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E
It is the Church mentioned in the Bible. The church that you found in Acts still exists today, although it may be hard to find by the majority of seekers. You will miss it if you have itching ears that need tickling, you will miss it if you are seeking entertainment in God's house, you will miss it if you insist on holding on to just this one sin, you will miss it if you have not sat down and count the cost to be a Christian, you will miss it if you do not want to die to yourself and live to Christ. It still exists, my friend. It may not carry the organizational label of " United Methodist, United Pentecostal, Southern Baptist" but it is present on this Earth and it is beautiful.
Interesting that you spoke to someone from Bethel. Some people did think the apostles were drunk at Pentecost but nobody could deny the genuine nature of the miracle of Pentecost (the apostles speaking in tongues that they couldn't possibly know and everyone hearing it in their own language- this was truly something amazing!). It only makes sense that some people would mock and make light of what they did not understand, even though it was obviously something that could not be pretended.
However, these supposed miracles at Bethel such as "Glory cloud" of God that people just look at and point at and say "Oh hey look that's God's glory right there" and take pictures of on their cell phone or angel feathers being released....well these don't appear to be miracles at all as much as they are mockeries. My man Todd Friel terms Bethel church as "the church of smoke and mirrors". I don't think that term could EVER be applied to the church of Acts even by the wildest of imaginations. Even the Jews who hated Christians knew that their miracles were verifiable. Where is the veracity of Bethel's?
This is heresy, my friend, because first and foremost because their beliefs contradict the word of God. Secondly because they emphasize signs and miracles while they only seem to have the ability to fulfill the signs and miracles that can easily be faked (such as speaking in unknown tongues but not interpreting). If they can heal then why aren't they in children's wards in the hospitals? If they truly want revival then why aren't they taking to the streets and turning the world upside down with the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Why do they immediately go home after the music turns off? They have neither the power nor the boldness that the Holy Spirit gives.
Yes I have attended "open brethren churches" and many other kinds of church but do not go along with the Plymouth Brethren,as I object to their exclusivity and their dispensationalism and also their adherence to Darby. Most religion in the UK is artificial and contrived these days. People simply have no idea what they're talking about. If it makes you feel good, then go to a Pentecostal church. All I can say is, each to their own - but the very worst sort of church has always involved women lording it over men. You ignore the bible at your own peril, not mine.
W
Hmm..I take your point but I also look at the bible for how Jesus treated women. And I wonder if Apollos was made the worse for being taught about baptism by Priscilla and Acquilla? Jesus appointed male disciples yet he appeared to the women first and the women went and told the men who had chickened out. At the women's behest, the men then got some courage.
Lets not forget most churches are run by men and most abuses of authority and other sort of profanities are therefore committed by the men who 'lead' those churches. Women are also far more likely to be victims of abuse within a Christian relationship whether it be physical, sexual or emotional.
And a final thought: if there were more 'men' leading the church (and I'm not talking misogynistic dinosaurs) then there may be less women inclined to step into the breach.
Lets not forget most churches are run by men and most abuses of authority and other sort of profanities are therefore committed by the men who 'lead' those churches. Women are also far more likely to be victims of abuse within a Christian relationship whether it be physical, sexual or emotional.
And a final thought: if there were more 'men' leading the church (and I'm not talking misogynistic dinosaurs) then there may be less women inclined to step into the breach.
2
Question comes down to
Why do you go to church?
IS it for fun?
or a social club?
To draw attention to self?
to eat?
or do you want to praise God and be reverent
and thank him and
to magnify him
and worship him?
irreverence is the basis of the enemy initiated celebration movement in the 1970's
now children that grew up do not understand reverence
first off, reverence says we are kneeling before God
and saying
"Whatever you tell us we will do"
reverence includes silence
Psa 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
serious
Psa 50:15 and thou shalt glorify me.
Psa 50:16 But unto the wicked God saith,
What hast thou to do to declare my statutes,
or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
Psa 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
Psa 50:18 When thou sawest a thief, (alse teacher)
then thou consentedst with him,
and hast been partaker with adulterers.(remarried divorcees)
thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself:
but I will reprove thee,
and set them in order before thine eyes.
Psa 50:22 Now consider this, ye that forget God,
lest I tear you in pieces,
and there be none to deliver.
he is serious
Psa 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me:
and to him that ordereth his conversation aright
will I show the salvation of God.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is,
when the true worshippers shall worship the father
in spirit and in truth:
for the father seeketh such to worship him.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth:
thy word is truth.
Joel 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
Joel 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation,
Psa 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Hab 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.
