Is Calvinism the truth?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
FreeGrace2 said:
How can unbelievers who are on the trail to destruction be "born again children of God".

Seems you really misunderstand the Word of God. The 2 verses are about those who will go to heaven and those who will go to the LOF.


You should say that while looking directly into a mirror.


That is exactly what you are doing. Unbelievably so.

I have been to Colorado mountains for a week, and am so happy to be home now, to enjoy the good laughs you give to me by some of your answers.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus taught that becoming His sheep is through faith in Him.
The elect, chosen before the foundation of the world, are Jesus's sheep.
OK, so you don't believe that THE sheep become HIS sheep on the basis of faith, but rather your weird idea of being chosen.

If YOU would read the Bible carefully and properly, Eph 1:4 isn't even about salvation. It is about WHO God chose for service. And in the case of Eph 1:4, the "us" is clearly defined by Paul in v.19 by "us who believe".

You seem allergic to the idea that Jesus eternally saves on the basis of faith in Him.

When they are born into this world by natural birth, they are dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-3), But God, who had a great love for his sheep, even when they were dead in sins, hath quickened them together with Christ.. (Eph 2:4-5).
On what basis does God "quicken them"?
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
I have been to Colorado mountains for a week, and am so happy to be home now, to enjoy the good laughs you give to me by some of your answers.
Welcome back. I hope the clear air will have cleared your mind, but I don't think so.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,682
29,022
113
The elect, chosen before the foundation of the world, are Jesus's sheep. When they are born into this world by natural birth, they are dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-3), But God, who had a great love for his sheep, even when they were dead in sins, hath quickened them together with Christ.. (Eph 2:4-5).

Those that are not his sheep, Are goats (Matt 25:32) and goats cannot be changed into sheep.
We were all children of wrath at some point, conformed to the ways of this world and of
the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,769
113
Those that are not his sheep, Are goats (Matt 25:32) and goats cannot be changed into sheep.
Before anyone can become a sheep of Christ, he is simply a sinner on his way to Hell. Therefore every person needs to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is only after that that people become children of God through the New Birth via the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The real issue is whether salvation is offered to absolutely everyone. And since the Bible says that this is true, you have been perverting the Gospel of Christ by claiming that salvation is only for the so-called "elect". That is FALSE DOCTRINE and "another gospel".
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
So you seem to acknowledge that Jesus promised of being delivered (meaning saved eternally). So, please explain to the best of your ability what Jesus promised for Him to save anyone eternally.

John 6:39 - And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me (his sheep that he choose before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4) I should lose nothing, but should raise it (his sheep) up again at the last day (Jesus's promise to his sheep).

Matt 25:32-34 - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Therefore every person needs to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is only after that that people become children of God through the New Birth via the gift of the Holy Spirit

First of all, The unregenerate person will not repent of breaking a spiritual of a spiritual God that he cannot discern, and thinks it is foolishness (1 Cor 2:14). God's elect sheep were in the same shape, being unregenerate (Eph 2:3) until God quickens them together with Christ (Eph 2:5). I believe that you have the cart before the horse.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
FreeGrace2 said:
So you seem to acknowledge that Jesus promised of being delivered (meaning saved eternally). So, please explain to the best of your ability what Jesus promised for Him to save anyone eternally.
John 6:39 - And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me (his sheep that he choose before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4) I should lose nothing, but should raise it (his sheep) up again at the last day (Jesus's promise to his sheep).

Matt 25:32-34 - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
From your "word choice" about how a person is saved eternally, your answer is simply, in so many words, God chooses before He created the world those He would "give" His Son.

So then, there is nothing any person can do to be saved. It was all determined before the foundation of the world. By the time people are born, their eternal destiny has already been chosen or determined.

Interesting. Then Paul's answer to the jailer about what he MUST DO to be saved was to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ was totally wrong.

If that jailer had asked someone of your confusion, he would have been told, "well, there isn't anything you can do. It was already decided before God created the world."

