Is God A Moral Monster?

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Whispered

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quote where God says the woman has become like God.
quote where God says eating the tree that surely causes death makes one like God.
No. You repeatedly deny what is posted, even what is in scripture.

So far you have 100% corroborated what i told you, that only Satan says that about the fruit, and God only says of Adam that he has become like one of Us, and God never says that until Adam renames Eve.
No, you're mistaken, again.
If Adam already knew how to do good, why was there a tree planted that bore the fruit of knowledge of both good and evil.

It doesn't matter when Ha Adam named the woman Eve. What is the issue that you refuse to acknowledge is what God said after He discovered Eve and Adam had eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
You cannot discuss that chapter and repeatedly ignore that part. But you do.
To continue this line of discussion would be unfruitful. You really aren't about discussing scripture.
 

posthuman

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Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Any mention by God of eating the tree which surely results in death makes you like God?
NOPE

Genesis 3:2-3
And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"

Any mention by Woman that eating from the tree that results in sure death makes one like God?
NOPE

Genesis 3:4
Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.

Does the Serpent lie?
YUP

Genesis 3:5
For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Who says that eating the tree of certain death makes you like God?
SATAN

Genesis 3:20-22
And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—

Who does God say has become like Him?
ADAM
When?
AFTER ADAM RENAMES WOMAN TO EVE
does God say the same thing about Eve?
NOPE
does God say both of them have become like Him?
NOPE
does God say it's because they are the tree of death that Adam is become like the Lord of Life?
NOPE


it's very clear.
 

Magenta

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Adam is the federal head of man. he is in a very real sense 'responsible' for the woman because she was made from him, not from the dust as he was.

he says the woman He gave to him gave it to her and he ate. If you presume that Adam is like us, a fool, unwilling to admit culpability or weakness, then you can read this as though he is shifting blame and throwing her under the bus in a last ditch effort to excuse himself. That he's not admitting his own role as head of the woman and he's calling God evil, ultimately, saying God is responsible for the Woman, not him, so if she sinned and deceived him into sinning too, it's all on you, God.

However
If you see Adam as taking responsibility for his own actions, sticking to his responsibility as federal head, and as wise - understanding fully the consequences of what she did and what he did, as trusting God, as readily confessing his sin, then what he answered Gid with is not denying or trying to avoid guilt, but admitting it and explaining why he did it.
he says, you gave her to me God. he is saying that she is in his care. he says, she gave me the fruit - God knows that they have eaten, and Adam knows that God knows. he is explaining that he took the fruit because he decided to join her in death, because she is in his care. This then isn't a plea for God to blame her instead of him, but to blame him, because as head of the woman he is responsible, and it is a confession that he did also eat, that he ate willingly, knowing what he was doing, not deceived but making the choice to join her rather than leave her to die alone.
Adam's sin is truly greater than Eves, and the Bible bears this out, saying sin entered the world through one man, even tho Woman sinned first.
Adam had a choice when she came to him - to eat or not to eat. To leave her to die alone or to join her - and he chose to join her. Why? I believe, because he loved her, and I believe, because she asked him "help me!" I believe Adam essentially is sacrificing himself for her sake, believing that God will show them mercy if they confess. Adam in fact had two choices: to eat or not of the tree that brings death, and also to eat or not from the tree of life afterwards. They do not eat of the tree of life, and God casts them out of the garden and seals up the way so that they cannot - protecting them from doing so. This is God's mercy, and the fact that Adam didn't go eat from it in an attempt to deal with their sin himself shows that he looked to God to solve the situation. Also he didn't run, but answered God when He called.

If Adam ate because he was giving himself for her sake, and declared how the woman had been given to him to keep and watch over, so he also ate when she gave him the fruit, then what Adam is expressing is love for her, sacrificial, responsible love. he is a type of Christ, coming to us in the likeness of sinful flesh, giving Himself for our sake, keeping us from eternal death ((what would be the outcome of eating the tree of life while in a state of sin and death?)) and bringing us before the Father to be reconciled through faith, confession and repentance.
Of course Adam is not without sin - not saying he is. he isn't Christ, but a picture foreshadowing Him.

