Is faith a work?

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

Well then no one can be saved.

Because God will not make a person alive in sin. Its impossible. based on his perfect character

Salvation is impossible with man, thats what the disciples concluded:

Matt 19:24-26

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Again Faith to believe is either given by God, which is a work of His Grace, or its your faith to believe found in your nature, which constitutes it a work of your flesh. Its either or, take your pick friend.

Again, I can not agree
My faith is either in God and all he says

or in self. in rejection to God

God does not make my decision for me.. He does not make it so I can not deny him, and he will nit make it so I would never recieve him

That's against his character

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Like I said, you can tell a person God so loved the world, which is quite different from telling Indvidual's God loved them. Wonder if you said that to esau Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. You would have lied to esau!

There are a lot of people who are esaus that you may be lying to friend.

you have romans 9 all messed up

In context. God loved jacob (Israel) but hated esau (edom) (in the hebrew, (in hebrew, the term hates literally means love less see in the NT where Jesus says we must hate our father and mother. He did nto literally say we must hate them, we we are to love and honor them..he means love our parents less than God)

God did not hate the child and determine he was going to hell. For all we know. he personally will be in heaven. there is nothign that states otherwise

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Salvation is impossible with man, thats what the disciples concluded:

Matt 19:24-26

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Your right,

I can not rescue myself

thats why I must let God rescue me..

I can reject his offer. Many have and many will

But many will recieve his offering of rescue

 

[FreeGrace2]

I just showed you proof (not evidence) that the GC applies to all believers.

No you didn't. I proved that the GC was for just the 11 apostles. Didn't you read the 3 texts?

You thought it only applied to the 11 apostles who were present prior to Jesus' ascension?

OK, so you didn't read all of the 3 texts. Only Acts 1 mentioned the ascension. However, in Matt 28, the 11 weren't even in Jerusalem, so that would indicate that Acts 1 was a review of what Jesus had previously told them. And Mark 16 doesn't mention an ascension either.

And Acts 1:15 tells us that the followers of Jesus numbers about 120. Did Jesus address all of them and commission all of them? No.

By that logic, John 3:16, everything else Jesus said, everything the apostles, various prophets, and preachers said only applied to the audience to which they were speaking.

That's just silly. Jesus literally commissioned the 11 whom He had personally taught and trained for 3/5 years.

No wonder people are so confused, they are cherry picking what to follow and not follow based on a subjective mystery metric of their own choosing.

Cherry picking? Good grief, man. Get real. I provided ALL 3 times in the gospels that the GC was given and ONLY 11 were present.

Do facts EVER mean anything to you?

The Bible doesn't even talk in depth about most of the apostles, where they went, what they did, who the preached to. How do you know they fulfilled the commission of Jesus or not?

Because I have read the book of "the Acts of the apostles" over 240 times. It's all there. But yes, most of the apostles weren't mentioned. Mostly Peter, Paul, James, John, and some deacons.

How about Paul who seems to have never been directly told by Jesus to make disciples and baptize them, but Paul did it anyway?

He was the legitimate 12 apostle. He fulfilled the GC far more than any other apostle. Probably did more than all of the rest of them, since most of them aren't even mentioned in the book of Acts.

Aside from that, Paul gave a command in 2 Timothy 4 to preach the word.

Thank you for making my point!! Who was Tim? A pastor. To whom did I say the GC was directed in the NT to carry on the work of the GC?

Eph 4-
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

v.11 are the spiritual gifts for fulfilling the GC in each generation.
v.12 is the purpose of these specific spiritual gifts.
v.13 is the ultimate goal of these spiritual gifts for every generation.

Post 562 has all the verses that prove my claim. You should have read the whole post.

1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine

Tim wasn't a pew warmer, but a pastor.

Eph 4:11-13 show who the GC is for: those with the spiritual gift of evangelist, pastors, teachers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
Your statement cannot be found in that verse.

freegrace
It doesnt have to be found in that verse, its concluded from this verse Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Now that statement from Christ is proof that one must be born of God to hear Gods words.

That would be your opinion, yes. But Jesus didn't say anything about being born of God in order to hear God's words.

Throughout the NT, the issue in salvation is hearing the gospel. Not being born again in order to hear the message. You cannot prove your claim with any verse, much less with Jn 8:47.

