Is it bad to play Jesus Culture in church?

[Wanderers]

I'm guessing you haven't watched any of the many youtube videos that are out there concerning the group. Nor the ones that were posted to this thread. Get back to me once you have.

]Secondly because they emphasize signs and miracles while they only seem to have the ability to fulfill the signs and miracles that can easily be faked (such as speaking in unknown tongues but not interpreting). If they can heal then why aren't they in children's wards in the hospitals? If they truly want revival then why aren't they taking to the streets and turning the world upside down with the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Why do they immediately go home after the music turns off? They have neither the power nor the boldness that the Holy Spirit gives.

You based all those judgements on.....Youtube!!? What can I say! I have also seen this thread, thanks, hence my replies. So I think that covers the second bit.

I have seen the other youtube clips and have spoken to one who was once involved in ministry there, as I have said numerous times.

 

[Gjolll]

Hmm..I take your point but I also look at the bible for how Jesus treated women. And I wonder if Apollos was made the worse for being taught about baptism by Priscilla and Acquilla? Jesus appointed male disciples yet he appeared to the women first and the women went and told the men who had chickened out. At the women's behest, the men then got some courage.

You're missing two points (a) the rules for the assembly of the saints were different from informal meetings, (b) there is nothing to prevent women from meeting a need outside the assembly. If the assembly cannot find a man to speak, then questions must be asked as to whether it is really an assembly of saints at all.

Lets not forget most churches are run by men and most abuses of authority and other sort of profanities are therefore committed by the men who 'lead' those churches. Women are also far more likely to be victims of abuse within a Christian relationship whether it be physical, sexual or emotional.

And a final thought: if there were more 'men' leading the church (and I'm not talking misogynistic dinosaurs) then there may be less women inclined to step into the breach.

I concur that the fact that a church is led by a man is not a guarantee that it won't be heretical, but perhaps the fact that it is "led" by anyone is the root problem. The Catholic model where only licensed persons can "take services" is based on a model where the congregation are presumed to be theologically illiterate. That was never the New Testament model. The New Testament model treats all brothers as equals. That is the best way to prevent heresy creeping into a congregation, as no one person can exercise a dominant hold over the church. You'll note that when Pauls warns of false shepherds, they are dominant people, who exercise control. The New Testament model church is designed to prevent this.

 

[Wanderers]

Oh, and I've also seen clips such as these: Bethel LIVE "I need You more" Kim Walker (Official Music Video) - YouTube

 

[Ecclesiastik]

You based all those judgements on.....Youtube!!? What can I say! I have also seen this thread, thanks, hence my replies. So I think that covers the second bit.

I have seen the other youtube clips and have spoken to one who was once involved in ministry there, as I have said numerous times.

You asked how I knew about the actual behavior of the people and veracity of the miracles. This is actual footage of what happens at Bethel. Youtube is an open place for people to upload videos. It is just about as silly to say that what is put on Youtube cannot be trusted as it is to say that what is put in books or on overhead projectors cannot be trusted.

So after you have both saw the supposed miracles that have occurred at Bethel and have heard of the false doctrines that they spread (and the sources thereof- paganism/New Age movements), you still think there is nothing wrong?

 

[Wanderers]

You asked how I knew about the actual behavior of the people and veracity of the miracles. This is actual footage of what happens at Bethel. Youtube is an open place for people to upload videos. It is just about as silly to say that what is put on Youtube cannot be trusted as it is to say that what is put in books or on overhead projectors cannot be trusted.

So after you have both saw the supposed miracles that have occurred at Bethel and have heard of the false doctrines that they spread (and the sources thereof- paganism/New Age movements), you still think there is nothing wrong?

If you want to verify for yourself what happens then go pay a visit and speak to folk.

Every church I have attended has been deemed 'unbiblical' in one way or another: speaking in tongues (died out with the apostolic age), healing (ditto to last), guitars and drums for worship (no biblical support. yes, really), women speaking (covering that one on here!), Trinitarian belief, infant baptism, the need for full immersion baptism, falling over under the power of the holy spirit, baptism in the holy spirit, tithing or not, etcetera etcetera.......