I hope this is enough to give you a sense - I know it is completely the opposite of what 95% of preaching says. They all say, Adam didn't confess, Adam blamed God, Adam was a moron thinking God would accept that. Yet God did. He cursed the serpent and the ground 'for Adam's sake' and did not curse Adam or Eve. The scripture IMO bears out and supports the view I am giving you, and does not bear out the popular teaching that I'm sure you have heard. But you have to think seriously about what is going on here, and ask yourself questions about why all these things here take place and what makes them all make sense.

I can write more in about 2 hrs have to travel right now. Sorry for any typos am on a phone and I like small phones ;)
Thank you for taking the time to explain your view so thoroughly to me on your small phone, Post :):D I have heard that explanation before, about Adam loving Eve so much being the reason why he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil when commanded by God not to. The lie the serpent told Eve was that she would not surely die... and it is the same lie being told today by the majority of Christendom.
 

Whispered

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Our Father in Heaven is Omniscient. How did the Serpent get into the garden? And how would he have known the ultimatum God gave Adam and Eve concerning the Tree of Knowledge?
 

Whispered

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The Book of Genesis chapter 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of [a]any tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat: 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as [b]God, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was [c]to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.


The Book of Genesis 1 (CJB)
26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth.”
27 So God created humankind in his own image;
in the image of God he created him:
male and female he created them.

The serpent did not lie to Eve. Adam and Eve were already made in the image and likeness of God so they were already like Him.
The eating thereof made them like unto God; knowing Good and Evil. And they also did not die, as we know because when God found they had eaten of the forbidden fruit He said, they had become lie us, knowing good from evil. And they were not immortal either before this. That's why God cast them out of Eden so that they would not eat of the fruit of the tree of life and become immortal.
Also, the serpent did not lie about Eve not dying should she eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree because sin, and death through sin, entered the world through the man. Not the woman.

They were instead separated from God spiritually. Because now they were aware of the material world and the dual nature in the spirit of God; Good and Evil. (Isaiah 45)

The disobedience of Adam let sin enter the world.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" Romans 5:12
 
E

EleventhHour

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They were instead separated from God spiritually. Because now they were aware of the material world and the dual nature in the spirit of God; Good and Evil. (Isaiah 45)
God has a dual nature?
 

Roughsoul1991

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You tell me, I'm old and tired.
I believe the Bible. It is you I am assuming doesn't believe it to be accurate.

Now of course not all actions of God's people was God commanded but the Bible is clear on which are God commanded and which are not.

Jesus taught from the OT and never once said by the way, your scrolls are corrupted.
 

Roughsoul1991

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Ok. So what is moral is what God wills. So in order to know what is moral we need to know what that will is. And since God doesn't generally speak to us directly to tell us his will, then we are forced to read the accounts of those who do claim to know, i.e the bible writers. They know in a way that we do not.

His will is always good, even if it appears to us as bad? And his will can change....for example, stoning a man picking up sticks on the sabbath would not be his will in the time of Jesus?
To be honest it is hard to speak about the Bible when your view doesn't believe the Bible.

If we cannot believe the Bible I sure wouldn't trust my mind without the Bible. Yah sure I may do something morally right within the moral law but our nature is imperfect and sin or immorality will still reign.

It is simple. I believe the Bible is the infallible, inspired, 100% accurate word of God. So I easily know God's will for my life. I do not have to question or wonder what that will is.
 

Whispered

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To be honest it is hard to speak about the Bible when your view doesn't believe the Bible.

If we cannot believe the Bible I sure wouldn't trust my mind without the Bible. Yah sure I may do something morally right within the moral law but our nature is imperfect and sin or immorality will still reign.

It is simple. I believe the Bible is the infallible, inspired, 100% accurate word of God. So I easily know God's will for my life. I do not have to question or wonder what that will is.
But you started a thread asking if God is an immoral monster.

And I don't see Dibby53 stating they don't believe the Bible. I think that accusation needs to stop. People debate scripture in this forum as a matter of course. This does not mean they don't believe the Bible It means they have questions.
The Bible isn't that which we should believe in. That would be idolatry. The Bible is God's guidebook for the people of God. It is not an idol. Having questions about the scriptures does not mean we question God.
 