So the enemy has made most churches do the opposite
Don't go to a church where the enemy runs it.
Why do you go to church?
IS it for fun?
or a social club?
To draw attention to self?
to eat?
or do you want to praise God and be reverent
and thank him and
to magnify him
and worship him?
irreverence is the basis of the enemy initiated celebration movement in the 1970's
now children that grew up do not understand reverence
first off, reverence says we are kneeling before God
and saying
"Whatever you tell us we will do"
reverence includes silence
Psa 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
serious
Psa 50:15 and thou shalt glorify me.
Psa 50:16 But unto the wicked God saith,
What hast thou to do to declare my statutes,
or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
Psa 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
Psa 50:18 When thou sawest a thief, (alse teacher)
then thou consentedst with him,
and hast been partaker with adulterers.(remarried divorcees)
thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself:
but I will reprove thee,
and set them in order before thine eyes.
Psa 50:22 Now consider this, ye that forget God,
lest I tear you in pieces,
and there be none to deliver.
he is serious
Psa 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me:
and to him that ordereth his conversation aright
will I show the salvation of God.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is,
when the true worshippers shall worship the father
in spirit and in truth:
for the father seeketh such to worship him.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth:
thy word is truth.
Joel 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
Joel 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation,
Psa 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Hab 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.
So the enemy has made most churches do the opposite
Don't go to a church where the enemy runs it.
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E
In addition if you begin to ignore this and that Scripture and to say concerning it "Well that was a different time period." You are on a dangerous slippery slope of ignoring all Scripture and classifying it all as out-dated. If for some reason Paul was wrong the many times he classified women as not fulfilling the role of teachers, then perhaps he was wrong about homosexuality too. If he was wrong about homosexuality being a sin, perhaps he was wrong about all the other sins. If there is so sin then it would make no sense for there to be a Christ to save us from it.
Remember that the word of God is not to mold itself to this age but this age is to mold itself to the word of God. Do not compromise with the world, brothers and sisters.
There are so few in American Christendom who are willing to err on the side of caution and way too many who are more than willing to err on the side of liberality. Be very careful of the indulgent, hedonistic, and post-modern culture that surrounds you. It may be corrupting your thinking without you even knowing it. Once again, be very careful.
Remember that the word of God is not to mold itself to this age but this age is to mold itself to the word of God. Do not compromise with the world, brothers and sisters.
There are so few in American Christendom who are willing to err on the side of caution and way too many who are more than willing to err on the side of liberality. Be very careful of the indulgent, hedonistic, and post-modern culture that surrounds you. It may be corrupting your thinking without you even knowing it. Once again, be very careful.
W
Reminds me of the manna falling from the sky, of angels appearing, waters parting, rocks breaking open, dead men raising to life, water turning into wine, walls tumbling down, plagues, sticks turning into snakes, fire falling ……miracles and manifestations which we accept or deny depending on our beliefs.
You make an awful lot of presumptions and judgements on the people who attend Bethel, many of whom are actually visitors from around the world. Is it absolutely verifiable none of the healings at Bethel are unverifiable? In fact, can anyone verify:
They all ‘go home’ after the music turns off?
The do not take to the streets?
They are not turning the world upside down in some way in some part of the world?
They have neither the power nor boldness?
Where do you fall in these categories?
From what I have heard from one who was actually involved, apart from the excesses (every church is full of, you know, those fallible things called homo sapiens), they spent a lot of time involved in missions, healing rooms, evangelism etc etc. Speck, eye, plank are perhaps a few words that we should think about when chucking the stones.
Of course, the only way to find out is to attend and chat to a lot of folk and take a balanced view on both sides. Then again, if we did that in every church there would be one mighty wake up call for those who thought their own churches were the favoured ones!
W
No I don't and no it wouldn't. In my view.
Do we stop singing the Psalms of David just because he had his way with the bath tub babe then did away with her hubby, Uriah, so he could have her all to himself?
This is kind of opposition is going down the line of obsessiveness. We should also remember that jealousy can play a part in opposition, particularly from leaders and ministers. It is well known that most revivals and moves of God have been curtailed from the pulpits of those in opposition, jealous that God could dare to use someone else in a place other than their own.
Do we stop singing the Psalms of David just because he had his way with the bath tub babe then did away with her hubby, Uriah, so he could have her all to himself?
This is kind of opposition is going down the line of obsessiveness. We should also remember that jealousy can play a part in opposition, particularly from leaders and ministers. It is well known that most revivals and moves of God have been curtailed from the pulpits of those in opposition, jealous that God could dare to use someone else in a place other than their own.
