Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,498
2,568
113
If we do cease to exist in death (i.e. are annihilated) that doesn't necessarily mean the Most High can't resurrect us. For instance, those who are called and chosen to be conformed to the image of the Son were known by him before they existed, so there's nothing preventing the Most High from redoing what he first did, especially since nothing material is needed for the living God to create.


Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that things that are made did not come from anything that can be seen.

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you..."


...and if resurrection is uniquely in the power of the Most High, all he would have to do is himself remember who existed.

Malachi 3:16
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.


Scripture details several books opening at the judgment. One book is a record of deeds (as scripture explains), which - in a way - IS a book of remembrance, and then the book of life is mentioned separately.

Revelation 20:21
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


So I feel it's well within the realm of possibility for the living God to resurrect a person from non-existence, completely who they were at the moment of their death.
that is in the realm of Gods ability but it also is in His word where and who will go to hell, and the lake of Fire for ever and ever. God does n ot need human aprroval to do what HE said in His word . Jesus said hel is a real place and all who do not know HIM will go to that place forever and ever. Jesus is not a liar .
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
that is in the realm of Gods ability but it also is in His word where and who will go to hell, and the lake of Fire for ever and ever. God does n ot need human aprroval to do what HE said in His word . Jesus said hel is a real place and all who do not know HIM will go to that place forever and ever. Jesus is not a liar .
The Lake of Fire will indeed be real. And those thrown into it, once they die, will be dead forever.

The second death will be permanent. No second chance, no coming back.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,498
2,568
113
The Lake of Fire will indeed be real. And those thrown into it, once they die, will be dead forever.

The second death will be permanent. No second chance, no coming back.
dead forever, is not what it says you cannot change the context or the language of torment forever and ever
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
dead forever, is not what it says you cannot change the context or the language of torment forever and ever
Being alive and "tormented forever and ever" is a direct contradiction of Ecc 9 and many other OT verses that explain what death is.

You should not build a theology on one "difficult" verse, especially when so many others contradict it.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
The preacher has nothing to do with how the hearer receives the Gospel message. God is the one who makes people believe or reject the Gospel. The preacher has no power to influence the hearer either way. God chooses who will believe and who will reject, no man decides that

M...,
Wrong...and nothing could be further from fact.
Most people follow their pastor.....and rarely read or verify info with scripture. Thus the reason we see so many wrong positions on scripture...even here on this board.......including yours.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
Being alive and "tormented forever and ever" is a direct contradiction of Ecc 9 and many other OT verses that explain what death is.

You should not build a theology on one "difficult" verse, especially when so many others contradict it.
s....,
Suggest you look at the NT and validate that position.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
p.......,
Suggest you do not use one NT verse to build a theology that contradicts what the OT tells us about death.

s...,

There is your spin...where did I say...one?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,524
113
dead forever, is not what it says you cannot change the context or the language of torment forever and ever

I think it is referring to the smoke of their torment never to rise to new spirit life ever again
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
M...,
Wrong...and nothing could be further from fact.
Most people follow their pastor.....and rarely read or verify info with scripture. Thus the reason we see so many wrong positions on scripture...even here on this board.......including yours.
I'm not talking about the dummies who just swallow anything they hear without question. They can not be considered Christians, they are just members of a cult.
I'm talking about anyone who hears the Gospel being preached (remember there's only one Gospel) and if they accept or reject it. I said it's not their own choice to believe or reject, God either causes them to believe it or reject it. Now is that too difficult for you to process or do I still need to simplify it further for you so you can understand it.
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
28
I'm not talking about the dummies who just swallow anything they hear without question. They can not be considered Christians, they are just members of a cult.
I'm talking about anyone who hears the Gospel being preached (remember there's only one Gospel) and if they accept or reject it. I said it's not their own choice to believe or reject, God either causes them to believe it or reject it. Now is that too difficult for you to process or do I still need to simplify it further for you so you can understand it.
God will not cause them to reject the gospel because they have already rejected the gospel even though may have heard in the past. That is to say before anybody has ever becomed saved they have rejected the gospel because of their sin nature.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
I'm not talking about the dummies who just swallow anything they hear without question. They can not be considered Christians, they are just members of a cult.
I'm talking about anyone who hears the Gospel being preached (remember there's only one Gospel) and if they accept or reject it. I said it's not their own choice to believe or reject, God either causes them to believe it or reject it.
So is God being disingenuous here?