Sipsey

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The Book of Genesis chapter 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of [a]any tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat: 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as [b]God, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was [c]to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.


The Book of Genesis 1 (CJB)
26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth.”
27 So God created humankind in his own image;
in the image of God he created him:
male and female he created them.

The serpent did not lie to Eve. Adam and Eve were already made in the image and likeness of God so they were already like Him.
The eating thereof made them like unto God; knowing Good and Evil. And they also did not die, as we know because when God found they had eaten of the forbidden fruit He said, they had become lie us, knowing good from evil. And they were not immortal either before this. That's why God cast them out of Eden so that they would not eat of the fruit of the tree of life and become immortal.
Also, the serpent did not lie about Eve not dying should she eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree because sin, and death through sin, entered the world through the man. Not the woman.

They were instead separated from God spiritually. Because now they were aware of the material world and the dual nature in the spirit of God; Good and Evil. (Isaiah 45)

The disobedience of Adam let sin enter the world.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" Romans 5:12
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

The Hebrew for God’s warning says literally that, ”dying ye shall die.” This infers spiritual death followed by physical death.
 

Sipsey

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3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

The Hebrew for God’s warning says literally that, ”dying ye shall die.” This infers spiritual death followed by physical death.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely(4191) die.(4191)

Both “surely” and “die” are the same Hebrew word, 4191mûṯ: A verb meaning to die, to kill, to put to death, to execute. It occurs in the simple stem of the verb in 600 of its 809 occurrences, meaning to be dead or to die.

”dying ye shall die.” - spiritual, then physical
 

posthuman

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Thank you for taking the time to explain your view so thoroughly to me on your small phone, Post :):D I have heard that explanation before, about Adam loving Eve so much being the reason why he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil when commanded by God not to. The lie the serpent told Eve was that she would not surely die... and it is the same lie being told today by the majority of Christendom.
and for him to say, you will not surely die, is to say that God is a liar. specifically, to say that God has lied about the nature of the two trees - that God has lied about death.

He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
(John 8:44)
in Genesis 3, Satan is trying to murder Woman, and there is no truth in him.
((so was anything Woman right about anything she sees about the fruit when she looked, desiring it?))
he says, that which God calls death, is not death. that what God calls death is gain - what is Satan doing? why is he murdering? he's accusing God of lying about death - by implication, that God has created mankind not that they should have life - not to be like Him, who is The Way The Truth and The Life but to be not like Him i.e. foolish, deceived, and dead. Satan tempts her to foolishness, deception and death by lying: accusing God of having made her a fool, deceived her and denying her fullness of life. Satan's lie is calling God a wicked, lying murderer.


same as the lying accusation the Israelites made at Meribah - that God had brought them out of Egypt to kill them, their children, and their animals. every living soul. same as the lie beneath PS's remark, that God gave us temporary existence just so He could kill us. same as the lie that is the this thread topic: that God is an 'immoral monster.' same as the lie that has been intimated, that the fact that God judged man should return to the dust He formed him from makes God a murderer. IMO, same lie here:

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
 

posthuman

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The Hebrew for God’s warning says literally that, ”dying ye shall die.” This infers spiritual death followed by physical death.
or possibly death by dying: the initiation of the process of inevitable decay.
;)
 

Sipsey

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That is an alternative reading of “ye shall die die.” But I think in view of all that comes afterwards that the reading I proposed is a better fit. Here are some verses that seem to support this;

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. (NASB) 1 Corinthians 15:21-22
So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (NASB) 1 Corinthians 15:45​
We are spiritually dead. But Jesus has made it possible for us to be spiritually alive.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, (NASB) Ephesians 2:4-6​
 

Whispered

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Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely(4191) die.(4191)

Both “surely” and “die” are the same Hebrew word, 4191mûṯ: A verb meaning to die, to kill, to put to death, to execute. It occurs in the simple stem of the verb in 600 of its 809 occurrences, meaning to be dead or to die.