And I have proved from Eph 2:5 and 8 that faith precedes both salvation and regeneration, so you have no point.

 

[WillB]

Romans 1 says there is no excuse. because we know God.

God convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgement, so again there is no excuse

God told abraham he was going to do something, Abraham merely believed and was saved based ont hat faith

Same with Noah.

God did not make them alive by supernaturally giving them faith by making them alive. He showed himself to them. and they saw how trustworthy he was. He did that with me, He does that with all his children.

The gift of faith is the cross. because apart from the cross. Faith would be useless.

again I keep going back to the person drowning in the rough seas with no hope. God came to save them. the person sees him rescue other people. And they turn and learn to trust in him, to repent. to stop trying to save themselves or fail to see their need for salvation. At that time, they stop working, enter rest. tell Jesus yes, Please save me, cry out fo Gods mercy. And God saves them through justification

At that time in that moment, they are made alive or born again.

remember in John 3, Belief (faith) came first. then came life (eternal)

WB: In talking about someone who makes a false claim you've moved the goalposts because I've been talking about an unbeliever being made spiritually alive i.e. regenerated i.e. born again in an instant when God's gift of faith 'opens the (former) unbelievers mind and heart to the reality of Jesus Christ at which time he is also saved by his gifted faith.
Romans 1 says there is no excuse. because we know God.

God convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgement, so again there is no excuse

God told abraham he was going to do something, Abraham merely believed and was saved based ont hat faith

Same with Noah.

God did not make them alive by supernaturally giving them faith by making them alive. He showed himself to them. and they saw how trustworthy he was. He did that with me, He does that with all his children.

The gift of faith is the cross. because apart from the cross. Faith would be useless.

again I keep going back to the person drowning in the rough seas with no hope. God came to save them. the person sees him rescue other people. And they turn and learn to trust in him, to repent. to stop trying to save themselves or fail to see their need for salvation. At that time, they stop working, enter rest. tell Jesus yes, Please save me, cry out fo Gods mercy. And God saves them through justification

At that time in that moment, they are made alive or born again.

remember in John 3, Belief (faith) came first. then came life (eternal)

WB: With respect, I would like to suggest that you re-read your post slowly and take notes of what you;ve written because you are not making a consistent and clear argument.

I’m not going to go over each and every point but will suggest that this exercise will help you to better express yourself free of ‘fuzziness’ and with clarity.

I’ll make just one further point for you to consider in the context of faith and your comments about it in relation of Abraham and Noah (and others).

Please read Hebrews chapter 11 and with focus on verses 6, 7, 8

Thank you.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I choose to take Scriptural counsel

Amen, Precious friend, and A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

 

[Runningman]

Salvation from A to Z is 110% all of God, conversion initially and all and other subsequent conversions are of God. Like Peter, he experiences a conversion Lk 22:32


But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Notice he is passive in this conversion. All of the Salvation of Gods people from here to Glory God is responsible for friend. Even our growth in Grace and Knowledge !

While that sounds good, unfortunately that isn't Biblical since the faith required to be saved is obtained by hearing and understanding the gospel preached. Don't forget, we are humans with ears and a brain that processes information.

For example, you could preach the gospel in Mandarin with passion, conviction, and sincerity to a crowd of 50 million people while demonstrating many miracles. The only problem is, if people don't understand what you're saying then you've wasted your time. Faith requires our physical effort, active listening, and understanding; it's quite plain.

 

[Magenta]

Like I said, you can tell a person God so loved the world, which is quite different from telling Indvidual's God loved them. Wonder if you said that to esau Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. You would have lied to esau!

There are a lot of people who are esaus that you may be lying to friend.

Esau and Jacob were called nations while in Rebekah's womb. Esau represents Edom... God's (and Israel's) enemy. Jacob = Israel.

 

[Runningman]

Amen! Justification through redemption!

Justification through our faith.

Romans 5:1,2
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

 

[Runningman]

take this as an example. why would someone who TRULY understood life reject it long after they received it and were blessed by it.

They would not

Because living can be extremely difficult. People can and do take their own life well into their adulthood, very sadly.

 

[Runningman]

The question is whether faith is God-given or not. God gives things people reject.

