Is baptism Essential for salvation?

[homwardbound]

well i asked about water baptism because its nearly time for my baptism! loll i am stoked.
but i was told that we are not saved by water, we are saved by our faith in Jesus Propitiation which appeased Gods wrath and reconciled us to God where he is not angry with us any longer and adopted us and we will have eternal life.
but my teacher said we take hold of that work with the promise by faith and our faith is an active obdedent faith.

this is easy for me to understand because if my boss said come to the office for a bonus and a company jacket, i couldnt hardly get those if i didn't believe he had them, and went to get accept them. is this supposed to be works or somehting that we dont do?

i'm stoked to be baptized soon. i think in the Virgin or the White or maybe just a lake because there might not be enough flow. i read your article and checked it the best i could.

By all means my Brother go ahead and be water Babtized it is a good conscious between God and you, it is you wanting to know all truth from God. Now if you do not do this part as in a good conscious and you do it to be accepted by others and become a member then you missed the purpose that is to be between God and you, God who knows all Motives, the truth of anyones purpose will be awarded accordingly
Matthew 6:1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 6:2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

And best of all be of a willing heart for God between God and you, not man and you for when you do this you will recive pats on the back from others and the enemies purpose for this is get you to be proud and boastful in and of yourself over doing this
And is why Paul said
Romans 3:27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Just do as you are led by God and you will be set free completely
Congradulations on going through with this being between God and you

[h=3]Matthew 13:1-58[/h]King James Version (KJV)

13 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[SUP]28 [/SUP]He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
[SUP]38 [/SUP]The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
[SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[SUP]42 [/SUP]And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
[SUP]50 [/SUP]And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
[SUP]52 [/SUP]Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
[SUP]55 [/SUP]Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
[SUP]56 [/SUP]And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
[SUP]57 [/SUP]And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

 

[silverdollar]

Where we today by belief in the finished work of God at the cross are restored back to the life that Adam and Eve had prior to the eating of that tree by the resurrection niot the death even though thedxeath was needed before new life could ever be restored as a righteous one from God
Hope I did not lose you? any doubt that the enemy can keep in your new self from God as in God has saved you by God then one gets de-ralied as adam and eve had gotten de-railed and died that day to the Spirit of God and were made alive to sinful flesh.

no, i dont believe we are like Adam was before he fell.
but one day we will be.

and no, no one can derail me from believing in God.
i dont want anyone else but Him.
everything else is after him and thats onyl to do the things he said to do on this earth.

 

[homwardbound]

well all that means as far as i can see is that Jesus set us free from the power of sin to control us.
that only counts for people who belong to Christ.
sin doesn't lead me around like it used to. i can think now before i couldn't think about it as sin i didnt even care or know.
i dont know what youre talking about.

are you saying you never sins? walking after the flesh as it says in romans there is something unbelievers do (like i used to be)

No my brother just confirming waht is already in you and you already know and ahve not gotten caught up in the works program, that is all.
all in God's Love to you

 

[silverdollar]

usually when people say "you're in the flesh" they are saying you are not conforming to the will of GOD, you're just going on your own will -- satisfying yourself.
OR they are saying this because they are arrogant and want to insult you to say your "sinning"....(some people do act like this. we have some here in CC)

If we let our sinful nature get the best of us, we are responsible. that means we get down on our knees and pray to GOD for forgiveness. we don't rely on a prayer said so many years ago to cover it all today.

And this is the part where I really disagree with OSAS (once saved always saved).....
when I cause offence to someone -- I say I'm sorry after the offence. I regret my offence, and try my best not to do it again, and with GOD's help I won't.
I don't say "YO! so and so..... I'm gonna tell ya sorry now for all the bad things I'm going to do to ya in the future, ok, we cool with that ?"
That person is going to look at me funny and probably not be my friend any more.

Same with GOD.

you reap what ya sow. we will have these bodied until we die or until GOD takes us home, whichever comes first. We better learn how to deal with sin in our lives, learn to let GOD first wash us from our sinful past, then with HIS SPIRIT we can overcome temptation to sin again. BUT if we do sin we have an advocate, which is Christ JESUS.

This is what I believe.
others believe i'm wrong.
that's ok.

this sounds right to me, from what i read of the bible. which isnt very much yet but i read some every day.

 

[silverdollar]

that is what he is saying alright. he is what we call a "christian mystic" and he believes he never sins. EVER.

he is sinning by just saying such things cause no one is perfect but GOD.

never sins?
okay. lol

sounds like that other guy that was threatening people saying God said it.
oh man. i didnt sign up for this. its simple for me. i love Jesus and he loves me. i know it because he died for me and then he came to me.

