Is it a sin to drink alcohol

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I think it should be apparent that "give' isn't a imperative command
((in re: Proverbs 31:6 "give"))

why should it be apparent that the meaning contradicts the language?
is that how the scripture normally is - it means the opposite of what it says?

((wow maybe i've been reading this all wrong the whole time))

there is zero doubt this word is an imperative form.
i'm really confused by you saying it ought to be obvious that it's not what it obviously is??
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I think it should be apparent that "give' isn't a imperative command, but then again it is written that God shall sent them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie so I will leave you with your folly.
no need for you to make slanderous personal attacks.
why would you do that?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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((in re: is scripture directing the one who reads it and believes it to do evil or to do righteousness, in Proverbs 31:6-7?))

My thoughts are far from that matter.

you think the book of wisdom is teaching neither wickedness nor righteousness? 'far from it' ?? or is it only your thoughts which are 'far from' the scripture? please speak plainly; your comments engender confusion.

it is an imperative command: give strong drink and wine to those who are brokenhearted and ready to perish. it gives a reason why the command is written: so that they may forget their poverty and misery.

what do you think?
is the word of God not good?
is that an hard question?
do you find this too difficult?
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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Ecclesiastes 9:7 - “drink your wine with a merry heart, for God approves what you do.”

Solomon is speaking about enjoying the goodness of life for the sake of its own goodness, in the days of vanity (if there is no God and judgment he says, but he knows there is), in the good things (wife, fresh oil, white clean garments (unstained), and the fruit of the harvest, the grape juice:

Ecclesiastes 9:7 - Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

Proverbs 17:22 - A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.​
(alcohol is actually dehydrating, and causes sorrow, woe, etc. but the fresh juice of the grape is invigorating, life-giving, filled with nutrients, phytochemicals and tastes really good, and is like medicine, for healing)​

Ecclesiastes 9:8 - Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.​
Ecclesiastes 9:9 - Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.​

Fresh Bread, Fresh Oil, Fresh Juice of the Grape (wine), White Clothes, Clean Wife. Notice, "Joy", "Merry", "White", "Joyfully", "Lovest". Words of purity and without inebriation.

You have beer-goggles, as others here. Everywhere you look, you see alcohol. You will yet seek it again, as it is written, and there is a woe upon you and the Great Whore who deals out the corruption and abomination of her fornication in her golden cup:

Proverbs 23:29 - Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Proverbs 23:30 - They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.​
Proverbs 23:31 - Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.​
Proverbs 23:32 - At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.​
Proverbs 23:33 - Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.​
Proverbs 23:34 - Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.​
Proverbs 23:35 - They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.​

If you ask Jesus, He will free you from your condition of spiritual inebriation, anger, indolence, and harshness and error.
And you are wearing blinders... you can see nothing but your own pharisaical beliefs....

Riddle me this..... IF the only fruit of the vine "allowed" for believers to drink was "new" wine, or freshly pressed juice.... since the grape harvest only lasted about 2 or at the most 3 months, and freshly pressed grape juice only lasts about 6 or 7 days before beginning to ferment.... what did the people of that time drink during the remaining 9 months of the year, with all the wedding feasts, and religious events (sabbaths, etc) happening year-round?

Please try to limit your response to a simple statement... not a whole wall of cut and paste drivel. It's a tough request, but please try to keep it brief.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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no need for you to make slanderous personal attacks.
why would you do that?
It is not meant to be a 'slanderous personal attack' but is just what I see you doing.

Man cannot serve two Kings, if the LORD is your King then why are you telling me that I am obligated to 'give' by the imperative command of King Lemuel.

Prov 31:1 "The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him."

So yes, upon principle, trying to turn man's advice into the word of God is the epitome of folly.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Man cannot serve two Kings, if the LORD is your King then why are you telling me that I am obligated to 'give' by the imperative command of King Lemuel.
is it your opinion that Proverbs 31 is written in order to be rejected and ignored?
is that generally your view of why God inspires scripture?


these are facts:
  • Proverbs 31 is scripture. it is righteous instruction for wisdom & knowledge of the Holy.
  • in verse 6, 'give' is in imperative form.
is scripture recommending to the one who reads and believes to do something which is evil or is it encouraging the one who reads and believes to do something that is good?

is this an hard question for you?
why?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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trying to turn man's advice into the word of God is the epitome of folly.
is it your opinion that Proverbs is 'a wicked man's advice' ?

is this your idea of wisdom? reject the book of Proverbs as merely foolish human teaching?
 
Apr 3, 2019
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Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

He drank of the juice that came from the grapes, and because of the conditions of the earth being changed, his location, and even his ignorance on certain things, the process of decay, fermentation set in, and slowly crept up on him, until the juice was no longer pure as it had been, and it now carried a dangerous element.
This guy has gone off the deep end in desperation - have a beer drinking-10.gif and give ya head a shake man.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Florida
As demonstrated, and unrefuted as of present, is that the word "wine" in scripture covers everything from the pure juice of the grape (right in the vine and cluster itself, to the pressfats, to the containers), all the way to alcoholic content, and even sour'ed content. Context always dictates the use.

Again, Noah, "began to be an husbandman".

Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:​

It didn't say Noah built a distillery, or purposefully desired to get 'drunk' (you imagine that).

Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.​

He drank of the juice that came from the grapes, and because of the conditions of the earth being changed, his location, and even his ignorance on certain things, the process of decay, fermentation set in, and slowly crept up on him, until the juice was no longer pure as it had been, and it now carried a dangerous element.
Any ignorance of Noah's part obviously did not extend to his ability to make wine. I don't believe that distillation is part of the wine making process. Your reasoning ability on this topic is ludicrious.
 
