Is faith a work?

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Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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The bit in Ezekiel is about being born again of "water and Spirit" see John 3. Yes faith is required.

It's quite simple, people don't receive the Holy Spirit without faith. The regeneration comes from the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 KJV
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Galatians 3:14 KJV
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.



Everyone starts off with that kind of heart, even you.

Titus 3:3-5
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[/QUOTE]
I'm not following your reasoning. What point are you making?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Rather than just include your partical quote in my post, here is all that I said:

Why do you say this? Because it is the most common view of the GC? Do you have evidence that it is for everyone?
It specifics commands to "go into all the world" and make disciples, and then "teach them everything I have commanded YOU".
If that is for everyone, then about 90+% of all believers have failed miserably.
Matthew 28 says this:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The "them" refers to "all nations." In the Bible, when a reference is made to the nations it is usually referring to non-Jewish Gentile people. If you look up the word nations there in Matt. 28:18 you'll see what I am saying. You can trace this word all over the NT and in the OT a Hebrew word is used in a similar way.
I asked for evidence that the GC was for everyone, as you claimed. This isn't evidence of that.

There's variation of what the GC depending on the write. Mark 16 puts it like this:

15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

All creation = all people.
Doesn't provide the evidence that you need to support your claim.

Yes it is for everyone
The command is NOT for every believer, which I will prove.

Everyone is a missionary no matter where tey are.
Are you aware that the GC isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in the epistles?

Doesn't need to be like Paul who traveled far and wide; you are a missionary if you're on this website, at the grocery store, or even in church.
That's hardly "go into all the world". You are watering down the GC by this line of thought. And after you've led someone to Christ at the grocery store, did you "teach them EVERYTHING I have taught YOU"? Well?

The GC was given ONLY to 11 men.

Matt 28-
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

How many of your converts did you baptize and then teach them EVERYTHING Jesus taught you? We all know the answer.

Mark 16-
14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Then, there is one more passage of evidence; Acts 1

1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

v.2 is a reference to the giving of the GC to the Eleven apostles.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

So, we see clearly that Jesus gave the GC to The Eleven. It was their "marching orders". And they fulfilled that command within the first century.

btw, Luke noted the number of believers after Jesus was ascended:

Acts 1:15 - In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)

Point being, if Jesus meant the GC for every believer, He would have included all 120 and commissioned all of them.

Instead, He commissioned those He had personally taught, over the course of His 3.5 year ministry.

So, is the GC no longer an issue? No, because every generation needs to be evangelized, not just the generation in the first century.

There is a verse that specifically refers to the 2 parts of the GC.

Eph 4-
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

v.11 are the spiritual gifts for fulfilling the GC in each generation.
v.12 is the purpose of these specific spiritual gifts.
v.13 is the ultimate goal of these spiritual gifts for every generation.

So, if preaching the gospel, baptizing, and teaching the converts EVERYTHING Jesus taught, what is the responsibility of each believer; those who do not have the spiritual gifts of v.11?

Col 4:6 -
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

1 Peter 3:15 - But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Philemon 6 - and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ.

So, these 3 verses show the responsibility of every believer; to share their faith with others, and especially to be prepared for those who have questions because they SEE our faith by our lives and are curious.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You are deliberately contentious - something you do with others - and I have no interest in engaging with someone of that mindset and so you can continue to try to pick a fight but I choose to take Scriptural counsel and to turn down fights. Goodbye.
Interesting comment, when this was in my post that you are responding to:


Please kindly point out what inconsistencies/contradictions you have perceived in my posts, with explanations of why they are.

Also, please kindly point out any error on my part regarding what you "perceive" as my view of Calvin/Calvinists.

Yeah, real "contentious", huh.

I suspect that you are aware that you don't have verses that say what you say, so you aren't interested in further discussion.

Things get clear real quick when using the Berean study method, which is to "search the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul or whoever says is true.

iow, compare what others say with what Scripture says. That technique never fails to get to the bottom line, and real quick.

Those who know the truth have verses that say what they claim.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Rather than just include your partical quote in my post, here is all that I said:

Why do you say this? Because it is the most common view of the GC? Do you have evidence that it is for everyone?
It specifics commands to "go into all the world" and make disciples, and then "teach them everything I have commanded YOU".
If that is for everyone, then about 90+% of all believers have failed miserably.

I asked for evidence that the GC was for everyone, as you claimed. This isn't evidence of that.


Doesn't provide the evidence that you need to support your claim.


The command is NOT for every believer, which I will prove.


Are you aware that the GC isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in the epistles?


That's hardly "go into all the world". You are watering down the GC by this line of thought. And after you've led someone to Christ at the grocery store, did you "teach them EVERYTHING I have taught YOU"? Well?

The GC was given ONLY to 11 men.

Matt 28-
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

How many of your converts did you baptize and then teach them EVERYTHING Jesus taught you? We all know the answer.