I do not agree with your idea that we get faith from someone else, either.

Do you mean God gives us faith in the sense that He has enabled us to have faith if we so chose?

 

[Runningman]

No you didn't. I proved that the GC was for just the 11 apostles. Didn't you read the 3 texts?


OK, so you didn't read all of the 3 texts. Only Acts 1 mentioned the ascension. However, in Matt 28, the 11 weren't even in Jerusalem, so that would indicate that Acts 1 was a review of what Jesus had previously told them. And Mark 16 doesn't mention an ascension either.

And Acts 1:15 tells us that the followers of Jesus numbers about 120. Did Jesus address all of them and commission all of them? No.


That's just silly. Jesus literally commissioned the 11 whom He had personally taught and trained for 3/5 years.


Cherry picking? Good grief, man. Get real. I provided ALL 3 times in the gospels that the GC was given and ONLY 11 were present.

Do facts EVER mean anything to you?

Not following your line of reasoning here. How did you decide what applies to the 11 apostles, what doesn't, and what applies to people today?

Because I have read the book of "the Acts of the apostles" over 240 times. It's all there. But yes, most of the apostles weren't mentioned. Mostly Peter, Paul, James, John, and some deacons.


He was the legitimate 12 apostle. He fulfilled the GC far more than any other apostle. Probably did more than all of the rest of them, since most of them aren't even mentioned in the book of Acts.

Depending how you want to look at it, Paul was either the 13th or 14th apostle. Matthias was the 12th or 13th since he took Judas' place. If you had read Acts over 240 times you would know this.

Acts 1:21-26
21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Thank you for making my point!! Who was Tim? A pastor. To whom did I say the GC was directed in the NT to carry on the work of the GC?

Eph 4-
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

v.11 are the spiritual gifts for fulfilling the GC in each generation.
v.12 is the purpose of these specific spiritual gifts.
v.13 is the ultimate goal of these spiritual gifts for every generation.

Post 562 has all the verses that prove my claim. You should have read the whole post.


Tim wasn't a pew warmer, but a pastor.

Eph 4:11-13 show who the GC is for: those with the spiritual gift of evangelist, pastors, teachers.

Okay you're free to believe it your way if you want. Do you believe you're personally required to fulfill the GC?

 

[Grandpa]

It makes more sense that God requires our faith, at least initially, or it would undermine the command for there being a Great Commission, going into all the world, preaching the gospel, and missionary work. God can increase our faith afterwards.

If God provides initial faith then why we are repeatedly told to have faith and told the consequences of not having faith throughout the Bible. God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance.

If what you're saying is true, then in my own words this is how I would start interpreting the Bible:

"God requires faith, but He only gives faith as a gift to certain people. Meanwhile, He is desiring that everyone repents, but for those who weren't given faith their repentance is futile, ineffective, and they're going to perish anyway even though God doesn't want them to perish; however, He selects who perishes and who is saved by the gift of faith."

Does what I said above make absolutely any sense whatsoever to any sane or rational person?

Only one who has actually read the bible.

When God chose Israel what happened to Caanan and Egypt?

When God chose Noah and his family what happened to the rest of the world?


God requires 100% Holy Perfection. Only those who He Draws come to Christ and receive His Gifts/Reward.


Why are some people Christian while others completely reject Christianity? The same proof and evidence is before both.

1 Corinthians 1:24-31
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Grandpa]

Well, that would be YOU. You don't like to be bothered by the facts of Greek grammar, so you default to your own feelings.


Says the guy who dismisses the facts of Greek grammar in favor of his own feelings.


You really have a knack for being very nasty. I don't find that "quality" listed in the fruit of the Spirit.

I know exactly what my sentences say and mean. You are the one demonstrating either a total inability to comprehend, or simply rejection of facts.

Greek grammar is ABSOLUTELY irrelevant in Ephesians 2:8-9

You have the description of what is being discussed IN THOSE VERSES.

Salvation, Grace, Faith, NOT OF YOURSELVES.

NOT OF WORKS.


If Faith WASN'T a gift then NO ONE WOULD HAVE ANY.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Someone who is SAVED can't produce Fruit of the Spirit on his own. Obviously someone who is NOT SAVED can't either.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Very simple, case closed. Sorry, you lose. Good luck next time.



