Irresistible Grace ?
- Thread starter throughfaith
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
“Not by [human] might, nor by [human] power, but by My Spirit,” presents God’s Method of accomplishing His Work. Everything that has ever been done on this Earth, as it regards the Godhead, has been done by the Holy Spirit, with the exception of Christ and His Crucifixion; however, the Holy Spirit even superintended that from beginning to end [Lk. 4:18-19].
If it is claimed to be for the Lord, whatever is being done must be done by the Moving, Operation, Power, and Person of the Holy Spirit through Believers. Otherwise, it will not be recognized by God; in fact, it will be constituted as a “work of the flesh” [Rom. 8:1].”
“Says the LORD of Hosts,” presents God’s Supreme Personal Power over everything in the material and Spiritual universe. All is organized under His Command. As well, the word “Hosts,” as used here, is associated with warfare and relates to the word “armies.” In other words, He is the “LORD of Armies.”)”
JSM
If it is claimed to be for the Lord, whatever is being done must be done by the Moving, Operation, Power, and Person of the Holy Spirit through Believers. Otherwise, it will not be recognized by God; in fact, it will be constituted as a “work of the flesh” [Rom. 8:1].”
“Says the LORD of Hosts,” presents God’s Supreme Personal Power over everything in the material and Spiritual universe. All is organized under His Command. As well, the word “Hosts,” as used here, is associated with warfare and relates to the word “armies.” In other words, He is the “LORD of Armies.”)”
JSM
"Deuteronomy, posted
@throughfaith[/USER], we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.
Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").
As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,
Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.
God bless you!
~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary (take note of v11).
@throughfaith[/USER], we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.
Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").
As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,
Acts 13
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.
God bless you!
~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary (take note of v11).
Romans 3
9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.
Congratulations!
"throughfaith, posted
The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .
But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .
And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .
3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.
4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.
5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit
Please could you explain how the reformers use John 6:44 for better understanding. Thanks
The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .
But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .
And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .
3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.
4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.
5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit
Please could you explain how the reformers use John 6:44 for better understanding. Thanks
So, you believe we, the body of Christ, are to live and teach what Christ taught the Jews prior to His resurrection? Is the sermon on the mount church doctrine? Are we to do the following:
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
-
1
- Show all
Ive had this convo with many dispies already. Yuo guys always pull up these examples.
Its not hard to figure out whats applicable today and what isnt. The temple was destroyed, there is no more priesthood, thats inapplicable since ad70.
How about the teachings of Jesus about love your neighbor as yourself? Repeated in Leviticus, gospels AND Paul.
How about the teaching of: love your enemies, honor your elders, deny yourself, love God, love your neighbor, render to ceaser whats to ceaser, do not swear an oath, dont pray like the hypocrites out in the open, care for those in distress ETC ETC.
Now why would we throw away these teachings????????? Or the 1 John teachings or whatever teachings. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say the church should only listen to Paul. Thats RIDICILOUS, and no one in the early church believeed that. These people would be CRYING TEARS OF JOY if they got the sermon on the mount on their hands. Not many people had Scripture back then. No time to pick and choose some weird "rightly divided" package.
Its not hard to figure out whats applicable today and what isnt. The temple was destroyed, there is no more priesthood, thats inapplicable since ad70.
How about the teachings of Jesus about love your neighbor as yourself? Repeated in Leviticus, gospels AND Paul.
How about the teaching of: love your enemies, honor your elders, deny yourself, love God, love your neighbor, render to ceaser whats to ceaser, do not swear an oath, dont pray like the hypocrites out in the open, care for those in distress ETC ETC.
Now why would we throw away these teachings????????? Or the 1 John teachings or whatever teachings. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say the church should only listen to Paul. Thats RIDICILOUS, and no one in the early church believeed that. These people would be CRYING TEARS OF JOY if they got the sermon on the mount on their hands. Not many people had Scripture back then. No time to pick and choose some weird "rightly divided" package.
-
1
- Show all
There is VERY LITTLE in the words and teachings of Christ which is specifically geared to the Jews, or issues regarding the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses). Indeed the Gospel of John has nothing in this regard. So you are quite mistaken in claiming that the words of Christ in the Gospels do not apply to Christians.
-
2
- Show all
Correct. And people should be aware that there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between Dispensationalists (such as myself) and Hyper-Dispensationalists (such as John 146). Hyper-Dispensationalism is rather heretical, in that it creates all kind of false teachings such as what you have been discussing with John.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Well, the church wasn’t even an entity until after the resurrection, but of course there are things learned under the Old Testament. Jesus lived under the old testament. The majority of church doctrine is found in Paul’s epistles. He specifically addresses the body of Christ.
For example, The meek shall inherit the earth. That’s not church doctrine.
For example, The meek shall inherit the earth. That’s not church doctrine.
-
1
- Show all
I would go directly to the third chapter of the Gospel of John, which gives us the words of Christ Himself.
JOHN 3: THE GOSPEL IN A NUTSHELL
THE PHARISEES DID NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
THE ABSOLUTE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH TAUGHT BY CHRIST
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
CHRIST WAS THE DIVINE TEACHER OF ISRAEL AND THE WORLD
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in Heaven.
THE GOSPEL IN A NUTSHELL
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
ALL WILL NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
JOHN 3: THE GOSPEL IN A NUTSHELL
THE PHARISEES DID NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
THE ABSOLUTE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH TAUGHT BY CHRIST
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
CHRIST WAS THE DIVINE TEACHER OF ISRAEL AND THE WORLD
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in Heaven.
THE GOSPEL IN A NUTSHELL
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
ALL WILL NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
-
1
- Show all
Why isnt that Church doctrine? NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH will be for all of God's people, not just the jews.... We are Abraham's seed, inherting the promise THROUGH FAITH as your favorite, PAUL says in Galatians 3!
If you can prove to me from the Bible where it says only Pauline epistles are to the Church, im coming a card carrying member of your crew. But I just havent seen a verse. Or if you can show a verse where 1 John isnt for the Church somehow. I mean, if we take the approach of: This is written to a Jew somewhere, so its not to us, to gentile church. Then NO BOOK of the Bible is written to me, not even Paul's epistles. Because im not a corinthian, nor a galatian. so NONE of it applies.
If you can prove to me from the Bible where it says only Pauline epistles are to the Church, im coming a card carrying member of your crew. But I just havent seen a verse. Or if you can show a verse where 1 John isnt for the Church somehow. I mean, if we take the approach of: This is written to a Jew somewhere, so its not to us, to gentile church. Then NO BOOK of the Bible is written to me, not even Paul's epistles. Because im not a corinthian, nor a galatian. so NONE of it applies.
-
1
- Show all