Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[ChristianSubMissionary]

What makes you think that was Satan masquerading as Samuel?

If you really want to know, I will thoroughly detail it from scripture, but if you already made up your mind, I won't waste the time.

Or, if you want to be the teacher, I'll let you, but that means you have to answer all my questions.

Which do you prefer? I teach, you ask. You teach, I ask. Or have you already made up your mind irrespective of what I might share from the context?

 

[Phoneman-777]

in Hades, where he (his spirit) was in torment,

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 KJV
[19] For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. [21] Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward (at his death), and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward (at its birth) to the earth?

At death, the Spirit of any living creature returns to God, and their body to the dust. Spirits don't go to a place of torment at death.

 

[Phoneman-777]

While it is true that no murderer has eternal life, that does not mean that he ceases to exist. You just don't understand the meaning of death, which is conscious awareness in separation from God.

Respectfully, you don't understand that death is the opposite of life, not a continuation thereof!

Your definition that death = "separation from God" is an inference based on bad eschatology resulting in the application of every text which teaches extinction of being to the body: "their love, hatred, envy is perished"; "his thoughts perish"; "praise not the Lord"; "know not anything"; "land of forgetfulness"; "return no more to his house"; "in the grave"; and many many more of verses like these are said to apply to the "body" as if God figured that when we look upon a dead body, we were too stupid to conclude there isn't anything going its skull.

No, friend, those verses pertain to the entire "living soul" which at death, ceases to know, think, feel, plan, praise, discern, and every other thing a person experiences while living.

Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable

"Samuel" could not have been Samuel because "he shall return no more to his house"

The misplaced comma in Jesus' promise to the thief leads to a wrong conclusion

"...absent from the body and present with the Lord" is not a declarative "either/or" statement, but Paul's statement of preference to skip the intermediate state of lying dead "naked" and "unclothed" buried without a body awaiting the resurrection, and simply go straight to be with Jesus, which Paul said was "at the last trump".

The other 2 or 3 "proof texts" you have are as easily shown to teach Annihilation, not Immortal Soul doctrine.

 

[Phoneman-777]

What makes you think that was Satan masquerading as Samuel? There is nothing in the context that would suggest that.

I say again, does scripture not say that the body returns to the dust of the earth?

Believe what you will. As for me, I know the truth regarding the rich man and Lazarus.

Because the dead can't return to the land of the living, according to Job and Solomon, who both also say the dead don't know anything or perceive anything. Therefore "Samuel" was not Samuel, but an imposter, which is why the Lord did not want anyone engaging in Spiritualism.

 

[tourist]

How does the bible define forever? How does the Bible define everlasting?

Both are very interesting questions.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The unjust will also receive a resurrected body at the great white throne judgment, one that cannot be destroyed for their punishment in the lake of fire.

Only the righteous recieve a body that "cannot be destroyed aka "immortal". The wicked, therefore, come out the ground with a mere "mortal" body, which can be destroyed.

How do you conclude that death = separation from God? Other than from the Rich Man and Lazarus, which I believe is a parable because of the contradictions which arise by making it literal.

 

[Phoneman-777]

While it is true that no murderer has eternal life, that does not mean that he ceases to exist. You just don't understand the meaning of death, which is conscious awareness in separation from God.

Jesus refers to death as "sleep". We know that those who are "asleep" aren't conscience, so can we conclude that those who "sleep the sleep of death" are anything else but unconscious?

 

[Duckybill]

I believe Jesus with all my heart. Yes, I am a Christian since a few years back now, having called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation by God's grace through faith in Jesus' shed blood of Calvary.

What I do not believe is your assumed definition of the words I believe in as they are found and written in scripture. I fully believe every single word of scripture (KJB). I don't believe men's private interpretation or definitions of those words. I believe God in His own interpretation or definition of those words (Isaiah 28:10,13).

How can you believe in Jesus if you don't believe what He clearly said?

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Duckybill]

I will be taking my bible lessons from Stephen, not some proselytizer of hell who is unable to reason though his sin. The hell doctrine is a trifecta of blasphemies. I advise you to follow the examples of the bible as your mind is held sway by pagan fables. You severely lack discernment.

Now you're calling Jesus a blasphemer?

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus refers to death as "sleep". We know that those who are "asleep" aren't conscience, so can we conclude that those who "sleep the sleep of death" are anything else but unconscious?

Your simple argument is that the Bible doesn't mean what it CLEARLY says.

 

[John146]

Because the dead can't return to the land of the living, according to Job and Solomon, who both also say the dead don't know anything or perceive anything. Therefore "Samuel" was not Samuel, but an imposter, which is why the Lord did not want anyone engaging in Spiritualism.

Scripture clearly states it was Samuel not an imposter.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Your simple argument is that the Bible doesn't mean what it CLEARLY says.

What was your argument?

Ezek 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

How can you believe in Jesus if you don't believe what He clearly said?

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I believe what Jesus said in context. I do not believe what you think he said, since you think Jesus said unending torment. Look up aiwnian and answer my two previous texts and examples.

 

[Duckybill]

What was your argument?

Ezek 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

I suggest that you read the NT. Jesus teaches us what will happen to those who don't believe in the "everlasting fire".

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Duckybill]

I believe what Jesus said in context. I do not believe what you think he said, since you think Jesus said unending torment. Look up aiwnian and answer my two previous texts and examples.

I quoted Jesus. Believe Him or not! Don't you even know what the NT says about Hell?

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

I suggest that you read the NT.

I have.

Mat 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

1Jn 3:8: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

1Cor 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Destroy.

 

[Duckybill]

I have.

Mat 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

1Jn 3:8: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

1Cor 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Destroy.

Honestly you sound like JW. Hell will be filled with those who don't believe in Hell.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

I quoted Jesus. Believe Him or not! Don't you even know what the NT says about Hell?

I quoted Jesus also in context. I don't believe Him. I know exactly what the NT says about hell, hellfire, lake of fire. I keep telling you, but you are hard of seeing as Isaiah says.

 

[Duckybill]

I quoted Jesus also in context. I don't believe Him. I know exactly what the NT says about hell, hellfire, lake of fire. I keep telling you, but you are hard of seeing as Isaiah says.

I appreciate you saying I can't burn in Hell "forever and ever". Wish I could say the same for you!

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Honestly you sound like JW. Hell will be filled with those who don't believe in Hell.

They got it from us (though they slightly twist it), and from the reformation and Christians going all the way back. I provided those quotes in my links.