As I previously posted, there are so many posts by so many people that it's easy to get things mixed up. In light of this, I don't know if you've already made your position clear, but may I ask - Do you believe in the Calvinists' position of "compatibilist freedom" - the idea that God ordained everything - even down to every thought, word and deed of man, while man has freedom to think, say and do what he wants?
Is Calvinism the truth?
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As I previously posted, there are so many posts by so many people that it's easy to get things mixed up. In light of this, I don't know if you've already made your position clear, but may I ask - Do you believe in the Calvinists' position of "compatibilist freedom" - the idea that God ordained everything - even down to every thought, word and deed of man, while man has freedom to think, say and do what he wants?
To anyone reading these posts who is new to the faith and still learning, or if you’re enduring spiritual weakness and unsure of your salvation, rest assured the above post is blatantly incorrect and is actually the exact opposite of Scriptural truth.
Nowhere in the Bible is it written that Christ only died for a few select people. Scripture literally says Jesus died so that the world may be saved. And the word, “world” means exactly that, the world, not just a few select people as the above poster claims.
If Jesus died for only a few select people then Scripture would say exactly that. Do not be misled by the false teachings of people who minimize God’s grace with accusations of you being hopeless and unworthy.
Read John 3:16-17 and rejoice knowing Jesus died for you. Read Mark chapter 16 and rejoice knowing Jesus conquered death and now sits at the right hand of God. Read Matthew 11:28-30 and rejoice knowing you are invited to be with Christ eternally. He invites everyone!
Nowhere in the Bible is it written that Christ only died for a few select people. Scripture literally says Jesus died so that the world may be saved. And the word, “world” means exactly that, the world, not just a few select people as the above poster claims.
If Jesus died for only a few select people then Scripture would say exactly that. Do not be misled by the false teachings of people who minimize God’s grace with accusations of you being hopeless and unworthy.
Read John 3:16-17 and rejoice knowing Jesus died for you. Read Mark chapter 16 and rejoice knowing Jesus conquered death and now sits at the right hand of God. Read Matthew 11:28-30 and rejoice knowing you are invited to be with Christ eternally. He invites everyone!
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I think I did answer, as far as I know this is not a Calvinist doctrine. It is a twisted view of what people BELIEVE Calvinists mean by predestination.
I have never studied Calvin.
From Calvinists I have met I think they believe "all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called to His purpose"
They would say when the Prodigal son came to himself and said "I will return to my father..." this idea came from God.
I have never studied Calvin.
From Calvinists I have met I think they believe "all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called to His purpose"
They would say when the Prodigal son came to himself and said "I will return to my father..." this idea came from God.
That argument was buried sometime between 391ad and 430ad. Many people keep digging that corpse up and beating it to death over and over and over. Augustine wrote, that a man stands by the will and grace of God, but falls by his own will amd is justly punished.
Arminius didnt even start until the mid 1500s I think 1560. I think he is highly misunderstood even though I dont agree with him. I think he was only trying to pull back from the extremes of Beza.
Arminius didnt even start until the mid 1500s I think 1560. I think he is highly misunderstood even though I dont agree with him. I think he was only trying to pull back from the extremes of Beza.
Thanks for replying. Sorry if I prompted you to repeat an answer.
First, I'd like to clarify - When I refer to Calvinism, I mean modern-day Calvinists like James White, rather than Calvin himself. I don't know what HE said, but I've come to believe modern Calvinists have "gone further" than his original beliefs.
After seeing quite a few debates on
this issue by James White and others, it is hard to believe that the Calvinist position is different from how I have presented it.You mentioned "predestination". I think the crucial term is "compatiblist freedom", which is as I described it in my last post, according to Jerry Walls, a Calvinism-denier.
As for your quote about all things coming together for those who love God, I think nearly all Christians would agree with that and has nothing Calvinistic about it.
One thing Jerry Walls mentions, I think with some validity, is that Calvinists tend to be inconsistent in their reasoning at times.
Thanks for replying. Sorry if I prompted you to repeat an answer.