But to base all of your aforementioned judgements, on what our brothers and sisters in Christ do or don't do, on Youtube clips is somewhat disingenuous to say the least.

Be aware of the extremes and challenge if necessary but don't rule out that God might actually be working in Bethel. After all, if he can make a donkey speak....

 

[my_adonai_]

Oh well.

Whatever is unbiblical, ungodly, unrighteous and not right standing with GOD will be brushed aside.

Narrow is the gate that leads to life!!

 

[Praus]

You make an awful lot of presumptions and judgements on the people who attend Bethel, many of whom are actually visitors from around the world. Is it absolutely verifiable none of the healings at Bethel are unverifiable? In fact, can anyone verify:
They all ‘go home’ after the music turns off?
The do not take to the streets?
They are not turning the world upside down in some way in some part of the world?
They have neither the power nor boldness?
Where do you fall in these categories?

BETHEL: We just let our friends die rather than calling for medical emergency services:

-> Faith healing or foul play? 2008 cliff fall victim sues Bethel students � Redding Record Searchlight

"Rather than call police when their drinking partner fell — or was pushed — off a nearly 200-foot cliff, two students at a Redding Bible school tried first to reach the severely wounded man and pray him back to life, a lawsuit alleges.

In a lawsuit filed this month in Shasta County Superior Court exactly two years to the day after he was pulled by search-and-rescue crews from the banks of the Sacramento River, Jason Michael Carlsen alleges that when Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry students Sarah Elisabeth Koivumaki and Zachary Gudelunas couldn’t reach him to heal him with their prayers, they spent hours debating whether to call the police."


BETHEL: We just don't care what Jesus Christ told us in Luke 10:37.

Luke 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 

[Wanderers]

BETHEL: We just let our friends die rather than calling for medical emergency services:

-> Faith healing or foul play? 2008 cliff fall victim sues Bethel students � Redding Record Searchlight

"Rather than call police when their drinking partner fell — or was pushed — off a nearly 200-foot cliff, two students at a Redding Bible school tried first to reach the severely wounded man and pray him back to life, a lawsuit alleges.

In a lawsuit filed this month in Shasta County Superior Court exactly two years to the day after he was pulled by search-and-rescue crews from the banks of the Sacramento River, Jason Michael Carlsen alleges that when Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry students Sarah Elisabeth Koivumaki and Zachary Gudelunas couldn’t reach him to heal him with their prayers, they spent hours debating whether to call the police."


BETHEL: We just don't care what Jesus Christ told us in Luke 10:37.

Luke 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Two students' stupidity in 2008? Five years later, Bethel is still to carry the can?

 

[Praus]

Two students' stupidity in 2008? Five years later, Bethel is still to carry the can?

Well, they're still trying to do it five years later, and you're the one who called them stupid, not me...

JESUS CULTURE—OF BETHEL CHURCH—AND PRACTICING RAISING THE DEAD : Apprising Ministries

"Some of the students from the Supernatural School of Ministry read this verse and decided to go down to the morgue and “practice” raising the dead!"

 

[HeIsNowHere]

The Bible says God never changes and is the same always so things He did in the Bible He can do again or why would their not be supernatural intervention in history like there was in scripture? However, chasing after the sensationalized supernatural like so many do including the Corinthian church is wrong. God speaks to us in HIS word. Anything that takes away from that and many do, are tricks of the enemy. A strong Christian needs the Word to guide their life and the Word as the lamp to lead them into the self less servant life of being a people servant and slave that a stronger Christian becomes. The purpose of our lives is Eph 2:10 You are God's Masterpiece created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS which God prepared in advance for you to do. These good works of selfless service is where Jesus Christ leads a true and growing Christian. Becoming more and more focused on others and less and less focused on your self. The church today has people trying to be Christian AMERICAN IDOL stars, Preaching celebrities, all saying look at me, look at what I do. Some says they are not doing this but in fact they have nothing else in their Christian lives going on. My Christian hero is someone who has given up position and place and volunteered to be servants for the gospel. All of these strong Christian heros put the Word and following Jesus Christ first not sensationalism. I speak in tongues but I prefer none of that in church at all because it becomes a look at me thing so often. I volunteer for a group that saves children from sexual slavery. These big mega churches will not even let us come in and tell about the mission. That should tell you a lot about what they truly are.