Otherwise, you will have to prove, with scripture, that the Lord MIS-SPOKE in John 15:5 and people CAN IN FACT produce whatever fruit they desire with no help from the Lord at all.


Nope. I'm gonna have to go with the Lord and scripture on this one and not the IMAGINATIONS and WISHES of some undiscerning person on the internet that has shown themselves incapable of understanding scripture. Greek grammar...

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

Again, I can not agree
My faith is either in God and all he says

or in self. in rejection to God

God does not make my decision for me.. He does not make it so I can not deny him, and he will nit make it so I would never recieve him

That's against his character

It doesnt matter if you dont agree, its the truth anyway. Either God gives us to believe in Christ Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Thats word given is the greek word charizomai :

to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify

1. to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent
2. to grant forgiveness, to pardon
3. to give graciously, give freely, bestow

Its also the middle voice the word charis :

The word for grace grace (130x),

So again, believing in Christ is either a work of grace, God in action, or its your own action from the flesh which makes it your work. Take your pick

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

you have romans 9 all messed up

In context. God loved jacob (Israel) but hated esau (edom) (in the hebrew, (in hebrew, the term hates literally means love less see in the NT where Jesus says we must hate our father and mother. He did nto literally say we must hate them, we we are to love and honor them..he means love our parents less than God)

God did not hate the child and determine he was going to hell. For all we know. he personally will be in heaven. there is nothign that states otherwise

So wonder if you tell a person like easu whom God hates, or a worker of iniquity who God hates Ps 5:5 that God loves them, you have spoken a lie friend.

BTW those who God hates are vessels of wrath whom God Himself fits them for final wrath and destruction

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

Your right,

I can not rescue myself

thats why I must let God rescue me..

I can reject his offer. Many have and many will

But many will recieve his offering of rescue

I know I am right because the scripture is right, man is dead to God, the only hope to be saved is for God to make them alive. Man doesnt cooperate in creation work. Thats solely Gods work. Man cant and doesnt have a say so if God will make them alive. Go to Genesis 1-2 did the things created have a choice to be created or not ?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

WB: In talking about someone who makes a false claim you've moved the goalposts because I've been talking about an unbeliever being made spiritually alive i.e. regenerated i.e. born again in an instant when God's gift of faith 'opens the (former) unbelievers mind and heart to the reality of Jesus Christ at which time he is also saved by his gifted faith.
Romans 1 says there is no excuse. because we know God.

God convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgement, so again there is no excuse

God told abraham he was going to do something, Abraham merely believed and was saved based ont hat faith

Same with Noah.

God did not make them alive by supernaturally giving them faith by making them alive. He showed himself to them. and they saw how trustworthy he was. He did that with me, He does that with all his children.

The gift of faith is the cross. because apart from the cross. Faith would be useless.

again I keep going back to the person drowning in the rough seas with no hope. God came to save them. the person sees him rescue other people. And they turn and learn to trust in him, to repent. to stop trying to save themselves or fail to see their need for salvation. At that time, they stop working, enter rest. tell Jesus yes, Please save me, cry out fo Gods mercy. And God saves them through justification

At that time in that moment, they are made alive or born again.

remember in John 3, Belief (faith) came first. then came life (eternal)

WB: With respect, I would like to suggest that you re-read your post slowly and take notes of what you;ve written because you are not making a consistent and clear argument.

I’m not going to go over each and every point but will suggest that this exercise will help you to better express yourself free of ‘fuzziness’ and with clarity.

I’ll make just one further point for you to consider in the context of faith and your comments about it in relation of Abraham and Noah (and others).

Please read Hebrews chapter 11 and with focus on verses 6, 7, 8

Thank you.

is there a reason you post the way you do? Why are you repeating what I said outside of the box? that makes it confusing in itself.

In your origional post. if you were coming from a calvinist point of view. that regeneration must take place first. then my origional comment to you stands, and I am sorry if you did not understand that comment.

if you were not coming from a calvinist perspective, (that one m,ust be regenerated BEFORE they believe) then I wish you would have let me know. and we could have resolved the discussion. and that is why there may be confusion on your part.