meanings to the characters such as the rich man an lazarus, but not continuing with an allegorical explanation for the torments is neither the way a parable, or an allegory would work.

So now, you've insisted on calling it a parable, but start to interpret it as an allegory, and then quit in the middle and think people are supposed to see it the way you do? No one who is intellectually honest can violate that many rules of literature. It's just raw unadulterated ignorance about parables and allegories and I don't care how smart you think your leaders were they are making a fool out of you if you are following their lead in explaining this parable as and allegory and quitting before you assign a meaning to the torments. No one can agree with this nonsense.
I'm saying we must accept the elements contained therein are symbolic and must be interpreted. Right away, it is evident the "Rich Man" symbolizes the "Jews" who are the "sons of Abraham" and have Abraham as their "father". Lazarus symbolizes the Gentile outsiders, to whom the Jews refer as "dogs".