Is faith WITHOUT works dead to GOD or Is faith WITHOUT works dead to man?

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

Is the following doctrine for the body of Christ?

James 5
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Yes of course, and to remain topical, that would be a good work healing the sick thus proving the faith of the elders of the church is genuine in God.

 

[John146]

I think you are conflating the topic of how works prove faith versus how salvation is attained, which is by faith in God alone. Indeed you cannot work your way into the Kingdom, you cannot essentially buy yourself into God's grace. However, because anyone can say they believe, it is their works that will prove their faith as in the example of two people that knew God and claimed to beleive in him; Abraham and how his work in offering up Isaac proved his faith in God to both God and man (Isaac), and King Saul and how his work in refusing to the slaughter the Amalekites, taking the spoil, and trying to offer a sacrifice of it proved to both God and man (Samuel) that his faith was dead.

To whom do I prove my faith? You see, Abraham is being used as a dual type. Before Abraham's circumcision, Paul uses Abraham to prove justification is by believing God's word, no works necessary. James is using Abraham as a type after circumcision to show the Jew during their time of trouble, that they must endure the tribulation through faith and works. The remnant who does so, is ushered into the earthly kingdom of Christ.

 

[John146]

Yes of course, and to remain topical, that would be a good work healing the sick thus proving the faith of the elders of the church is genuine in God.

Notice the wording, "Shall save the sick." Not, maybe or sometimes. Signs and wonders are back in play during the time of Jacob's trouble for the Jew require signs. This is not true today. Many believers die even when prayed over in faith.

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

To whom do I prove my faith? You see, Abraham is being used as a dual type. Before Abraham's circumcision, Paul uses Abraham to prove justification is by believing God's word, no works necessary. James is using Abraham as a type after circumcision to show the Jew during their time of trouble, that they must endure the tribulation through faith and works. The remnant who does so, is ushered into the earthly kingdom of Christ.

Well to both God and man is whom your works will prove your faith to of course. Just as James makes many examples that can be confirmed in their own books. And indeed besides just the examples that James lists out there are many examples throughout the Bible both where one persons faith is proved by their works and examples where by their works their faith is proven to be dead.

 

[John146]

Well to both God and man is whom your works will prove your faith to of course. Just as James makes many examples that can be confirmed in their own books. And indeed besides just the examples that James lists out there are many examples throughout the Bible both where one persons faith is proved by their works and examples where by their works their faith is proven to be dead.

This is the question that James is answering: Can faith save him? What would Paul say? Yes, see Romans 4.

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

If I feed a brother in need, that proves I'm a Christian?

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The question doesn't concern me. The scripture only says faith without works is dead; that's good enough for me.

The question doesn't concern me. The scripture only says faith without works is dead; that's good enough for me.

If you didn’t participate In the poll though,how would anyone know If understand that scripture though?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Romans 4:3
KJV
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

James 2:16-18
KJV

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The Bible is telling us how God sees things and we’re supposed to hear and learn from what he’s saying so we know and come to know his thoughts about things

faith is something he teaches man about if we have a different idea about faith from God we then need tomlewrn from him about it so we can be corrected in our error

a what I’m saying is faith is just faith the New Testament teaches us what it is and what it’s like one of the lessons about faith in the New Testament is what you quoted

The idea is for Jesus disciples to learn what he said about things like faith and agree with him knowing he’s correct and we that disagrees are wrong teacher and students is Jesus and his disciples


The truth is written and we’re meant to learn it faith without works is dead being alone this is just the truth it’s true to God and he told man the truth about it it’s a matter of who will accept it learn of it and believe moving forward letting it do this

“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Bible is teaching us the truth about faith when it says “ don’t just say it actually live as if you believe it act in it “

the problem is some don’t want to hear that they want faith tonjist be something you say and don’t have to do anything the Bible says things like that to change our thinking about that so we start to think in line with Gods word “ yes I agree faith isnt just a word I say , it’s shown by my actions “

 

[BearerOfTheMorningStar]

This is the question that James is answering: Can faith save him? What would Paul say? Yes, see Romans 4.

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

If I feed a brother in need, that proves I'm a Christian?