Deut 30:
19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Now is that too difficult for you to process or do I still need to simplify it further for you so you can understand it.
Your snark is developing quite nicely. Soon you’ll be as proficient as anyone here.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
I'm not talking about the dummies who just swallow anything they hear without question. They can not be considered Christians, they are just members of a cult.
I'm talking about anyone who hears the Gospel being preached (remember there's only one Gospel) and if they accept or reject it. I said it's not their own choice to believe or reject, God either causes them to believe it or reject it. Now is that too difficult for you to process or do I still need to simplify it further for you so you can understand it.
M....,

As I said..."wrong".
 

Jaybrewer

Junior Member
May 17, 2018
30
4
8
55
Austin, Texas
Mark I already know what your church teaches and unfortunately they are wrong on their idea, but rather there is no place of suffering and torment despite what many say. Once the unsaved die that is it for them they will never receive life again unlike the true believers [Ps. 31:17, Eccl 9:5] The language that one reads about eternal torment and suffering, where the worm dies, eternal damnation...etc are all a reference to God's judgment of the unsaved it is forever. There is no need to worry about your brother being in a place of hell right now sure he is in hell but rather said it is the grave.
To the OP: Sorry about your loss. I lost my brother in May. When a relative dies, you bet that if you're Christian, you're going to go into overdrive reading texts to make sure they're going to be okay on the other side.

In response to the above quote and poster:
The only mention, I think, of beings being tormented forever and ever in Hell are the Devil, his angels, and the False Prophet. There is the mention in Romans that the gift of God is eternal life and the wages of sin is death, which is interpreted by Annihilationists that eternal life in hell is impossible, as eternal life is given only to those in Christ Jesus. This would mean that hell is the mode of final destruction of the wicked, i.e. no eternal life in torment in hell but eternal oblivion by way of its flame.

My personal opinion (for what it matters) is that an omnibenevolent God would not want evil to forever exist, even in the form of punitive pain. Pain is pain, and an omnibenevolent God ensuring the future universe no longer contains pain would not allow a small corner of it to exist to eternally punish people for things they have done in a meager 70-100 years, but would remove the wicked from existence altogether, leaving only the righteous to live forever.

But there's the English translation of the bible and all the various and sundry arguments and disagreements in regard to whether or not it is an accurate translation from the ancient texts so....
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
To the OP: Sorry about your loss. I lost my brother in May. When a relative dies, you bet that if you're Christian, you're going to go into overdrive reading texts to make sure they're going to be okay on the other side.

In response to the above quote and poster: The only mention, I think, of beings being tormented forever and ever in Hell are the Devil, his angels, and the False Prophet. There is the mention in Romans that the gift of God is eternal life and the wages of sin is death, which is interpreted by Annihilationists that eternal life in hell is impossible, as eternal life is given only to those in Christ Jesus. This would mean that hell is the mode of final destruction of the wicked, i.e. no eternal life in torment in hell but eternal oblivion by way of its flame.

My personal opinion (for what it matters) is that an omnibenevolent God would not want evil to forever exist, even in the form of punitive pain. Pain is pain, and an omnibenevolent God ensuring the future universe no longer contains pain would not allow a small corner of it to exist to eternally punish people for things they have done in a meager 70-100 years, but would remove the wicked from existence altogether, leaving only the righteous to live forever.

But there's the English translation of the bible and all the various and sundry arguments and disagreements in regard to whether or not it is an accurate translation from the ancient texts so....
I find the concept of eternal torment in flames, extremely hard to accept. But I also find quick annihilation insufficient punishment for some who have committed extremely evil acts, like some war criminals who rape and torture children for a long time before they eventually kill them.
A quick death and then non existence would be like rewarding them for their evil deeds. I say this as a sinner, so imagine how much more a Holy and infinitely righteous and just God who hates sin and has great wrath towards the wicked will want to punish the wicked adequately.
As fallen sinners we are not in a position to disagree with anything God does, even if we find it extremely unfair.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,081
2,332
113
To the OP: Sorry about your loss. I lost my brother in May. When a relative dies, you bet that if you're Christian, you're going to go into overdrive reading texts to make sure they're going to be okay on the other side.