 

[HeIsNowHere]

Just ask your Church leaders if they will allow someone from DestinyRescue.Org to come and speak about the Christian mission of freeing children from sex slavery. These kids will die in 5-6 years unless they are freed. Unless they are physically taken out of these sex money pits from performing sex 70 times a week forced as children they are going to die and suffer. Who is going to rescue them will you. Ask your big church if they will allow a staff person to come in and explain how the church can help. I bet they will refuse to do it. I have been pinging the big churches and they almost all reject it. Yet I see what they have lined up to build and do for themselves. I my view it is a disgrace.

 

[HeIsNowHere]

The Bible says God never changes and is the same always so things He did in the Bible He can do again or why would their not be supernatural intervention in history like there was in scripture? However, chasing after the sensationalized supernatural like so many do including the Corinthian church is wrong. God speaks to us in HIS word. Anything that takes away from that and many do, are tricks of the enemy. A strong Christian needs the Word to guide their life and the Word as the lamp to lead them into the self less servant life of being a people servant and slave that a stronger Christian becomes. The purpose of our lives is Eph 2:10 You are God's Masterpiece created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS which God prepared in advance for you to do. These good works of selfless service is where Jesus Christ leads a true and growing Christian. Becoming more and more focused on others and less and less focused on your self. The church today has people trying to be Christian AMERICAN IDOL stars, Preaching celebrities, all saying look at me, look at what I do. Some says they are not doing this but in fact they have nothing else in their Christian lives going on. My Christian hero is someone who has given up position and place and volunteered to be servants for the gospel. All of these strong Christian heros put the Word and following Jesus Christ first not sensationalism. I speak in tongues but I prefer none of that in church at all because it becomes a look at me thing so often. I volunteer for a group that saves children from sexual slavery. These big mega churches will not even let us come in and tell about the mission. That should tell you a lot about what they truly are.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

I'm a fan of contemporary Christian music, including contemporary Christian worship music. One thing that I see is that many artists cover other people's songs. By this, I mean, that a particular Christian artist or group writes a song (and often records it), and many other Christian artists (or groups) also perform or record the song. This is especially true with popular Christian worship songs. People get confused about the actual authorship of the song.

Jesus Culture does write some of their own songs, but they also cover many other people's songs. So, what I'm saying is that just because Jesus Culture plays (or records) a song does not necessarily mean that it originated with them.

So...if we talk about not playing Jesus Culture songs at church, are we talking about only the ones that they actually wrote, or are we also talking about ones that they covered? Are we talking about all artists who have ever performed with Jesus Culture or at Bethel Church?

In my opinion, it would be a shame to ban a song just because Jesus Culture has played it, or because the person (or band) has played at the same event as Jesus Culture, or has performed at their church.

In any case, I think that each church, and each Christian must use discernment with all music that they play or listen to. Each song must be examined on a case by case basis. Is it theologically correct? Does it agree with Scripture? Does it cause people to truly worship God? Would using this song cause spiritual harm to the congregation or put people in spiritual danger? What would it mean to support this artist?

If a church uses songs that were actually written by Jesus Culture, then that church would need to pay for the right to use those songs, which would mean it would be supporting Jesus Culture financially. The same is true for Christians who might buy a Jesus Culture CD. We would be supporting them. So, then, we'd need to ask ourselves if we were okay doing that.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

I'm Pentecostal, why would i need deliverance from it?

That article references extreme Pentecostalism, not Pentecostalism in general. There is a difference.

 

[stonesoffire]

We don't really know what is going on in meetings or have a full understanding about how ministries chastise their members for actions.

What I see from Rick Joyner is a vast love for young people, who does not want to quench their fire. I would think that any discipline would be away from the public eye, in private, so those youtube videos are not accurate. We get only a portion of what is going on.