First, I'd like to clarify - When I refer to Calvinism, I mean modern-day Calvinists like James White, rather than Calvin himself. I don't know what HE said, but I've come to believe modern Calvinists have "gone further" than his original beliefs.
After seeing quite a few debates on this issue by James White and others, it is hard to believe that the Calvinist position is different from how I have presented it.
You mentioned "predestination". I think the crucial term is "compatiblist freedom", which is as I described it in my last post, according to Jerry Walls, a Calvinism-denier.
As for your quote about all things coming together for those who love God, I think nearly all Christians would agree with that and has nothing Calvinistic about it.
One thing Jerry Walls mentions, I think with some validity, is that Calvinists tend to be inconsistent in their reasoning at times.
First, I'd like to clarify - When I refer to Calvinism, I mean modern-day Calvinists like James White, rather than Calvin himself. I don't know what HE said, but I've come to believe modern Calvinists have "gone further" than his original beliefs.
After seeing quite a few debates on
this issue by James White and others, it is hard to believe that the Calvinist position is different from how I have presented it.You mentioned "predestination". I think the crucial term is "compatiblist freedom", which is as I described it in my last post, according to Jerry Walls, a Calvinism-denier.
As for your quote about all things coming together for those who love God, I think nearly all Christians would agree with that and has nothing Calvinistic about it.
One thing Jerry Walls mentions, I think with some validity, is that Calvinists tend to be inconsistent in their reasoning at times.
PS - I don't know where the "thumbs up" sign came from - it wasn't my intention.
Thanks for replying. Sorry if I prompted you to repeat an answer.
First, I'd like to clarify - When I refer to Calvinism, I mean modern-day Calvinists like James White, rather than Calvin himself. I don't know what HE said, but I've come to believe modern Calvinists have "gone further" than his original beliefs.
After seeing quite a few debates on this issue by James White and others, it is hard to believe that the Calvinist position is different from how I have presented it.
You mentioned "predestination". I think the crucial term is "compatiblist freedom", which is as I described it in my last post, according to Jerry Walls, a Calvinism-denier.
As for your quote about all things coming together for those who love God, I think nearly all Christians would agree with that and has nothing Calvinistic about it.
One thing Jerry Walls mentions, I think with some validity, is that Calvinists tend to be inconsistent in their reasoning at times.
First, I'd like to clarify - When I refer to Calvinism, I mean modern-day Calvinists like James White, rather than Calvin himself. I don't know what HE said, but I've come to believe modern Calvinists have "gone further" than his original beliefs.
After seeing quite a few debates on
this issue by James White and others, it is hard to believe that the Calvinist position is different from how I have presented it.You mentioned "predestination". I think the crucial term is "compatiblist freedom", which is as I described it in my last post, according to Jerry Walls, a Calvinism-denier.
As for your quote about all things coming together for those who love God, I think nearly all Christians would agree with that and has nothing Calvinistic about it.
One thing Jerry Walls mentions, I think with some validity, is that Calvinists tend to be inconsistent in their reasoning at times.
I don't know if I've missed something relevant, but have you come across and considered the beliefs of James White and the like? - particularly of "compatiblist freedom" which stated that whereas God ordained everything, down to every desire, thought, word and deed of man, man is totally free and "judgeable" to do whatever he desires, thinks, says and does?
I think I get the point of your response - that there's a potential danger in exposing our minds to unorthodox ideas, as it may influence us. However, I think there's also a potential danger in "closing the door on" ideas that we are disinclined to accept, as there may be some truth in them.
Where I stand is - I don't believe Calvinism is true - is seems counter-intuitive, but after listening to a few debates by seeming intelligent people, I sometimes wonder, "Am I missing something?".
What a foolish statement. In the first part, you ACTUALLY ADMIT that there are verses "that allows the unregenerate people to be able to understand and resp[ond to the things of the Spirit". And I ABSOLUTELY accept your verdict, because there ARE such verses that DO allow all people, including the unregenerate to UNDERSTAND AND RESPOND to the Scriptures.
In your next breath, you turn tables and DENY that any unregenerate can understand or respond to the Scriptures that I have chosen.
What a mess. What a flip-flop.