 

[silverdollar]

No my brother just confirming waht is already in you and you already know and ahve not gotten caught up in the works program, that is all.
all in God's Love to you

whats the works program

 

[silverdollar]

Maybe this might help as Isee you are growing in him
Acts 17:28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

Galatians 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1 Corinthians 2:2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

All the power resides in the cross and one sees this once God shows them their resurrection by the resurrection at the cross of Christ

so you got saved before you believed? or did you believe and then get saved. i heard a talk between someone who said there was a cavlinist controversy. that you get saved before you believe.
that might be true. i dont know.
like i said a million times someone preached Jesus for a long time and i didnt beleive and then i did believe and when believed i saw how much i needed Jesus and loved him.
so dont know what comes first.
maybe i dont even want to lol

 

[homwardbound]

no it is not.Example,the thief on the cross was not baptized,but ended up in paradise with Jesus.Amen. I could share many examples GBU 2

Thanks they have all been shared and whether one gets Babtized in water or not by beleif God knowing not us whether they do actually beleive or not has then Babtized them in the Spirit of Christ through the resurrection of Christ back at the cross of as John said straight out that he only babtizes with Water but Christ does with the Holy Ghost and this took place this type of Babtism after the resurrection 50 days after Christ's resurrection on that salvation day of Pentecost and they recieved the Holy Ghost were saved by God something man couls never do in and of himsel ever before the cross and or after
By Faith inb the fiunished work one is saved and it is not bad for one to get water Babtized unless thier motive behind this is not pure between God that person, for God before any water Babtism or not knows whose are his and those that know they belong to God by God are safe and secure in God praising and worshipping so much so occupied with this not noticing others being too busy in thankfullness all sin then has been cur out. Sin is only born by one thinking about long enlough for it totkae a grasp and then be born whether one wants it or not
Been there worked hard at it like Paul who after seeing the born again life counted all his self righteousness as dung, no good for nothing, so that he might win Christ and this is waht I speak of as well to this very day
Thanks for anyone else that has been there or are there and needed to hear this to be set free from the grasp of the ennemy that keeps one in sin, when God ahscaled us out of that behavior by the resurrected Christ

 

[homwardbound]

no, i dont believe we are like Adam was before he fell.
but one day we will be.

and no, no one can derail me from believing in God.
i dont want anyone else but Him.
everything else is after him and thats onyl to do the things he said to do on this earth.

Thanmk you for then now and forever God is your sifter to all that you hear and say for God is the one that gives the increase to wahtever anyone else says or does. I am elkated that you are in Christ and God the Father has got the reins through the Holy Ghost that he planted in you
[h=3]Ephesians 1:7-13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[jinx]

whats the works program

some people believe that by obeying GOd when HE said in acts 2:38 Act 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

they believe that by doing this in order to "receive the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT" that it is called the "works salvation". doing something for GOD to obtain salvation, when really it is only obedience.

 

[homwardbound]

whats the works program

Trying to please God and others by what you are doing having the wrong motive thinking we will get rewards from God like a vending machine, put in quater and get waht is there available
We are the creation and God is the creator right?
If God responds to man wuld that not make Man God of God?
Adam and Eve became creators did they not? by the fall, did they not have to learn by toil hard work and much stress?

So what is truth us the creation to respond to God and waht God has done for us by the cross of christ?
Or to just go on creating and expecting God to respond to us by our good works.
Again God is the creator we are the creation, so how are we to be Dependant on God as christ showed all of us 100% all the time? or dependant on others and self?

 

[silverdollar]

some people believe that by obeying GOd when HE said in acts 2:38 Act 2:38
they believe that by doing this in order to "receive the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT" that it is called the "works salvation". doing something for GOD to obtain salvation, when really it is only obedience.

ok.
(is that a joke?) the works program is believing Jesus and getting baptized?
do they say thats from satan. lol

 

[silverdollar]

Trying to please God and others by what you are doing having the wrong motive thinking we will get rewards from God like a vending machine, put in quater and get waht is there available
We are the creation and God is the creator right?
If God responds to man wuld that not make Man God of God?
Adam and Eve became creators did they not? by the fall, did they not have to learn by toil hard work and much stress?

So what is truth us the creation to respond to God and waht God has done for us by the cross of christ?
Or to just go on creating and expecting God to respond to us by our good works.
Again God is the creator we are the creation, so how are we to be Dependant on God as christ showed all of us 100% all the time? or dependant on others and self?

what? i dont know what youre saying. i dont think God is like a vending machine. i cant wait to be baptized. the holy spirit wants me to.
i'm going to. im looking forward to it. and jesus said to do it so i know he will be there with me

if you think thats a bad thing what ever.

 

[jinx]

ok.
(is that a joke?) the works program is believing Jesus and getting baptized?
do they say thats from satan. lol

more or less. some people believe all you have to do is believe to be saved. belief is the starting point, but GOD requires stuff from us, repentance, baptism, living a holy lifestyle.