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Again I think you are conflating two separate topics which is salvation which is by faith alone and how faith is proven which is by works. So in your example if you feed a hungry person this wouldn't prove you are a Christian or that you are saved, but it would prove your faith in the teachings of Christianity is genuine.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

It is written that faith without works is dead, no more question.

Does this mean that the person Is not physically alive,I mean can you a further Interpretation?🫶🏾

 

[Cameron143]

If you didn’t participate In the poll though,how would anyone know If understand that scripture though?

I don't fully understand the question. Faith without works is certainly dead. It a person's faith, which I take to mean it is not actually faith. Which answer covers that?

 

[ResidentAlien]

If you didn’t participate In the poll though,how would anyone know If understand that scripture though?

I understand the scripture fine. It's not difficult unless a person makes it difficult.

 

[Magenta]

That we should walk in them...don't leave out that part. If a believer does not
walk in them, he will be judged at the JSOC and rewards will be taken away.

Taken away, or simply not given? .

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 Just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

 

[JaumeJ]

Does this mean that the person Is not physically alive,I mean can you a further Interpretation?🫶🏾

The direct antecedent of the closing adjective, dead, is faith, so no, not the person, the faith.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Faith without works is dead to both God and man, except perhaps to the most gullible of men, but God is never fooled. It's really very simple, anyone can claim they believe anything, but their works shall prove what they really believe. A good example is the parable of the seeds. Those that claim to have faith but no works are like the seeds that fall among the rocks and the weeds. They might have a little faith at first hearing the glorious truth of God, but at the first sign of pressure or persecution they wither, and their faith is dead. Or they might have at first heard the truth of the glory of God and believed truly and maybe even grown a little in it, but for their love of the world they are choked out by the weeds and their faith consequentially dies.

The thief on the cross did no physical works so then was his faith without doing any works dead to GOD?

 

[Cameron143]

The thief on the cross did no physical works so then was his faith without doing any works dead to GOD?

No. John 6:29...the work of God is to believe.

 

[Magenta]

The thief on the cross did no physical works so then was his faith without doing any works dead to GOD?

He proclaimed the righteousness of Christ. Does that not count? .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Receiving the end of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:9) Christ saves us through OUR faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

How does that square with what paul taught ?

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s not saying your going to be saved because of the cross Paul is telling people who all already believed Jesus died for thier sins and rose up about eternal judgement explaining to them “ Godnis going to judge every man according to their works those who do good will receive everlasting life

“God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: “

And those who do the opposite and won’t repent and continue working evil


“unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; “

its not a one off either it’s exactly what Jesus taught what Peter taught it’s even what the ot prophets taught

Paul specifically addresses doctrine that says “ what you sow isnt what you will reap “ don’t be deceived into thinking that he says

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:

It’s only possible to repent and be saved because Jesus died and rose this doesn’t mean our works no longer count it’s what we’re going to have to answer for and be judged by

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it sounds nice and encouraging to explain what we do had no effect on our salvation but it’s untrue and when people accept the truth it will bring believers to a place of repentance

aid we never accept the truth we’re never going to find any reason to repent

 

[mailmandan]

He proclaimed the righteousness of Christ. Does that not count? .

Yes, he rebuked the other thief, declared their guilt and Jesus' innocence and asked Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom. That is a demonstration of faith.

 

[mailmandan]

How does that square with what paul taught ?

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s not saying your going to be saved because of the cross Paul is telling people who all already believed Jesus died for thier sins and rose up about eternal judgement explaining to them “ Godnis going to judge every man according to their works those who do good will receive everlasting life

“God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: “

And those who do the opposite and won’t repent and continue working evil


“unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; “

its not a one off either it’s exactly what Jesus taught what Peter taught it’s even what the ot prophets taught

Paul specifically addresses doctrine that says “ what you sow isnt what you will reap “ don’t be deceived into thinking that he says

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:

It’s only possible to repent and be saved because Jesus died and rose this doesn’t mean our works no longer count it’s what we’re going to have to answer for and be judged by

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it sounds nice and encouraging to explain what we do had no effect on our salvation but it’s untrue and when people accept the truth it will bring believers to a place of repentance

aid we never accept the truth we’re never going to find any reason to repent

If one reads Romans 2:5-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:22-28; 4:4-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

For believers, their works will be judged to determine rewards and loss of rewards. (1Corinthians 3:11-15)