Is faith WITHOUT works dead to GOD or Is faith WITHOUT works dead to man?

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Is faith Without works dead to GOD or man?

  • FAITH without works Is dead to GOD.

  • FAITH without works Is NOT dead to GOD.

  • Faith without works Is dead to GOD AND man.

  • Faith without works Is dead to man only.

  • Other,I will explain.


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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#21
Sounds like another case of hyper dispensationalism and faith "of" Jesus Christ vs. faith "in" Jesus Christ. :cautious:
I'll take the faith of Jesus Christ to justify me any day over my wavering, pathetic faith. One word makes all the difference in doctrine...individual faith and works...Christ's faith and works.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,685
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#22
Sounds like another case of hyper dispensationalism and faith "of" Jesus Christ vs. faith "in" Jesus Christ. :cautious:
And how is that "hyper-dispensationalism"? Rightly dividing the word of truth according to audience is honest study. Why apply doctrine written for the twelve tribes to the body of Christ? This is the same as applying Jeremiah 29:11 to the body of Christ. It does not fit.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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#23
Salvation wasn't lost here.
Agree.

Death means separation of existence.

If James says, "faith without works is dead" he is saying Works are to Faith what the Body is to the Spirit.

The body displays the life of the spirit (breathe).
Work displays faith.
The only way I can display that I am alive is with my body.
The only way that I can display that I have faith is by my works.

If I have no works, does that mean that I have no faith? No it does not!

That would be like saying that if I die physically, I would no longer exist.
The truth is that I have eternal life, so though I may lose my body, I am still very much alive.

If you have faith but no works, you simply cannot demonstrate to another that you have faith.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works (James 2:18)."

To be effective, to be able to demonstrate our faith, and to earn rewards, we must have works.

This is the correct understanding of James, it is not about false professors which is the Lordship Salvation view which is incorrect and superimposed on the text.
He is admonishing his brethren in Christ to put their faith to work.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
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#24
Agree.

Death means separation of existence.

If James says, "faith without works is dead" he is saying Works are to Faith what the Body is to the Spirit.

The body displays the life of the spirit (breathe).
Work displays faith.
The only way I can display that I am alive is with my body.
The only way that I can display that I have faith is by my works.

If I have no works, does that mean that I have no faith? No it does not!

That would be like saying that if I die physically, I would no longer exist.
The truth is that I have eternal life, so though I may lose my body, I am still very much alive.

If you have faith but no works, you simply cannot demonstrate to another that you have faith.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works (James 2:18)."

To be effective, to be able to demonstrate our faith, and to earn rewards, we must have works.

This is the correct understanding of James, it is not about false professors which is the Lordship Salvation view which is incorrect and superimposed on the text.
He is admonishing his brethren in Christ to put their faith to work.
Who are the "twelve tribes scattered abroad"? If you only had the bible to go by, no commentary, no thoughts of man...

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#25
And how is that "hyper-dispensationalism"? Rightly dividing the word of truth according to audience is honest study. Why apply doctrine written for the twelve tribes to the body of Christ? This is the same as applying Jeremiah 29:11 to the body of Christ. It does not fit.
I'm all for rightly dividing the word of truth and agree with certain things taught by dispensationalists, but some people take it too far.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#26
I'll take the faith of Jesus Christ to justify me any day over my wavering, pathetic faith. One word makes all the difference in doctrine...individual faith and works...Christ's faith and works.
Galatians 2:16 - knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith IN Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith IN Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Verse 20 - I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by falthough IN the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#27
I'll take the faith of Jesus Christ to justify me any day over my wavering, pathetic faith. One word makes all the difference in doctrine...individual faith and works...Christ's faith and works.
Receiving the end of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:9) Christ saves us through OUR faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,685
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#28
Galatians 2:16 - knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith IN Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith IN Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Verse 20 - I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by falthough IN the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
The "in" puts all the work on the believer to prove he is justified. Justification comes through the faith of Christ. The believer is justified the moment he believes, no works necessary. I'm relying on the finished work of the cross to justify me, not my works.