What absurdity!! You really do not understand the Bible. But you have "cleverly" figured out how to get out of your theological hole by redefining all the verses about soul salvation and changing them to only mean deliverance from temporal dangers.

Every verse I quoted to you was about eternal soul salvation. And every one of them included believing in Jesus Christ.

You are turning the Bible on its head. I hope everyone who reads your posts sees your error.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,769
113
I believe that you have the cart before the horse.
This is rich coming from the person who has been putting the cart before the horse daily. You have the ABSURD notion that people receive the Holy Spirit before they repent and believe. The apostles Peter and Paul would laugh at your foolishness. And the Lord Jesus Christ would tell you to stop perverting His Gospel.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
The real issue is whether salvation is offered to absolutely everyone. And since the Bible says that this is true, you have been perverting the Gospel of Christ by claiming that salvation is only for the so-called "elect". That is FALSE DOCTRINE and "another gospel".

Eternal deliverance (salvation) is not an offering to anyone, unless you are misinterpreting scripture.

Christ did not die on the cross to pay for the sins of all mankind, only to those that God gave him, (John 6:39) which was God's chosen sheep before he formed the world, an predetermined that Jesus Christ would adopt them as his children (Eph 1:4-5)
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
This misunderstands what free will is. It is only the freedom to choose between available options.

Man does NOT have the option to choose to be sinless.


This has no bearing on free will.


Spiritually dead in a live body. We still can choose to believe God's promises.


Right, physically dead do not make choices. They have no choices to make.


What verse shows clearly that regenerate precedes faith?

Rather, Paul equates salvation and being made alive (regeneration) in Eph 2:5.

made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Then, in v8, Paul STATES that salvation (along with regeneration) is through faith.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

This proves that faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.

When man believes the gospel-
God saves the man, 1 Cor 1;21
God regenerates the man, Eph 2:8
God makes the believer His child, John 1:12 and Gal 3:26
umm no it doesn't. By grace through faith, and this not of yourself ... so God gave the faith, it is the gift of God. The natural man receiveth not the things of God, neither can he for they are spiritually discerned.

it's all of God

I do believe God when He is moving in power is irresistible ...
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
This misunderstands what free will is. It is only the freedom to choose between available options.

Man does NOT have the option to choose to be sinless.


This has no bearing on free will.


Spiritually dead in a live body. We still can choose to believe God's promises.


Right, physically dead do not make choices. They have no choices to make.


What verse shows clearly that regenerate precedes faith?

Rather, Paul equates salvation and being made alive (regeneration) in Eph 2:5.

made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Then, in v8, Paul STATES that salvation (along with regeneration) is through faith.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

This proves that faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.

When man believes the gospel-
God saves the man, 1 Cor 1;21
God regenerates the man, Eph 2:8
God makes the believer His child, John 1:12 and Gal 3:26
The One who gives the options, He only has free Sovereign will. Man is so wicked that if he had freewill he would say to God "I choose neither of Your options ... but I refuse to die, I refuse to take the consequences"

That's how the devil tricked us in the first place, he said "you will not die" in other words "you can do as you like, it's your freewill"

The doctrine of human freewill is that deception.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
Eternal deliverance (salvation) is not an offering to anyone, unless you are misinterpreting scripture.

Christ did not die on the cross to pay for the sins of all mankind, only to those that God gave him, (John 6:39) which was God's chosen sheep before he formed the world, an predetermined that Jesus Christ would adopt them as his children (Eph 1:4-5)
That takes it further than the scripture says

What we are chosen in Christ for before the world was begun was "to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace" that is to be His people the church ... it doesn't exclude anybody from being saved.

Limited atonement is not scripture.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
FreeGrace2 said:
So you seem to acknowledge that Jesus promised of being delivered (meaning saved eternally). So, please explain to the best of your ability what Jesus promised for Him to save anyone eternally.

From your "word choice" about how a person is saved eternally, your answer is simply, in so many words, God chooses before He created the world those He would "give" His Son.