 

[silverdollar]

more or less. some people believe all you have to do is believe to be saved. belief is the starting point, but GOD requires stuff from us, repentance, baptism, living a holy lifestyle.

well, i do know that faith is what saves. Gods grace saves us through faith in his message. like abraham. if we believe his message we will do what he said. getting baptized isnt hard. i cant wait. im excited for it.

all you have to do is believe. its true.
Jesus said things that are to be believed.
if he said go and do then i'm going to try hard to go and do.

is that the works program? lol

 

[jinx]

yup. that is what they consider works program. obedience is work...LOL

without obedience we sin, if we live in sin by not obeying then we lose out with GOD.

 

[homwardbound]

so you got saved before you believed? or did you believe and then get saved. i heard a talk between someone who said there was a cavlinist controversy. that you get saved before you believe.
that might be true. i dont know.
like i said a million times someone preached Jesus for a long time and i didnt beleive and then i did believe and when believed i saw how much i needed Jesus and loved him.
so dont know what comes first.
maybe i dont even want to lol

The only thng Christ left here for mankind after the death, burial and resurrection was for us to either believe him or not
[h=3]John 16:5-11[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The Work of the Holy Spirit[/h][SUP]5 [/SUP]“But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ [SUP]6 [/SUP]But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [SUP]9 [/SUP]of sin, because they do not believe in Me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; [SUP]11 [/SUP]of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Now please understand this at the cross Christ took away the sin of the whole world before his Father who can know no sin ans can't even fathom it. This was so Christ can present us before Father as blameless and we therefore can recieve new life in Father through the resurrected Christ where all the power is at in Christ, not in us. God the Father giving us this free gift of Salvation, so we can appreciate it overwhelmingly so that we do not have time to waste any bad enregy on anger, malice, upsetness over things going wrong because we know all things bad or good no matter how they appear are working somehow towards the good of God and since tihs true we can thus reloice in our afflictions even if bad, For we can learn much. I got saved when I was twelve and have been being matured over all the years by God, not that I am matured yet, or completed yet, only God knoweth and I do not want to know, to stay away from ever thinking I am somebody. I now waht Paul meant in 2 cor. 12:7 onward about a messenger of Satan that came along to buffet him, to keep him humble and not proud
Thererfore is I am thing at all it be the power found in the cross of christ the resurrection that is waht I am boasting about new life, yet as Palu said in the death where all sins have been dealt with and until one sees andfinalizes the cross that from God all sins are taken away by Christ that there is no more forgiveness to be executed from God to you, me or anyone else after they knkiow from God by Christ they are forgiven
Now this does not mean that we do not need forgiveness from one another if we harm or hurt another, We do it is the only right response to God to go to our brothers ans sisters and ask for this since we are past tense already past tense forgiven by God the Father through The final sacrifice of Christ
See before the cross we had to forgive or we would not be forgiven
And we had to love or we could not be loved.
So therefore today after the cross we forgive without even thinking about it why? Because we are forgiven
After the cross we love because why? we are loved God loved us first which is waht you are in reception of as I ahve heard your posts state
1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.
This you have recieved, so how does it not make since to not love all no matter what
For if we only love those that love us and have to love in order to be loved or forgive in order to be forgiven, how can or has anyone else ever been able to do this except Christ?
This is why we are to put our trust in God and no flesh at all ever as Paul said many times you will see as you continue toread truth from God. You see Brother tha Bible does not set anyone free, nope only the truth of the word of the Bible does this and this is discerned between God and you and you sahll know the truth and the truth will set you free
John 8:32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[silverdollar]

yup. that is what they consider works program. obedience is work...LOL
.

oh i think i get it.
so thats where all the talk about flesh and spirit and stuff fixes that problem.
if youre all spirit, your flesh is a goner anyways so you never sin.
lke that?

 

[silverdollar]

The only thng Christ left here for mankind after the death, burial and resurrection was for us to either believe him or not

he told us to go and make disciples and baptize them and teach them everything he spoke of.
how can people believe unless someone tells them
and how can someone tell them unless they are learned and how can they be learned unless someone keeps his commandments and knows what he said.

 

[jinx]

yeah they believe that once they are saved they have no sin, do no sin...(we aint truly saved until we have endured till the end, right now we are only born again in Christ)

i have yet to hear one mystic answer me this one question....... if you offend GOD or someone else do you repent for it?

normally i get the answer that they don't sin because they have GOD in them, but they forget they still have this earthly body attached to them and they aint living in no glorified body yet. That human nature to sin is still a very big part of their lives. BUT with GOD's SPIRIT in them they can overcome sin's temptations and if they don't they do have an advocate.