Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

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Mar 4, 2020
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For me to answer the original question, I would have to explain my perspective of Baptism supported with Scripture.

Matt 28: 19 Go ye, therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,


"In the name of" means by the authority of. By the authority of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit they are to teach all nations and water baptize them. Humans can't perform Holy Spirit baptisms.


Acts 8: 12
But WHEN they believed Phillip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.


Agreed. Water baptism comes after believing. There are many verses to support this, but the verse you quoted above will suffice. We know this is water baptism since in Acts 19 the believers did not have the Holy Spirit once they believed, but rather received the Holy Spirit after their water baptism.

Acts 9: 17-18
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even ( that is) Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.. And IMMEDIATELY there fell from his eyes as it had been scales; and he received sight, and arose, and was baptized.


I'm not sure what your point is here. Miracles can happen to people without that person already having the Holy Spirit as documented by the gospels.

Matt 20: 18-19
Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify Him. And the third day He shall rise again.
Matt 20: 22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto Him, we are able.



Jesus also called the experience He was going to have a cup. It wasn't literally a cup or a water baptism in this specific case. Jesus was using figurative language here.

Know ye not that, as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?


This requires more context to understand correctly.

Romans 6:3-5
3Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

This passage says that Jesus was raised from the dead. This is comparing something we do to something Christ did. Water baptism is like being buried because we go down into the water and like being resurrected because we rise up out of the water. Notice the word "like" in the above passage. If we identify with the death of Christ through water baptism we will also be resurrected. Again, Christ literally died and resurrected. We will literally die and be resurrected because of water baptism.


1 Cor 12: 13
For by one Spirit were we baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Greeks, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



The context of the passage is about the body of Christ in the sense that the church is Christ's body. This is talking about flesh and blood people with gifts of the Holy Spirit in the church and they were water baptized. Also note Acts 2:38.

1 Cor. 12:27-30
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Acts 2:38
38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


1 Cor 12: 3
Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.


Convicts us into believing and trust that Jesus is Lord and Savior? That verse doesn't say that.

Eph 3: 14-15
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, ...



They've been baptized by the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Acts 1: 5
For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.


A cursory glance through Acts and the rest of the New Testament proves water baptism never ceased nor was commanded to cease.

Acts 8: 12
But when they believed Phillip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women


That's water baptism again. People are always water baptized after believing.

Acts 8:36
36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?”

Acts 11: 18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Where do you see that anyone was baptized in the name of only the Father?

Ezek 36: 25-27
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.
This refers back to being born of water and Spirit. Water is water baptism and Spirit is spiritual rebirth.

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

After the discourse in John 3, Jesus went into the countryside with His disciples and performed water baptisms.

John 3:22
22After this, Jesus and His disciples went into the Judean countryside, where He spent some time with them and baptized.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I don't think these people realize the gravity of the consequences involved when they frivolously deny scripture because they do not take the time to reflect on what other people post because they are too busy trying to argue. I've asked them to read and reflect on posts #454 and 455 which pretty much answers a lot of the questions involved. They say that they have but there is no evidence that anything has sunk in. With people like that, all that we can do as Christians is pray to God that the Holy Spirit will open their eyes and understanding. The simple question is why did all the Jews around the Jordan all come to get baptized by water by John? They never heard of salvation through Jesus Christ, being born again, being filled with the Holy Spirit, etc.
None of them were Christians. John himself stated that
he was told by God to baptize with water because the identity of the One who was going to baptize with the Holy Spirit was going to be revealed during his baptizing with water when the Holy Spirit comes down from heaven and hovers over Him. All this is explained in post # 454 and 455. That is why Jesus got baptized with water. He didn't have any sins to repent for but had to be identified by John. THe custom of baptizing with water and repenting was a Jewish thing and that is why Jews , even Christian Jews kept baptizing with water to show their repentance.
I responded to one of your posts as I said I would. I didn't forget, but it's time consuming because there's so much to respond to. Maybe I'll reply to your second post later if I feel like it.

My honest advice for you, if you will accept it, is that your foundation of Biblical knowledge is mostly inaccurate. I understand your line of thinking, I think, but you make a lot of unwarranted assumptions and disregard a lot of context to reach conclusions. Please accept that constructively.

To offer you a solution, I think you should learn the importance of water baptism. It was very important to the early church so there's our biggest clue it should be important to us, too. Also, I think we need to stay grounded. Come back down to Earth. You're a flesh and blood human who needs to serve Christ's church using your body to exercise any gifts of the Holy Spirit you may have.
 

TMS

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Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

To be saved you must be born again.

Baptism is the outward proclamation that you have been born again.

