Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,734
1,035
113
Nor did I say you did.


I wonder how many times it needs to be said that one example was not true for
all cases, since the Holy Spirit was given to some before they were water baptized.


You want a cookie-cutter Jesus.
What many are failing to realize is that everyone is required to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus as instructed by Peter. It does not matter whether they do it before or after they receive the Holy Ghost. Every detailed conversion account clarifies this point.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,639
1,392
113
well I can..:)

but I am wondering what you think of someone saying you are not saved if you have not been water baptized

I don't want or need to get 'into it' with someone else...no offense
Ok.. no problem. If you don't want to explain, I understand.
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
992
175
43
You cannot prove that, so it is, in fact, just your opinion.
The scriptures prove it. Start with Luke 3:16 and Luke 24:47-49 both restated in Acts 1:4-5. What's it say? One will come that will baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire, in Luke 3:16, and in Luke 24:47-49, it says repentance and remission of sins should be preached starting at Jerusalem and to tarry there until they received power ftom on high. And what's Acts 1:4-5,say? It restates both of these.

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

And in Luke 24:47-49, who was this addressed to? Starting in verse 36 of Luke 24, Jesus appears to the apostles and verses 47-49 is his instructions to them, the apostles.

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Then Acts 1:8 says the following

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

It's clear that the falling of the Holy Ghost with fire was meant fir the apostles asxwell as the power from on high and that this occurred as recorded in Acts 2; read it all carefully.

Futher, Acts 10 was also a unique demonstration of the Holy Ghost and unilaterally by the Holy Ghost falling on the Gentiles first and unlike Acts 2 where it fell on the apostles, but also as a sign and validation from on high which there validated it was God's plan to bring the Gentiles into the body of Christ. In thst case, it was validation to Peter and company. It fell on the Gentiles prior to baptism but the were then immediately baptized. Why? Because that's how you become part of the Lord's body; you're baptized into Christ as noted in scripture such as Acts 2:38-47 and elsewhere.

The power from on high and the miraculous manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit, not the Spirit itself, but it's gifts as noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10, are manifested by the laying on ofvthe APOSTLE'S hands as noted in Acts 6:6, Acts 8:18 and Acts 19:6, and it was the apostles who performed the miraculous gifts of the Spirit as noted in Acts 5:12 and those that thry laid theirvhands on duch as Stephen as noted previously.

The scriptures prove themselves; I don't have to prove anything and only point in the right direction as well as clarify and explain so it's easier to follow the scripture trail.
 

JBTN

Active member
Feb 11, 2020
211
74
28
The scriptures prove it. Start with Luke 3:16 and Luke 24:47-49 both restated in Acts 1:4-5. What's it say? One will come that will baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire, in Luke 3:16, and in Luke 24:47-49, it says repentance and remission of sins should be preached starting at Jerusalem and to tarry there until they received power ftom on high. And what's Acts 1:4-5,say? It restates both of these.

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

And in Luke 24:47-49, who was this addressed to? Starting in verse 36 of Luke 24, Jesus appears to the apostles and verses 47-49 is his instructions to them, the apostles.

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Then Acts 1:8 says the following

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

It's clear that the falling of the Holy Ghost with fire was meant fir the apostles asxwell as the power from on high and that this occurred as recorded in Acts 2; read it all carefully.

Futher, Acts 10 was also a unique demonstration of the Holy Ghost and unilaterally by the Holy Ghost falling on the Gentiles first and unlike Acts 2 where it fell on the apostles, but also as a sign and validation from on high which there validated it was God's plan to bring the Gentiles into the body of Christ. In thst case, it was validation to Peter and company. It fell on the Gentiles prior to baptism but the were then immediately baptized. Why? Because that's how you become part of the Lord's body; you're baptized into Christ as noted in scripture such as Acts 2:38-47 and elsewhere.

The power from on high and the miraculous manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit, not the Spirit itself, but it's gifts as noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10, are manifested by the laying on ofvthe APOSTLE'S hands as noted in Acts 6:6, Acts 8:18 and Acts 19:6, and it was the apostles who performed the miraculous gifts of the Spirit as noted in Acts 5:12 and those that thry laid theirvhands on duch as Stephen as noted previously.

The scriptures prove themselves; I don't have to prove anything and only point in the right direction as well as clarify and explain so it's easier to follow the scripture trail.

Just wondering if you have ever noticed this:


“The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:6-9‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/59/act.15.6-9.esv

Doesn’t this passage show that the elders present received the Holy Spirit in the same manner as the Apostles and the house of Cornelius? It says no distinction was made between any of them.