So then, there is nothing any person can do to be saved. It was all determined before the foundation of the world. By the time people are born, their eternal destiny has already been chosen or determined.

Interesting. Then Paul's answer to the jailer about what he MUST DO to be saved was to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ was totally wrong.

If that jailer had asked someone of your confusion, he would have been told, "well, there isn't anything you can do. It was already decided before God created the world."

What absurdity!! You really do not understand the Bible. But you have "cleverly" figured out how to get out of your theological hole by redefining all the verses about soul salvation and changing them to only mean deliverance from temporal dangers.

Every verse I quoted to you was about eternal soul salvation. And every one of them included believing in Jesus Christ.

You are turning the Bible on its head. I hope everyone who reads your posts sees your error.
You sound just like those, documented, critics of Jesus when he preached the same doctrine for 21 years of his life here on earth. some, being his own disciples.

John 6:60 - Many therefore of his own disciples, when they heard this, said, this is an hard saying, who can hear it?

Mark 4:11 - And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables.



Jo
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
This is rich coming from the person who has been putting the cart before the horse daily. You have the ABSURD notion that people receive the Holy Spirit before they repent and believe. The apostles Peter and Paul would laugh at your foolishness. And the Lord Jesus Christ would tell you to stop perverting His Gospel.

That is what I would expect you to say, because you have not correctly divided the word of truth.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
That takes it further than the scripture says

What we are chosen in Christ for before the world was begun was "to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace" that is to be His people the church ... it doesn't exclude anybody from being saved.

Limited atonement is not scripture.

I would be glad to discuss it with you if you would give me some scriptures that you think backs up your statements.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Eternal deliverance (salvation) is not an offering to anyone, unless you are misinterpreting scripture.
Sure. Then we're just puppets who gets our strings pulled by God. What absurdity.

Christ did not die on the cross to pay for the sins of all mankind
More sheer absurdity.

2 Cor 5:14,15,19 all clearly say that Christ died for everyone.
Heb 2:9 clearly says that Christ died for everyone.
1 Tim 2:3-6 tells us that God wants everyone to be saved. (eternal soul salvation).

[QIUOTE]only to those that God gave him, (John 6:39)[/QUOTE]
How about we look at the whole context:

John 6-
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

v.39 establishes the subject being soul salvation, not being saved from stubbing a toe.
v.40 refutes your unbiblical claims; only those who believe in the Son "shall have eternal life".
v.41-43 are comments from the crowd.
v.44 (Calvinists' favorite) Only those the Father draws people to Jesus will be resurrected.

Here is the clincher:

Only those who listen and learn from the Father will "come to Me". Those who have listened and learned are believers. They are the ones who come to Jesus.

Your theology, or whatever it is, does not come from the Bible.







which was God's chosen sheep before he formed the world, an predetermined that Jesus Christ would adopt them as his children (Eph 1:4-5)[/QUOTE]
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
By grace through faith, and this not of yourself ... so God gave the faith, it is the gift of God.
In the Greek, genders much match to be related in a sentence.

Eph 2:8
For it is by grace (feminine) you have been saved (masculine), through faith (feminine)--and this (neuter) is not from yourselves, it is the gift (masculine) of God--

So you see, grace and faith are feminine while salvation and God's gift are masculine.

So the gift CANNOT be "faith". Impossible in the Greek. Check it out for yourself at biblehub.com.

The natural man receiveth not the things of God, neither can he for they are spiritually discerned.
The gospel is NOT a spiritual issue. It is a trust issue.

Acts 14:23 - Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.

The bolded words refer to those who believed in Jesus Christ. Putting their trust in Christ means to trust in His work on the cross for salvation.

it's all of God
Yes it is.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. Very clear. God offers the promise of salvation and saves those who believe His promise.

I do believe God when He is moving in power is irresistible ...
The Bible has many verses that plainly say that people refuse to believe and refuse to repent.

Are you not aware that in order to REFUSE to do something clearly implies the ABILITY to do it?