I AM absolutely GUILTY of choosing verses that ALLOW the unregenerate to be able to understand and respond to the gospel message.
Thank you for noticing, even though you then messed it all up with the last part of your sentence.
In your next breath, you turn tables and DENY that any unregenerate can understand or respond to the Scriptures that I have chosen.
What a mess. What a flip-flop.
I AM absolutely GUILTY of choosing verses that ALLOW the unregenerate to be able to understand and respond to the gospel message.
Thank you for noticing, even though you then messed it all up with the last part of your sentence.
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FreeGrace2 said:
OK, it is clear that you don't have stomach for Greek grammar, even though it was the language that gave us the NT. Your bad.
If "faith is one of the 3 eternals" what does that mean and prove it from Scripture.
Huh? "yes....but"???? Really. iow, OK you proved a fact BUT BUT BUT. As if your BUT trumps anything or refutes anything.
If Tyndale supports your NON Greek grammar faulty understanding of Eph 2:8, and you choose to stay with his FAULTY claims, you have no excuse. You can do your own research on biblehub.com and see for yourself.
Oh, sorry, don't bother. I shouldn't bother you with FACTS since your mind is already made up.
How sad.
OK, it is clear that you don't have stomach for Greek grammar, even though it was the language that gave us the NT. Your bad.
If "faith is one of the 3 eternals" what does that mean and prove it from Scripture.
Huh? "yes....but"???? Really. iow, OK you proved a fact BUT BUT BUT. As if your BUT trumps anything or refutes anything.
If Tyndale supports your NON Greek grammar faulty understanding of Eph 2:8, and you choose to stay with his FAULTY claims, you have no excuse. You can do your own research on biblehub.com and see for yourself.
Oh, sorry, don't bother. I shouldn't bother you with FACTS since your mind is already made up.
How sad.
FreeGrace2 said:
If man is not free to choose to believe the gospel promise, then we ARE only puppets. You are kidding yourself to claim otherwise.
You should understand that NO figure of speech is exactly like what it represents.
However, it appears that you haven't considered this verse:
John 10:5 - But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
Even sheep are free to make choices; like rejecting strangers and following their shepherd. Literal sheep, mind you.
This is a choice.
No, what I said is truth. Man is either a mindless puppet, or he is free to make decisions and believe what convinces him, whether right or wrong.
Interesting and SLICK deflection of the obvious truth.
If man isn't making His own decisions, then SOMEONE else is. You can't have it both ways, no matter how much lipstick you smear on that pig.
If man is not free to choose to believe the gospel promise, then we ARE only puppets. You are kidding yourself to claim otherwise.
You should understand that NO figure of speech is exactly like what it represents.
However, it appears that you haven't considered this verse:
John 10:5 - But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
Even sheep are free to make choices; like rejecting strangers and following their shepherd. Literal sheep, mind you.
This is a choice.
No, what I said is truth. Man is either a mindless puppet, or he is free to make decisions and believe what convinces him, whether right or wrong.
Interesting and SLICK deflection of the obvious truth.
If man isn't making His own decisions, then SOMEONE else is. You can't have it both ways, no matter how much lipstick you smear on that pig.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Could you actually point out where I "sound like the critics of Jesus"?
You continue to be confused. I have criticised YOUR doctrine, not biblical doctrine.
I DARE you to find even 1 quote from me that criticizes biblical doctrine. But of course you won't bother. Because you know I haven't done it.
Still no specifics, eh? Of course not. You don't have any.
What I believe comes directly from Scripture. What you claim I have refuted with Scripture.
You don't believe that Christ died for everyone, IN SPITE of the fact that numerous verses SAY He did. That's just one example.
Could you actually point out where I "sound like the critics of Jesus"?
You continue to be confused. I have criticised YOUR doctrine, not biblical doctrine.
I DARE you to find even 1 quote from me that criticizes biblical doctrine. But of course you won't bother. Because you know I haven't done it.
Still no specifics, eh? Of course not. You don't have any.
What I believe comes directly from Scripture. What you claim I have refuted with Scripture.
You don't believe that Christ died for everyone, IN SPITE of the fact that numerous verses SAY He did. That's just one example.