Apr 3, 2019
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Any ignorance of Noah's part obviously did not extend to his ability to make wine. I don't believe that distillation is part of the wine making process. Your reasoning ability on this topic is ludicrous.
Totally agree, it appears Noah drank himself to sleep then to awaken out from his wine drinking.

(Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him)
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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...Riddle me this..... IF the only fruit of the vine "allowed" for believers to drink was "new" wine, or freshly pressed juice.... since the grape harvest only lasted about 2 or at the most 3 months, and freshly pressed grape juice only lasts about 6 or 7 days before beginning to ferment.... what did the people of that time drink during the remaining 9 months of the year, with all the wedding feasts, and religious events (sabbaths, etc) happening year-round?

Please try to limit your response to a simple statement... not a whole wall of cut and paste drivel. It's a tough request, but please try to keep it brief.
I had given this text earlier:

Jer_48:11 Moab hath been at ease from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed.​
A definition that may be helpful to you:
'Must' - "​
MUST, noun [Latin mustum; Heb. to ferment.]​
New wine; wine pressed from the grape but not fermented." - http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/must

Preservation by the Jews:
"... "Here was laid up corn in large quantities, and such as would subsist men for a long time; here was also wine and oil in abundance, with all kinds of pulse and dates heaped up together; all which Eleazar found there, when he and his Sicarii got possession of the fortress by treachery. These fruits were also fresh and full ripe, and not inferior to such fruits newly laid in, although they were little short of a hundred years from the laying in (of) these provisions (by Herod), till the place was taken by the Romans; nay, indeed, when the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not corrupted all that while: nor should we be mistaken, if we supposed that the air was here the cause of their enduring so long. ..." - Josephus, Jewish Wars 7, 8, 4, trans. William Whiston, Josephus Complete Works (Grand Rapids, 1974), p. 599.​

Furthermore:

"... If there is plenty of wood, it is better to boil the must and clear off all the scum with the dregs; if this is done a tenth part will be lost, but the rest keeps good forever. ..." - Columella, On Agriculture 12, 20, 8.​

Feel free to read more here - http://healthandfood.yolasite.com/preserving-juice-in-ancient-times.php

Modern "Judaism" -
" ... All liquids produced from fresh or dried grapes, whether alcoholic or non-alcoholic, such as grape juice and wine vinegar, are in the same category as wine in Jewish Law. ..." - https://www.chabad.org/library/arti...h/Mevushal-Kosher-Wine-and-Grape-Products.htm
"... the Talmud indicates that drinking was forbidden to the accompaniment of musical instruments in festive occasions such as weddings (Sotah 48a; also Mishna Sotah 9, 11). ..." - https://bible-christian.org/myths-about-wine-and-alcohol-in-the-bible-part-1/
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
5,338
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I knew it was too much to ask...

"Jer_48:11 Moab hath been at ease from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed."

What could this archaic gibberish possibly have to do with freshly pressed grape juice? A prophecy about the destruction of Moab somehow leads you to think that grape juice will not start to ferment after a week or so?

""... "Here was laid up corn in large quantities, and such as would subsist men for a long time; here was also wine and oil in abundance, with all kinds of pulse and dates heaped up together; all which Eleazar found there, when he and his Sicarii got possession of the fortress by treachery. These fruits were also fresh and full ripe, and not inferior to such fruits newly laid in, although they were little short of a hundred years from the laying in (of) these provisions (by Herod), till the place was taken by the Romans; nay, indeed, when the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not corrupted all that while: nor should we be mistaken, if we supposed that the air was here the cause of their enduring so long. ..." - Josephus, Jewish Wars 7, 8, 4, trans. William Whiston, Josephus Complete Works (Grand Rapids, 1974), p. 599. "

Are you saying the Jews had some kind of magic process that goes against nature, and preserved fresh grape juice for almost 100 years? Or, perhaps the "fruits" that lasted that long were the dates and "pulse"... whatever that is? And that the "wine" lasted that long because it was fermented already?
And, even if that WAS true, that it was commonly practiced in every village in the middle east in the 1st century?

You are truly out where the buses don't run any more with this whole fantasy... I wish you well.

or.... maybe it was aliens that preserved the grape juice for them...... SMH.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
136
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What could this archaic gibberish
Just. 'wow'. You just called scripture, written by Baruch on behalf of Jeremiah the Prophet, 'archaic gibberish' (yes, I know you refer to the KJB English (you know, that English which is spoken by most of the world, from UK, Europe, to China, to Australia, to the united States and Canada, etc).
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
937
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Are you saying the Jews had some kind of magic process
No. If I had meant that I would have said it, or cited an 'authority' for such, but since I clearly did not, I am not saying any such thing. I am saying that the Jews (etc) were smarter than you (and many others) give them credit for, and understood, by the wisdom of God (having been the keepers of the oracles of God), how to do such things. Some of that process is described in the literature and links I provided for you already. "Magick" was forbidden to them, even as it is to us who are Christian.

Most of the Jews were agricultural, and even as the Hebrews had come out of Egypt, knew their preservation methods (like mummification, etc) also. The Jews (Hebrews) were unique to most populaces as they had their presence in many foreign countries, and could also learn of their preservation methods as well. Likewise, when they were conquered or captured by various nations, and had to learn (as Daniel) certain of their wisdom and schooling. This too increased their knowledge base.

Consider also the reign of Solomon, and the wisdom bestowed during that time, and handed down on all matter of things.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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"Jer_48:11 Moab hath been at ease from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed."
emptying vessel-to-vessel, a.k.a. "decanting"