Mark 16-
14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Then, there is one more passage of evidence; Acts 1

1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

v.2 is a reference to the giving of the GC to the Eleven apostles.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

So, we see clearly that Jesus gave the GC to The Eleven. It was their "marching orders". And they fulfilled that command within the first century.

btw, Luke noted the number of believers after Jesus was ascended:

Acts 1:15 - In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)

Point being, if Jesus meant the GC for every believer, He would have included all 120 and commissioned all of them.

Instead, He commissioned those He had personally taught, over the course of His 3.5 year ministry.

So, is the GC no longer an issue? No, because every generation needs to be evangelized, not just the generation in the first century.

There is a verse that specifically refers to the 2 parts of the GC.

Eph 4-
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

v.11 are the spiritual gifts for fulfilling the GC in each generation.
v.12 is the purpose of these specific spiritual gifts.
v.13 is the ultimate goal of these spiritual gifts for every generation.

So, if preaching the gospel, baptizing, and teaching the converts EVERYTHING Jesus taught, what is the responsibility of each believer; those who do not have the spiritual gifts of v.11?

Col 4:6 -
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

1 Peter 3:15 - But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Philemon 6 - and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ.

So, these 3 verses show the responsibility of every believer; to share their faith with others, and especially to be prepared for those who have questions because they SEE our faith by our lives and are curious.
I just showed you proof (not evidence) that the GC applies to all believers.

You thought it only applied to the 11 apostles who were present prior to Jesus' ascension? By that logic, John 3:16, everything else Jesus said, everything the apostles, various prophets, and preachers said only applied to the audience to which they were speaking. No wonder people are so confused, they are cherry picking what to follow and not follow based on a subjective mystery metric of their own choosing.

The Bible doesn't even talk in depth about most of the apostles, where they went, what they did, who the preached to. How do you know they fulfilled the commission of Jesus or not? How about Paul who seems to have never been directly told by Jesus to make disciples and baptize them, but Paul did it anyway?

Aside from that, Paul gave a command in 2 Timothy 4 to preach the word.

1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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So then, I guess you don't believe that "Conversion" is progressive either?

While I do believe that God is totally Sovereign over all things - it seems you are minimizing our responsibilities once initially Regenerated, Indwelled (God's Sovereign work) and believe (Our responsibility). God works in us and through us to do His Good Pleasure but we are not absent in this process.

It is our responsibility to grow in knowledge and grace. God gives the increase but believer's must "seek" it. Some believers study the Scriptures day and night, others not so much. Likewise, believers are to mortify the deeds of the flesh. The Holy Spirit aids us in this endeavor but it is our flesh and we must desire to mortify and keep it under control. The believer cannot just sit back and believe that God is going to do everything for him.
Salvation from A to Z is 110% all of God, conversion initially and all and other subsequent conversions are of God. Like Peter, he experiences a conversion Lk 22:32


But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Notice he is passive in this conversion. All of the Salvation of Gods people from here to Glory God is responsible for friend. Even our growth in Grace and Knowledge !
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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Not exactly. The conditions of the “field” are actually external influences beyond one’s control that keep the “seed” from growing.

Among those external influences are the evil one, trouble, persecution, worries, and the deceitfulness of wealth that keep the seed, or word of God, from taking root. It has nothing to do with the person because every single person is capable of having faith in God if they can overcome those challenges. Hence why faith is a work.

In a perfect world with no evil one, troubles, deceptions, etc there would be no external influences that keep the word of God from producing a large crop on the field of someone’s heart.

It’s all right there in Matthew 13:18-23.
actually it is the root that is the determining factor

The last one is rooted in christ. Hence it is christ who feeds the seed and the stem so it produces fruit.

The roots of the other three were not grounded in Christ. Hence it could not overcome the world.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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Faith is not requisite for regeneration but regeneration for saving Faith. Dead people cannot believe unto salvation any more than Lazarus could respond to Jesus unless he was first made alive.
It might be helpful to read the parable in Luke 15. It is 1 parable with 3 stories.
Most would recognize the good shepherd as Jesus whose blood has made forgiveness possible and who seeks out the lost sheep.
The story concerning the lost coin is representative of the work of the Holy Spirit who comes and enlightens us and cleanses us.
Only after these does the story of the prodigal come. It is here that the experiential part of salvation comes. The circumstances of life allow us to see that life with the father is far superior to life apart from him.
Notice in the story when it says he came to himself. That is the moment of regeneration. That is the point referred to in John 1:12 that he was given the power to become of God.
It is still his faith that he believes with but it is a faith that has been changed by the work of God in him. That is the grace that is not of himself and so is not his doing and, thus, not a work on his behalf.
once again this is a false dichotomy.

Regeneration can not occur until Justification occurs. and it is through faith we are justified.

The root is Christ (the author and finisher of our faith)

Lazarus was saved before he died physically. He was ressurected in that saved state

The prodigal son was a son before he left. he had already recieved his inheritance. He just returned to his father after leaving, and was again made alive through access to his father..
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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WB: In talking about someone who makes a false claim you've moved the goalposts because I've been talking about an unbeliever being made spiritually alive i.e. regenerated i.e. born again in an instant when God's gift of faith 'opens the (former) unbelievers mind and heart to the reality of Jesus Christ at which time he is also saved by his gifted faith.
Romans 1 says there is no excuse. because we know God.

God convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgement, so again there is no excuse

God told abraham he was going to do something, Abraham merely believed and was saved based ont hat faith

Same with Noah.

God did not make them alive by supernaturally giving them faith by making them alive. He showed himself to them. and they saw how trustworthy he was. He did that with me, He does that with all his children.

The gift of faith is the cross. because apart from the cross. Faith would be useless.

again I keep going back to the person drowning in the rough seas with no hope. God came to save them. the person sees him rescue other people. And they turn and learn to trust in him, to repent. to stop trying to save themselves or fail to see their need for salvation. At that time, they stop working, enter rest. tell Jesus yes, Please save me, cry out fo Gods mercy. And God saves them through justification

At that time in that moment, they are made alive or born again.

remember in John 3, Belief (faith) came first. then came life (eternal)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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The field is the heart. If God hasn't done a work in the heart, the gospel will not be received.
That is why in Ezekiel God says He will take out the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh.
It is also why it is worth noting how Jeremiah described the natural heart
as wicked and deceitful. How can one believe with that kind of heart?

Ezekiel 36:25-26
:)
 
Mar 4, 2020
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actually it is the root that is the determining factor

The last one is rooted in christ. Hence it is christ who feeds the seed and the stem so it produces fruit.

The roots of the other three were not grounded in Christ. Hence it could not overcome the world.
Not sure where you got all that from exactly. Just stick with what the passage says and you’ll be fine.

The seed is the “message of the kingdom.” If it doesn’t take root it means that some external influence, such as the evil one, sabotaged it.

Matthew 13
19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

Hearing, receiving, and believing the word of God, the message of the kingdom, the gospel, or whatever you want to call it can’t be minimized.

Not everything in the Bible is hyperspiritualized. Our physical bodies and mental faculties are involved in this process. The verse I quoted above is conclusive about that, but it doesn’t stop there. This is supported throughout the Bible.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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No. God gives life, too, and many reject it.
I can’t really tell what part of my post you’re responding to, but it seems like we’re in agreement.

Generally speaking, the Lord gives life and the Lord takes it away. Most people wouldn’t voluntarily reject life if they truly understood what they were rejecting.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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Not sure where you got all that from exactly. Just stick with what the passage says and you’ll be fine.

The seed is the “message of the kingdom.” If it doesn’t take root it means that some external influence, such as the evil one, sabotaged it.

Matthew 13
19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

Hearing, receiving, and believing the word of God, the message of the kingdom, the gospel, or whatever you want to call it can’t be minimized.

Not everything in the Bible is hyperspiritualized. Our physical bodies and mental faculties are involved in this process. The verse I quoted above is conclusive about that, but it doesn’t stop there. This is supported throughout the Bible.
your right, the seed is the message

But what is missing is the root

in the first one, had no root and was quickly swept away

the second one again has no root. and had mere belief

the third were chocked. and the word could not get it

the forth was rooted in Christ. and produced fruit..

Only the 4th saw salvation because only the 4th was rooted in christ. and as such produced fruit..
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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I can’t really tell what part of my post you’re responding to, but it seems like we’re in agreement.

Generally speaking, the Lord gives life and the Lord takes it away. Most people wouldn’t voluntarily reject life if they truly understood what they were rejecting.
take this as an example. why would someone who TRULY understood life reject it long after they received it and were blessed by it.

They would not
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I can’t really tell what part of my post you’re responding to, but it seems like we’re in agreement.

Generally speaking, the Lord gives life and the Lord takes it away. Most people
wouldn’t voluntarily reject life if they truly understood what they were rejecting.
You ended your post with a question: does this make sense? I responded in the negative. In totality, it did not make sense.

The question is whether faith is God-given or not. God gives things people reject.

I do not agree with your idea that we get faith from someone else, either.

Most people would not reject God either, if they knew Who/What they were rejecting.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but regarding rejecting life: abortion comes to mind.

I see numbers in the millions being given, just in the last forty some-odd years.
 
Oct 10, 2022
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freegrace

Your statement cannot be found in that verse.
It doesnt have to be found in that verse, its concluded from this verse Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Now that statement from Christ is proof that one must be born of God to hear Gods words.
 
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lol

God will not make my decision for me.

But it is all of his work..
Again Faith to believe is either given by God, which is a work of His Grace, or its your faith to believe found in your nature, which constitutes it a work of your flesh. Its either or, take your pick friend.
 
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You need to look inside my friend. You were Gods enemy before you came to him. You were a worker of iniquity. If God did not die for them. You (and me for that matter) have no hope

Jesus said He came to die for the world. That's everyone.
Like I said, you can tell a person God so loved the world, which is quite different from telling Indvidual's God loved them. Wonder if you said that to esau Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. You would have lied to esau!

There are a lot of people who are esaus that you may be lying to friend.