Is God A Moral Monster?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Not interested in aimless meanderings.
It's pretty disengenuous for you to call it aimless seeing as it's all about seeing Christ in scripture and multiple times I've spelled out the aim - even in replies directly to you - and been carefully intimating the deliberate - not meandering - path to getting there for 3 days now.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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I see Moses as an instrument of God, used by the Almighty in the same way God used Judas. Just my view, and not interested in debating it on here.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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It's pretty disengenuous for you to call it aimless seeing as it's all about seeing Christ in scripture and multiple times I've spelled out the aim - even in replies directly to you - and been carefully intimating the deliberate - not meandering - path to getting there for 3 days now.
You have your views and I have mine.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
here it is in Young's Literal, which is generally word-for-word and free from interpretive changes

And the woman seeth that the tree [is] good for food, and that it [is] pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make [one] wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;
and the eyes of them both are opened, and they know that they [are] naked, and they sew fig-leaves, and make to themselves girdles.
(Genesis 3:6-7 YLT)

  • the text doesn't say both their eyes were opened simultaneously, but that at a time both were open. that her eyes were opened first, and then his also, fits the text.
  • if Adam is with Woman when she is deceived is incongruent with 1 Timothy 2:14, that Adam was not deceived. how does he stand there watching the conversation with the Serpent, not being fooled by any of it, yet say nothing, take no action to stop her or oppose him, and eat? she eats right in front of him while he stands there staring into space, oblivious? not fooled by Satan or by her yet completely incapable of doing anything but accepting whatever she does and whatever she gives him, he puts in his mouth without thinking? all while not deceived?
    • this paints Adam as an idiot. the rest of the text doesn't support Adam being an idiot
    • the text says she gives 'also to her husband with her' -- the narrative that she ate, then at a later time he joined her in having eaten, fits the text equally well - the text is giving an order of events that aren't necessarily all taking place over the span of the 45 seconds it takes to read them.
  • God asks Adam who told him he was naked. God knows exactly what has happened - He knows every detail. the implication of the question is that someone told Adam he was naked - that someone being, as Adam answered Him, Woman. this only makes sense if there is a period of time during which her eyes are opened, and his are not. this scenario only takes place if she, with the Serpent, eats, and after some unspecified time, meets with Adam - her eyes opened - speaks to him while his eyes are not opened, and then he, with her, eats also.
    • the alternative is that God begins court proceedings with a nonsensical question.
I don't think Adam was an idiot at all!
What I "believe" took place, was that Adam "gazing upon the spectacle", upon hearing and seeing all the (ahem) "pleasures" going on? Threw "caution to the wind", so to speak, and "joined" in the "man'age a trois."
To which gives credence to Jesus' words to the scribes and paharasees, concerning their father being the "devil." (sons of cain)

To which even more creditably is given, when Lord God told the serpent that He would put "enmity" between his seed and the woman's seed, in verse 15.

And even more credence to Cain and Abel being "twins", in the chapter 4 verses 1&2. Cuz, in the very next verse 3 begins, "in the process of time", to which there was no such "time passages" in Eve's child baring? One can concur that "fertilization" occurred during that same event(?).

Then, one can also concur, that there was no "time passing" when "both" their eyes were opened.

All that being said? This same "enmity" between the "serpent's seed", and the woman's seed, had no effect concerning Adam's seed. From which eventually, Christ would come from.

Of course, I can't make, nor force you, or anyone else to believe this.

It may not be the very first question I'll be asking Jesus when He returns.

But, it'll prolly be amongst the top 5! :p

Actually? No, it won't! There'll not be anyone asking anybody much of anything.

Except, perhaps "Stop?!"

As "The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord", is very "great" in Love.

And "Just As Terrible", in what such love "reveals!"

Which was what transpired, when God held "Court", with the 3 offenders!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Adam "gazing upon the spectacle", upon hearing and seeing all the (ahem) "pleasures" going on? Threw "caution to the wind", so to speak, and "joined" in the "man'age a trois."
You think Genesis 3 is about a sexual orgy??

you certainly don't get this from the text of scripture.
 
Sep 29, 2019
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A Biblical definition of moral would be the will of God. The opposite is immoral which is sin.

A atheist definition of moral is a agreed set of virtues by the majority's will. It is is a Civilizations agreed set of standards to live in peace as a Civilization.

Obviously God's morality is the only true definition or else there is no true definition of morality other than agreed upon virtues.

So to be moral is to be good to be immoral is bad. Thus a moral monster can only be moral if the monster is good. But we commonly attribute monster to something evil.

Moral monster is just a poor objection by the atheist to hate our God and to hate us for following such a God.

To call God a moral monster is for one to first admit God exists, and two that a objective standard of morality exists otherwise it was just the majority's will over the tribes of the promise land.

If they stuck with their worldview this objection would omit God and object that our faith comes from a ancient nations beliefs but then they must also be able justify to say their actions are evil when in the atheist worldview morality doesn't exist, only opinions and survival.

God is revealed through natural revelation, supernatural revelation, and Biblical revelation.
Ok. So what is moral is what God wills. So in order to know what is moral we need to know what that will is. And since God doesn't generally speak to us directly to tell us his will, then we are forced to read the accounts of those who do claim to know, i.e the bible writers. They know in a way that we do not.