In response to the above quote and poster: The only mention, I think, of beings being tormented forever and ever in Hell are the Devil, his angels, and the False Prophet. There is the mention in Romans that the gift of God is eternal life and the wages of sin is death, which is interpreted by Annihilationists that eternal life in hell is impossible, as eternal life is given only to those in Christ Jesus. This would mean that hell is the mode of final destruction of the wicked, i.e. no eternal life in torment in hell but eternal oblivion by way of its flame.
There are many scriptures that refer to the wicked as being tormented forever and ever and not just Satan, his angels, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone who dies unreconciled to God through faith in the shed blood of Christ will suffer eternal torment. Consider the following:

"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"

The above is the sheep and the goat judgment which takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The goats are being thrown into eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I've listed the above before and I'll list it here again. The word "aionios" translated as "eternal," which depending on the context, can mean "a cycle of time, an age or never ending." The same word is used to describe the state of the wicked and the righteous and therefore must retain the same meaning. Therefore, since eternal life is on-going existence in the joy of the Lord, the eternal punishment must be on-going existence in separation from God in punishment.

"And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

The above scripture is regarding those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. Notice that it states that those who do so will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever and the will have no rest day or night. The word "basanizó" translated as "torment" is defined as "universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment." in order for the smoke of ones torment to rise up forever and ever and to have no rest day or night, one would have to be conscious and existing in order to experience that.

My personal opinion (for what it matters) is that an omnibenevolent God would not want evil to forever exist, even in the form of punitive pain. Pain is pain, and an omnibenevolent God ensuring the future universe no longer contains pain would not allow a small corner of it to exist to eternally punish people for things they have done in a meager 70-100 years, but would remove the wicked from existence altogether, leaving only the righteous to live forever.
Forgive me, but this is not about personal opinion, but what God's word says. Though God is full of grace and mercy, He is also a God of righteous judgment. God's love, His grace and His mercy come to an end for those who die rejecting Christ. At the time of death an individuals record is sealed. For the person who dies in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. For those who die without Christ, they will be accountable for their own sins. You've heard of the term, "the judge will throw the book at you?" Well, that is exactly what will happen to those at the great white throne judgment, where the books will be opened containing everything they ever did and they will be judged for all of it.

Furthermore, those "things they have done in a meager 70-100 years" is not the issue, but as king David understood when he committed adultery against Uriah and had him killed when he said to God, "against you alone have I sinned." Therefore, eternal punishment is for sinning against a righteous, holy and eternal God, which is not meager.

But there's the English translation of the bible and all the various and sundry arguments and disagreements in regard to whether or not it is an accurate translation from the ancient texts so....
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. "

If we couldn't trust even one part of the word of God, then we wouldn't be able to trust any of it, including our forgiveness for sins and the promise of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
Why do some folks attempt to apply political correctness to The Bible?
Can't you see ......it doesn't fit.......and only serves to destroy the intent and true meaning of G-d's commandments?
 
W

whatev

Guest
Lord, please reach Mark with your comfort, your love, and your understanding as he struggles with how his brother killed himself. Please help him sift through all the things we much prefer to delve into rather than dealing with the pain itself. Help him to not bury the pain in a bunch of useless mind games, and side issues, and bring him to the point of understanding your plan for him, and his brother, in such a way that he realizes the glory of you and the pain we have caused in our sin. Give him the comfort only you can give when walking through pain that will last all our lives on earth. And give him your answers, instead of a thousand differently scholarly answers.

Teach him what he needs to know and love him the way no one else can. Remind him, and all of our, our constant need for that hope we have in you.

Thank you for lowering yourself down to our level that we may see what a perfect life looks like, and that we may know you were tempted every way we have been tempted. Thank you for your comfort in that. Some things are harder to deal with than other things.

Glory to you, Lord for going so far to love us knowing how bad we are and how much love we need. Amen.