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭11:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/59/act.11.15-17.esv

In this passage “us” and “we” refer back to the circumcision party. Also, here we see that the Holy Spirit was received upon belief by the circumcision party and the house of Cornelius.

Is there any other way to see this?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,819
25,996
113
The scriptures prove it. Start with Luke 3:16 and Luke 24:47-49 both restated in Acts 1:4-5. What's it say? One will come that will baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire, in Luke 3:16, and in Luke 24:47-49, it says repentance and remission of sins should be preached starting at Jerusalem and to tarry there until they received power ftom on high. And what's Acts 1:4-5,say? It restates both of these.

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

And in Luke 24:47-49, who was this addressed to? Starting in verse 36 of Luke 24, Jesus appears to the apostles and verses 47-49 is his instructions to them, the apostles.

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Then Acts 1:8 says the following

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

It's clear that the falling of the Holy Ghost with fire was meant fir the apostles asxwell as the power from on high and that this occurred as recorded in Acts 2; read it all carefully.

Futher, Acts 10 was also a unique demonstration of the Holy Ghost and unilaterally by the Holy Ghost falling on the Gentiles first and unlike Acts 2 where it fell on the apostles, but also as a sign and validation from on high which there validated it was God's plan to bring the Gentiles into the body of Christ. In thst case, it was validation to Peter and company. It fell on the Gentiles prior to baptism but the were then immediately baptized. Why? Because that's how you become part of the Lord's body; you're baptized into Christ as noted in scripture such as Acts 2:38-47 and elsewhere.

The power from on high and the miraculous manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit, not the Spirit itself, but it's gifts as noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10, are manifested by the laying on ofvthe APOSTLE'S hands as noted in Acts 6:6, Acts 8:18 and Acts 19:6, and it was the apostles who performed the miraculous gifts of the Spirit as noted in Acts 5:12 and those that thry laid theirvhands on duch as Stephen as noted previously.

The scriptures prove themselves; I don't have to prove anything and only point in the right direction as well as clarify and explain so it's easier to follow the scripture trail.
None of that proves that nobody ever receives the Holy Spirit before water baptism.
 
P

Polar

Guest
Ok.. no problem. If you don't want to explain, I understand.
great

but you didn't answer me either so I guess we'll just pass as you say

I said I could explain...I did not say I don't want to

Polar said:
well I can..:)

but I am wondering what you think of someone saying you are not saved if you have not been water baptized

I don't want or need to get 'into it' with someone else...no offense
I haven't followed your posts so I don't know
 
P

Polar

Guest
the interesting thing here, is that it seems most or even all agree that water baptism should be followed

so, seeing that is so, the conclusion is that a couple of people here insist we do that according to their interpretation

verses are twisted, answers are flipped...whatever...but their way is THE way.....NONSENSE! since scripture indicates salvation is by faith in Christ ONLY

do we play a part in our salvation? NO WE DO NOT

we are baptized to identify with Christ and nothing else. adding to salvation is an insult to God
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,639
1,392
113
I haven't followed your posts so I don't know
You could go back a couple of pages to post 1253 if you truly want to know.

but you didn't answer me either
Usually when someone answers a direct question with another question, it indicates an un-willingness to be specific.
I inferred from your post that you think that baptism is somehow a "work"..... instead of being simply obedience to a direct command.
"Doing" something in order to EARN salvation would be what I would call a "work", and we cannot earn salvation.
Doing something in response to a command is not a "work", it is obedience.
Jesus told us to feed the hungry and clothe the naked..... if we do those things, do you consider them to be "works" ? Odd that scripture tells us that faith without works is dead...

When Peter said to repent and be baptized... how is repentance not a work, but baptism is?

It is shown to us many, many times in scripture that baptism is an essential part of joining the body of Christ. You can pick individual scriptures all you want that don't mention baptism, but if you rightly divide the word of God, and take everything that is said about salvation, you cannot help but see that baptism is essential. IF you are honest...
 

JBTN

Active member
Feb 11, 2020
211
74
28
Futher, Acts 10 was also a unique demonstration of the Holy Ghost and unilaterally by the Holy Ghost falling on the Gentiles first and unlike Acts 2 where it fell on the apostles, but also as a sign and validation from on high which there validated it was God's plan to bring the Gentiles into the body of Christ. In thst case, it was validation to Peter and company.
How can this be true when Peter said there was no distinction between us and them. Remember that “us“ included the elders who were present in Acts 15. Also, the ”no” in ”no distinction” is not just a simple no. It is a different word that means not even one. So Peter said in Acts 15 that not even one distinction existed.
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
992
175
43
Just wondering if you have ever noticed this:


“The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:6-9‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/59/act.15.6-9.esv

Doesn’t this passage show that the elders present received the Holy Spirit in the same manner as the Apostles and the house of Cornelius? It says no distinction was made between any of them.