His will is always good, even if it appears to us as bad? And his will can change....for example, stoning a man picking up sticks on the sabbath would not be his will in the time of Jesus?
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
You think Genesis 3 is about a sexual orgy??

you certainly don't get this from the text of scripture.
In the "overview?" No.
The "overview", is the serpent's attempting to "undercut" God's will.
The "orgy" as you put it? Is "how" it went about in attempting to accomplish "its" will, against God's will.
That is, should you believe that this current earth/heaven age was created by and for Messiah Jesus.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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then why didn't God ever say so?
instead - when God pronounced the curse of Satan and the promise of the Seed, Adam, hearing, understanding and believing this, changes the name of Woman to 'Living' -- then and only then, God says BEHOLD!!! the man has become like one of Him.


God doesn't say this about Woman. Satan entices her with it, but God doesn't say it of her, nor of both of them, but of Adam -- and doesn't say it when they ate of the fruit, but says it when Adam changes her name.

is it different if you eat having been deceived than if you eat not being deceived?
yes - for sin entered the world through one man even though Woman ate first.
God curses the ground for Adam's sake.
God curses the Serpent because of what the Serpent had done.
there is no curse on Woman nor for the sake of Woman.


whatever the right understanding of this is, it has to accommodate and explain these facts.
"then why didn't God ever say so?" He did.
22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever— 23 therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. The Book of Genesis chapter 3
 

Whispered

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God doesn't say this about the tree....
The Book of Genesis chapter 3:22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever— 23 therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
 

Whispered

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When I said that the lie at Meribah is the same lie in the garden, Whispered said that isn't in Genesis. I'm showing her that it is. That takes time and effort, because Genesis 2-4 is extraordinarily deep and complex. That's all. This is still about the lie that God is a murderer who doesn't actually give mankind life - which is completely on topic - but it will still take some time to get to where the link is established, especially as most people have vey shallow and foolish interpretations of Genesis deeply ingrained in their thinking.

So, no, not really derail. the fall and the judgements and curses involved have to be rightly understood to rightly apply them to the topic at hand, is all. Besides, what topic is there in the Bible that doesn't connect to Genesis 2-4 in some way? ;)
You should post my remarks that you think to paraphrase, so as to appear to be accurate in your claim.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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"then why didn't God ever say so?" He did.
22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever— 23 therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. The Book of Genesis chapter 3
This is said in re: the man, singular, not of the woman. It is also not said when they eat, not said when they confess they have eaten, but said of the man only and only said of the man when he changes Woman's name to Eve

The details of the narrative indicates that Satan was lying when he told Woman that eating the tree of death will make her like God.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The Book of Genesis chapter 3:22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever— 23 therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
This is not God saying that eating of the tree of death makes one like God.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You should post my remarks that you think to paraphrase, so as to appear to be accurate in your claim.
I did. Go back however many pages when I began to justify my statement by walking through Genesis 2-4.

I have posed dozens of questions to you - so that I will know whether you are following what is being said and that you are clearly understanding what you read. You haven't answered any. You posted a few verses that clearly do not say anything to corroborate your version of events - but 100% support what I have said. But did you mean to post them as if they support your wrong statements? do you understand what you read?

Please take a shot at forming some answers, so I know whether to start all over again or if you are able to keep up. At this point from your response I am not sure you comprehend what the verses you post actually say. For example does God say eating the tree that causes death makes a person like God? Or was it only Satan that said this? This is a very easy and simple question.

Can you answer?

Thanks.
 

Whispered

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This is said in re: the man, singular, not of the woman. It is also not said when they eat, not said when they confess they have eaten, but said of the man only and only said of the man when he changes Woman's name to Eve.

The details of the narrative indicates that Satan was lying when he told Woman that eating the tree of death will make her like God.
Wow, you really twist scripture around.
But you're wrong. And you ignore that even God said that. The Serpent didn't lie.
 

Whispered

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I did. Go back however many pages when I began to justify my statement by walking through Genesis 2-4.

I have posed dozens of questions to you - so that I will know whether you are following what is being said and that you are clearly understanding what you read. You haven't answered any. You posted a few verses that clearly do not say anything to corroborate your version of events - but 100% support what I have said. But did you mean to post them as if they support your wrong statements? do you understand what you read?

Please take a shot at forming some answers, so I know whether to start all over again or if you are able to keep up. At this point from your response I am not sure you comprehend what the verses you post actually say. For example does God say eating the tree that causes death makes a person like God? Or was it only Satan that said this? This is a very easy and simple question.

Can you answer?

Thanks.
No, I'm not going back to find what you claim you quoted that you now refer to again and again.
And please don't claim I didn't answer your questions. I have. That you don't like the answers is not on me. Just because you don't like the answers doesn't mean they are wrong. They're not.
 

Whispered

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This is not God saying that eating of the tree of death makes one like God.
Ignore the scripture if you wish. It is still there.
And you claim I make wrong statements. You make scripture to say and not say what you want to believe. And then argue from that errant perspective.
That's Eiegesis, not proper Exigesis.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Wow, you really twist scripture around.
But you're wrong. And you ignore that even God said that. The Serpent didn't lie.
Please quote exactly the scripture that says the woman has become like one of us?
Please quote exactly the scripture where God says that if they eat of the tree they will become like Him?

You are clearly and obviously wrong, dear.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Ignore the scripture if you wish. It is still there.
And you claim I make wrong statements. You make scripture to say and not say what you want to believe. And then argue from that errant perspective.
That's Eiegesis, not proper Exigesis.
quote where God says the woman has become like God.
quote where God says eating the tree that surely causes death makes one like God.

So far you have 100% corroborated what i told you, that only Satan says that about the fruit, and God only says of Adam that he has become like one of Us, and God never says that until Adam renames Eve.