”dying ye shall die.” - spiritual, then physical
I think we have to remember it is a matter of context. God spoke to Adam before the woman Eve was made.
The Book of Genesis 2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The Book of Genesis chapter 3
The Serpent was crafty, remember. That's why he approached the woman, not Adam, when he beguiled Eve into eating of the forbidden tree.
That's why he did not lie to her when he said: "ye shall not surely die." And he was right. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
12."Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." The Book of Romans chapter 5

Eve was naive, innocent. The Serpent know this and exploited it to advantage.
 

posthuman

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That is an alternative reading of “ye shall die die.” But I think in view of all that comes afterwards that the reading I proposed is a better fit. Here are some verses that seem to support this;

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. (NASB) 1 Corinthians 15:21-22​
So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (NASB) 1 Corinthians 15:45​
We are spiritually dead. But Jesus has made it possible for us to be spiritually alive.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, (NASB) Ephesians 2:4-6​
there's a first death ((e.g. Hebrews 9:27)) and a second death ((e.g. Revelation 20:14))

how do i know it's right to equate these to physical/spiritual death?
 

posthuman

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he did not lie to her when he said: "ye shall not surely die." And he was right.
there is no truth in him
- Jesus, John 8:44
he did not lie
- Whispered, post #715
dying, you shall die
- omniscient LORD God Almighty in Whom there is no deceit, Genesis 2:17
you will not surely die
- Satan, father of lies, a murderer from the beginning, Genesis 3:4
:rolleyes:
Woman was not formed of the dust as Adam was. she was formed from His side. she is as 'in Adam' as anyone else.
God is right. the Evil One isn't.
 

posthuman

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Sipsey

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there's a first death ((e.g. Hebrews 9:27)) and a second death ((e.g. Revelation 20:14))

how do i know it's right to equate these to physical/spiritual death?
I don’t think the context in Genesis and Revelation are the same. I offer for your consideration another OT angle on defining death;

Proverbs presents an interesting theme on death. This centers in the relationship of life and death to Wisdom. The possession of Wisdom is identified with life in Proverbs 1–9. A person who obtains long life may possess Wisdom, but more importantly in this portion of Proverbs, long life is not the consequence of wisdom. It is what constitutes life. So death is not so much a consequence associated with folly or, as expressed in Proverbs 1–9, of associating with the “strange woman.” Death is an expression of a mode of living apart from life (Prov 8:35–36).

This living in life or living in death is expanded in Proverbs through one of the instructions regarding the “strange woman.” The man is encouraged to be “infatuated” (Heb šgh) with his wife (Prov 5:19–20). On the other hand, he is exhorted not to be “infatuated” (šgh) with the “strange woman.” The section concludes with the line describing the man who does not follow the advice.

He dies yamût for lack of discipline,

and because of his great folly he goes astray (yišgeh).

(Prov 5:23)

The Hebrew word šgh plays on a double meaning in this passage. It expresses in the concluding verse, not any kind of biological cessation of life, but rather a straying or “infatuation” with folly in this life. “Infatuation” or intense relationship with appropriate objects, as evidenced by the distinction between the two women referred to earlier, is to be encouraged. The folly embodied in the “strange woman” and the death connected with her are not shunned because death is understood as a natural part of existence and therefore not to be feared. “Dying” is understood as a negative way of living. It is a mode of living over against the way (derek) of life (Prov 2:19; 5:6; 6:23).
 

PS

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I believe the Bible. It is you I am assuming doesn't believe it to be accurate.

Now of course not all actions of God's people was God commanded but the Bible is clear on which are God commanded and which are not.

Jesus taught from the OT and never once said by the way, your scrolls are corrupted.
Of course, I believe the Bible. The problem is ignorance. For example some among us say the earth is only 10 thousand years old. That is utter poppycock. I have just been reading some posts here and I notice Adam was sent out of the garden to till the soil. Ploughing is relatively modern in human history and quite honestly I am beginning to lose patience with much of the drivel on here including your comment that I do not believe the Bible to be accurate. Let us be clear where the problem lies, it lies not with the Bible but with ignorance.

Your comment regarding Jesus never saying the scrolls are not corrupted is a fine example of your misunderstanding. The scrolls are true, it was peoples understanding that was corrupt and they needed a teacher the same as yours. Now, get a grip will you!