Jesus will judge the heart, and knows the circumstances.
 
Dec 30, 2020
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Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

To be saved you must be born again.

Baptism is the outward proclamation that you have been born again.

Jesus will judge the heart, and knows the circumstances.
In verse 5 "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit", born of water is explained in verse 6 as born of flesh as opposed to born of the Spirit. That means natural birth , not water baptism. In other words a person has to be born twice. One naturally and the other spiritually.
 
Dec 30, 2020
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"In the name of" means by the authority of. By the authority of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit they are to teach all nations and water baptize them. Humans can't perform Holy Spirit baptisms.




Agreed. Water baptism comes after believing. There are many verses to support this, but the verse you quoted above will suffice. We know this is water baptism since in Acts 19 the believers did not have the Holy Spirit once they believed, but rather received the Holy Spirit after their water baptism.



I'm not sure what your point is here. Miracles can happen to people without that person already having the Holy Spirit as documented by the gospels.



Jesus also called the experience He was going to have a cup. It wasn't literally a cup or a water baptism in this specific case. Jesus was using figurative language here.



This requires more context to understand correctly.

Romans 6:3-5
3Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

This passage says that Jesus was raised from the dead. This is comparing something we do to something Christ did. Water baptism is like being buried because we go down into the water and like being resurrected because we rise up out of the water. Notice the word "like" in the above passage. If we identify with the death of Christ through water baptism we will also be resurrected. Again, Christ literally died and resurrected. We will literally die and be resurrected because of water baptism.




The context of the passage is about the body of Christ in the sense that the church is Christ's body. This is talking about flesh and blood people with gifts of the Holy Spirit in the church and they were water baptized. Also note Acts 2:38.

1 Cor. 12:27-30
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Acts 2:38
38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.




Convicts us into believing and trust that Jesus is Lord and Savior? That verse doesn't say that.



They've been baptized by the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.



A cursory glance through Acts and the rest of the New Testament proves water baptism never ceased nor was commanded to cease.



That's water baptism again. People are always water baptized after believing.

Acts 8:36
36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?”



Where do you see that anyone was baptized in the name of only the Father?



This refers back to being born of water and Spirit. Water is water baptism and Spirit is spiritual rebirth.

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

After the discourse in John 3, Jesus went into the countryside with His disciples and performed water baptisms.

John 3:22
22After this, Jesus and His disciples went into the Judean countryside, where He spent some time with them and baptized.
I believe that what we disagree on is that you believe that any time you see the word baptism, you think of water baptism. That is why when you commented of Matt 28: 19 you stuck in water baptism. You did that with almost every verse that mentions Baptism. That is why I started my posts showing that when Jesus used the word Baptism, He did not mean water baptism.
 

TMS

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In verse 5 "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit", born of water is explained in verse 6 as born of flesh as opposed to born of the Spirit. That means natural birth , not water baptism. In other words a person has to be born twice. One naturally and the other spiritually.
My point is that it is about the heart. It is easy to be baptised in a river or pool, but the real issue is are you born again spiritually. I find reason in the Bible to be baptised when you have chosen to follow Jesus.

Mat 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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In verse 5 "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit", born of water is explained in verse 6 as born of flesh as opposed to born of the Spirit. That means natural birth , not water baptism. In other words a person has to be born twice. One naturally and the other spiritually.
Water is not natural birth. To be born again of water you’d have to die then be reincarnated and birthed a second time by a woman. Doesn’t make sense. Jesus said be born again as in a second time of water and Spirit. The natural birth from a woman is the first birth and it’s impossible to have a natural birth again so the water is certainly water baptism.

Water is certainly water baptism here.

I think I see where your misunderstanding is though. You think water birth and Spirit birth are two separate births, but they are occur together.

Do all of the references about being water baptized and then receiving the Holy Spirit make more sense now?

More proof that water and Spirit go together:

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.27And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.

Another clue water isn’t live birth:

John 1:12,13
12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I believe that what we disagree on is that you believe that any time you see the word baptism, you think of water baptism. That is why when you commented of Matt 28: 19 you stuck in water baptism. You did that with almost every verse that mentions Baptism. That is why I started my posts showing that when Jesus used the word Baptism, He did not mean water baptism.
No I don’t think every time the word baptism is mentioned that it means water.
 

Wansvic

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Jesus has already provided complete salvation to all who call on His name. You are simply wet.
Calling upon the name of the Lord occurs in water baptism. (Acts 22:16...)
 

Wansvic

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Matthew 26:28 tells us, “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

Not water. Water does not remove sin.
Again, as I have stated numerous times, obedience to the God-given command to be water baptized would be pointless if not for the shed blood of Jesus.
 