What about this scripture brother Eccle?
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
One question brother Eccle
What has the Lord personally told you about Jesus Culture seeing that there are MANY different views on them!!
A couple months ago i just made a simple declaration, Whatever people tell me about Ministers, It does not matter until THE LORD PERSONALLY shows me.!!.
The Internet is full of junk, men who are bitter, full of resentment, doing their best to defame Others. Who have actually made a Career out of doing this!!.
Now am not saying that darkness should not be rebuked make sure you save souls while doing so!! Not leading them even more astray(especially those who are not matured in the LORD).!!.
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1Co 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
What has the Lord personally told you about Jesus Culture seeing that there are MANY different views on them!!
A couple months ago i just made a simple declaration, Whatever people tell me about Ministers, It does not matter until THE LORD PERSONALLY shows me.!!.
The Internet is full of junk, men who are bitter, full of resentment, doing their best to defame Others. Who have actually made a Career out of doing this!!.
Now am not saying that darkness should not be rebuked make sure you save souls while doing so!! Not leading them even more astray(especially those who are not matured in the LORD).!!.
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1Co 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
E
So you are saying even if me and the many other people who are examining this group are right and it is indeed purposely staging false miracles and is either accidentally or intentionally teaching Christianity mixed with pagan/New-Age elements, it is okay because no one is perfect and we shouldn't say a thing because it would be hypocritical?
Isn't that like saying that Nathan the prophet should never have rebuked David for his affair with Bathsheba? Because, come on Nathan, even you are just a human. The whole reason why David continued to walk with the Lord is that he repented. He didn't just shrug his shoulders, say "No one is perfect", and continue in his sin. If he did, we probably wouldn't be reading his Psalms today.
It's not about being obsessive. It is about being discerning. I really dislike when people act like we should all walk around with a blindfold on in an effort to not be judging. There is a BIG difference between discernment and judging. Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul told us to be discerning and to be careful about teachers. Why are you telling us differently Wander? Be careful lest you find yourself contradicting the word of God.
Isn't that like saying that Nathan the prophet should never have rebuked David for his affair with Bathsheba? Because, come on Nathan, even you are just a human. The whole reason why David continued to walk with the Lord is that he repented. He didn't just shrug his shoulders, say "No one is perfect", and continue in his sin. If he did, we probably wouldn't be reading his Psalms today.
It's not about being obsessive. It is about being discerning. I really dislike when people act like we should all walk around with a blindfold on in an effort to not be judging. There is a BIG difference between discernment and judging. Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul told us to be discerning and to be careful about teachers. Why are you telling us differently Wander? Be careful lest you find yourself contradicting the word of God.
E
my_adonai, I think you have the basic idea correct. However, the idea of waiting for God to give you a personal answer on all matters, I'm not entirely for. One of my pastors has a saying that I like: "You should live by principle, not by providence". It means that since you do not wake up and ask the Lord if you should brush your teeth, go to work today, or eat breakfast, (and not do so unless you get a direct answer from Him) then it is established that there are some common things that God has already made His will evident on.
When I can, I refer to Scripture and my brothers and sisters in Christ to see what God's will is. As I have said earlier, I am becoming more and more convinced that this is a bad idea. Not just because there are bitter people on the internet hating on them...I already have got a pretty good idea of how that looks like...many of the people who have called out Jesus Culture seem to be doing it out of great concern and their concerns seem legitimate.
As I have stated before, I am a Charismatic/Pentecostal/Continuationist/whatever you want to call it. I'm not hating on jesus Culture because I think miracles are impossible. I fully believe miracles can and still do happen today. I do, however, have a great distaste for false prophets and false apostles. Jesus Culture associates with both of the afore-mentioned and embraces their theology. It would seem chaotic at least to introduce this element into your church without giving a great warning against it.
When I can, I refer to Scripture and my brothers and sisters in Christ to see what God's will is. As I have said earlier, I am becoming more and more convinced that this is a bad idea. Not just because there are bitter people on the internet hating on them...I already have got a pretty good idea of how that looks like...many of the people who have called out Jesus Culture seem to be doing it out of great concern and their concerns seem legitimate.
As I have stated before, I am a Charismatic/Pentecostal/Continuationist/whatever you want to call it. I'm not hating on jesus Culture because I think miracles are impossible. I fully believe miracles can and still do happen today. I do, however, have a great distaste for false prophets and false apostles. Jesus Culture associates with both of the afore-mentioned and embraces their theology. It would seem chaotic at least to introduce this element into your church without giving a great warning against it.