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭11:15-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/59/act.11.15-17.esv

In this passage “us” and “we” refer back to the circumcision party. Also, here we see that the Holy Spirit was received upon belief by the circumcision party and the house of Cornelius.

Is there any other way to see this?
We all receive thd gift of the Holy Ghost or Spirit according to Acts 2:38. Receiving the Holy Ghost itself is not the same as the gifts manifested by or through it, namely, those of a miraculous nature listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. The gift of the spirit and the gifts produced by the Spirit are two different things. Read Acts 2:38. And then read about the gifts received by or through the Spirit. These were temporal and served a specific need in the early church, to grow and edify it, and were the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands.
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
992
175
43
As I posted, we have a clear command from the Lord. You claim to stand on scripture and only scripture but you don't. You stand on scripture when it suits your purpose.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Those are your words. Be specific.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,554
3,154
113
I have no idea what you're talking about. Those are your words. Be specific.
Just ignore it then. It wouldn't matter what I said anyway you'd find a reason to shoot it down.
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
992
175
43
the 'actual' Holy Ghost'?

is there a doppelganger? maybe an understudy?

what is it you believe exactly?
You receive the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:38. It doesn't say you receive gifts (plural) it says you receive THE gift of the Holy Ghost, not gifts of or from the Holy Ghost. It's the spirit itself that we all receive by promise. You can see by reading the scriptures some of which I posted, how people received the gifts, like prophesy, or tongues, etc., which happened as the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands.
 
P

Polar

Guest
You could go back a couple of pages to post 1253 if you truly want to know.


Usually when someone answers a direct question with another question, it indicates an un-willingness to be specific.
I inferred from your post that you think that baptism is somehow a "work"..... instead of being simply obedience to a direct command.
"Doing" something in order to EARN salvation would be what I would call a "work", and we cannot earn salvation.
Doing something in response to a command is not a "work", it is obedience.
Jesus told us to feed the hungry and clothe the naked..... if we do those things, do you consider them to be "works" ? Odd that scripture tells us that faith without works is dead...

When Peter said to repent and be baptized... how is repentance not a work, but baptism is?

It is shown to us many, many times in scripture that baptism is an essential part of joining the body of Christ. You can pick individual scriptures all you want that don't mention baptism, but if you rightly divide the word of God, and take everything that is said about salvation, you cannot help but see that baptism is essential. IF you are honest...
thank you
 
P

Polar

Guest
You receive the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:38. It doesn't say you receive gifts (plural) it says you receive THE gift of the Holy Ghost, not gifts of or from the Holy Ghost. It's the spirit itself that we all receive by promise. You can see by reading the scriptures some of which I posted, how people received the gifts, like prophesy, or tongues, etc., which happened as the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands.
since they spoke in tongues. that would indicate a gift...continuing in Acts we also have miracles...healing etc

I don't know what on earth you are saying or trying to imply....I think you are kind of reading into the text and misinterpreting

whatever at this point
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
992
175
43
Oh I see. So water WAS absolutely essential (dunked daubed or sprinkled?). But now you have moved the goalposts and it is actually OBEDIENCE that is the essential work we must ourselves provide before God sees fit to redeem us.

Make up your mind bro....
Daubed or sprinkled is not baptism. Baptism is a transliterated word from the Greek which means to immerse, plunge, dip and not sprinkle, daubed,
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
992
175
43
Excuse me? The Lord Jesus has ALREADY LONG BEEN resurrected at this point.

Mat 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
As I said the only examples are in the name of Jesus Christ. Look at the book of Acts and find an example that says people were baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Neither the Father nor Holy Ghost died forvour sins. Jesus did, it's his body and church and thebway you enter into it is by being baptized into it.
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
992
175
43
None of that proves that nobody ever receives the Holy Spirit before water baptism.
As I attempted to point out, upon baptism WE ALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, that's what the scriptures say in Acts 2:38. But it says you receive the gift not gifts of the Spirit. You receive the manifestation of the gifts through the Spirit by the laying on ofvthe APOSTLE'S hands other than the 2 unique instances of Acts 2 and 10 which were for very special reasons as explained. That's not the norm. The norm is upon baptism for the spirit and by the laying on ofvthe apostle's hands for the various miraculous gifts, and thete are no more apostles.