Wansvic

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We have same directive in Acts.

In Acts 2:38, we see, “Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Repentance came first and then the baptisim. Nowhere is it indicated that water removes sin. That is an erroneous interpretation.
The directive in Acts is to believe and respond to the entire message that includes the requirement to both repent, AND submit to baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in order for one's sins to be washed away. (Acts 2:37-38, 22:16)

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:37-42
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine
 

Wansvic

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We have same directive in Acts.

In Acts 2:38, we see, “Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Repentance came first and then the baptisim. Nowhere is it indicated that water removes sin. That is an erroneous interpretation.
As Ananias told Paul, be baptized in order that YOUR sins are washed away. (Acts 22:16) Jesus' sacrifice provided for everyone's sins to be dwelt with. However, individual's are required to obey God's command in order to partake of that reality.

Notice the following scripture makes the point that in believing in Jesus you MIGHT have life through His name. Life only becomes a reality when a fallen man's sins are washed away. And according to the word this occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 

Amanuensis

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Gentiles do not have to adhere to Jewish customs such as circumcision of the penis, Jewish holidays, animal sacrifices, water baptism, etc. Jesus came to save the Jews, but when they rejected Him, the door was opened for Gentiles.
I think you are going in the wrong direction. We should be restoring the practice of baptizing people in water the same day they repent and confess faith in Christ instead of putting it off for a future date. The New Testament knows nothing about a concept of not baptizing new converts until Jesus comes again.
 

Wansvic

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In Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist mentions the purpose of his baptisms: “I baptize you with water for repentance.”

Paul affirms this in Acts 19:4: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” John’s baptism had to do with repentance—it was a symbolic representation of changing one’s mind and going a new direction. “Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River” (Matthew 3:6). Being baptized by John demonstrated a recognition of one’s sin, a desire for spiritual cleansing, and a commitment to follow God’s law in anticipation of the Messiah’s arrival. source

*Awaits X from Peldom :giggle:
After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection water baptism was modified to include the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of one's sin. (Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38, 10:43-47) Paul said, Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Romans 6:3) As such, not before, but after a person is obedient to the NT command they are considered buried with Jesus into His death. "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (6:4)

Notice what verse 5 promises IF a person is obedient to the command: "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

It is during baptism that the body of sin is destroyed as confirmed in verse 6: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
 

Magenta

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After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection water baptism was modified to include the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of one's sin. (Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38, 10:43-47) Paul said, Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Romans 6:3) As such, not before, but after a person is obedient to the NT command they are considered buried with Jesus into His death. "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (6:4)

Notice what verse 5 promises IF a person is obedient to the command: "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

It is during baptism that the body of sin is destroyed as confirmed in verse 6: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And? Do you still maintain that John's baptism was for the remission of sin when Scripture says otherwise?
 

mailmandan

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Calling upon the name of the Lord occurs in water baptism. (Acts 22:16...)
Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160].

Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

For further study on Acts 22:16 see - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html
 

Wansvic

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I don't think these people realize the gravity of the consequences involved when they frivolously deny scripture because they do not take the time to reflect on what other people post because they are too busy trying to argue. I've asked them to read and reflect on posts #454 and 455 which pretty much answers a lot of the questions involved. They say that they have but there is no evidence that anything has sunk in. With people like that, all that we can do as Christians is pray to God that the Holy Spirit will open their eyes and understanding. The simple question is why did all the Jews around the Jordan all come to get baptized by water by John? They never heard of salvation through Jesus Christ, being born again, being filled with the Holy Spirit, etc.
None of them were Christians. John himself stated that
he was told by God to baptize with water because the identity of the One who was going to baptize with the Holy Spirit was going to be revealed during his baptizing with water when the Holy Spirit comes down from heaven and hovers over Him. All this is explained in post # 454 and 455. That is why Jesus got baptized with water. He didn't have any sins to repent for but had to be identified by John. THe custom of baptizing with water and repenting was a Jewish thing and that is why Jews , even Christian Jews kept baptizing with water to show their repentance.
Actually many accept what "religious" people say about water baptism rather than believe and obey what scripture reveals about it. And sadly, even those who accept the command should be obeyed, follow a tradition of men being baptized using the phrase in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Rather than accepting what Jesus revealed by His own words, Baptize people in the NAME of ... What is the Name? Scripture reveals that too.

1. Many don't believe it remits sin even though that is what is stated in the word of God. (Acts 22:16, 2:38)
2. And many refuse to accept that baptism is to be administered in the name of the Lord Jesus even though it is confirmed by the apostles actions. And witnessed by their words:

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:47-28


"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." 1 Cor 1:13-15