Our works will be judged at the JSOC. Rewards are at stake, not justification.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
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#29
Receiving the end of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:9) Christ saves us through OUR faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)
Glad you brought up Romans 3.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I'll add Galatians 3.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
 
May 24, 2023
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#30
Faith without works is dead to both God and man, except perhaps to the most gullible of men, but God is never fooled. It's really very simple, anyone can claim they believe anything, but their works shall prove what they really believe. A good example is the parable of the seeds. Those that claim to have faith but no works are like the seeds that fall among the rocks and the weeds. They might have a little faith at first hearing the glorious truth of God, but at the first sign of pressure or persecution they wither, and their faith is dead. Or they might have at first heard the truth of the glory of God and believed truly and maybe even grown a little in it, but for their love of the world they are choked out by the weeds and their faith consequentially dies.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,685
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#31
Receiving the end of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:9) Christ saves us through OUR faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)
Same audience as James, the nation of Israel scattered during the time of Jacob's trouble.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,685
113
#32
Faith without works is dead to both God and man, except perhaps to the most gullible of men, but God is never fooled. It's really very simple, anyone can claim they believe anything, but their works shall prove what they really believe. A good example is the parable of the seeds. Those that claim to have faith but no works are like the seeds that fall among the rocks and the weeds. They might have a little faith at first hearing the glorious truth of God, but at the first sign of pressure or persecution they wither, and their faith is dead. Or they might have at first heard the truth of the glory of God and believed truly and maybe even grown a little in it, but for their love of the world they are choked out by the weeds and their faith consequentially dies.
God doesn't know whether a man has believed upon his Son? God needs works to justify belief in his Son?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#33
Glad you brought up Romans 3.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I'll add Galatians 3.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
You seem hung up on the KJV translation. Multiple other translations say faith IN Jesus Christ. Your interpretation of "of" does not negate IN.
 
May 24, 2023
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#34
God doesn't know whether a man has believed upon his Son? God needs works to justify belief in his Son?
No, God always knows before they were even born. Consider King Saul. King Saul had faith in God at the first, but King Saul's works continually prove to both God and man that he does not really have faith in God, as Prophet Samuel points out to King Saul after his wicked work of sparing the Amalekites and making sacrifice of the bounty he took instead of utterly destroy like God told him to. Even into the end Saul tries to communicate with God while being in the midst of excommunication, and works wickedly again trying to consult Samuel and God through a witch, to which both God and Samuel both pronounce his ultimate doom.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
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#35
You seem hung up on the KJV translation. Multiple other translations say faith IN Jesus Christ. Your interpretation of "of" does not negate IN.
It is a huge difference in doctrine. Whose faith justifies? Christ or the individual believer? If you say the individual believer, then works become part of the the justification process. If this is true, a man is not justified by believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, but by works. That becomes a messy doctrine emphasizing man's works. No thank you.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,685
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#37
You seem hung up on the KJV translation. Multiple other translations say faith IN Jesus Christ. Your interpretation of "of" does not negate IN.
Just another reason why I trust the KJV to be the word of God. I'm trusting in the Lord's work, not my own to justify me.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,685
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#38
You seem hung up on the KJV translation. Multiple other translations say faith IN Jesus Christ. Your interpretation of "of" does not negate IN.
Philippians 3:
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
 
May 24, 2023
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#39
Again, prove to God? Our works prove to God that we are justified? Nope, no way.
No works don't prove your justification or salvation, that is a whole other subject. Works prove your faith. So again, in the example of King Saul, when he disobeyed God by refusing to utterly destroy the Amalekites, but rather took a spoil of them, this constitutes a wicked work that proves he does not really have faith in God because he did not obey the commandment of God. Saul even attempts another wicked work, that is, he tries to do sacrifice of the spoils that he took to prove he has faith in God, yet God is not fooled by this, nor is Samuel, who says "what then is the bleating of these sheep in my ears?" So Saul's works proved that he has no real faith to both God and Samuel as he will prove over and over from that point forward through his wicked works.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#40
Just another reason why I trust the KJV to be the word of God. I'm trusting in the Lord's work, not my own to justify me.
Who said I was trusting in my own work? KJV only mentality has led to some strange conclusions.