I love to read the writings of Bill Johnson, at Bethel. I would give him the same leeway.

If you want a ministry or are called to one....don't criticise others. It will eventually come rolling back on you.

And Jesus is well able to uncover sin. He has done it before and will do it again. Let Him uncover what needs to be uncovered. After all He is head, and only He has the accuracy of judging hearts. If it is of God, it will succeed. If not..it will fall.

 

[stonesoffire]

I was reading in Luke last night, and the members of Jesus's own synagogue was so angry at His words to them, that they forced Him to a hill and was going to throw Him off. But, they couldn't touch Him.

It's the same for His followers. The crowds get angry.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

If you want to verify for yourself what happens then go pay a visit and speak to folk.

Every church I have attended has been deemed 'unbiblical' in one way or another: speaking in tongues (died out with the apostolic age), healing (ditto to last), guitars and drums for worship (no biblical support. yes, really), women speaking (covering that one on here!), Trinitarian belief, infant baptism, the need for full immersion baptism, falling over under the power of the holy spirit, baptism in the holy spirit, tithing or not, etcetera etcetera.......

But to base all of your aforementioned judgements, on what our brothers and sisters in Christ do or don't do, on Youtube clips is somewhat disingenuous to say the least.

Be aware of the extremes and challenge if necessary but don't rule out that God might actually be working in Bethel. After all, if he can make a donkey speak....

Once again, my friend, to say that Youtube is an unreliable source has about just as much credence as to say books or any other means of communication is unreliable. To also say that I have to physically go to a church myself to understand if it is heretical or not is unfair. If that was the case then Paul would not have been able to condemn any of the churches' behavior that he did not physically see himself. Which would have had made his letter writing an awful lot harder.

The internet is a very reliable tool if one knows how to use it correctly. For this reason I do not need to go to a Benny Hinn Crusade to know if he is false or not. I can see his fruit, hear his defense, and see the evidence against him from the comfort of my own house. For this reason I do not need to read the entire Quran to know Islam is false or go to a mosque. From the comfort of my own house I can go to a reliable website and look up their beliefs, compare them with the Bible, and find them to be wanting.

I feel like you are advocating a view that makes it impossible to discern if someone is righteous or wicked or if doctrine is right or wrong. J.C. Ryle terms this type of theology (or rather non-theology) as Jelly-Fish Christianity- One with neither a bone in its body nor power. A type that thinks it is a mark of cleverness to have no distinct opinion about anything and that has a distinct distaste for biblical doctrine.

I will hear you on this one matter, that God can be working in Bethel. But the same can be said of the Mormon, Jehovah Witness, and Roman Catholic churches. God could be working in people who truly believe there (and have not swallowed the whole lie of their doctrine). Yet, this does not justify their churches or make doctrine to be irrelevant. God even worked in Saul, who was a Pharisee. He, seeing the error of his doctrine, left it in the dust to follow Christ and the rest is history.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

I'm a fan of contemporary Christian music, including contemporary Christian worship music. One thing that I see is that many artists cover other people's songs. By this, I mean, that a particular Christian artist or group writes a song (and often records it), and many other Christian artists (or groups) also perform or record the song. This is especially true with popular Christian worship songs. People get confused about the actual authorship of the song.

Jesus Culture does write some of their own songs, but they also cover many other people's songs. So, what I'm saying is that just because Jesus Culture plays (or records) a song does not necessarily mean that it originated with them.

So...if we talk about not playing Jesus Culture songs at church, are we talking about only the ones that they actually wrote, or are we also talking about ones that they covered? Are we talking about all artists who have ever performed with Jesus Culture or at Bethel Church?

In my opinion, it would be a shame to ban a song just because Jesus Culture has played it, or because the person (or band) has played at the same event as Jesus Culture, or has performed at their church.

In any case, I think that each church, and each Christian must use discernment with all music that they play or listen to. Each song must be examined on a case by case basis. Is it theologically correct? Does it agree with Scripture? Does it cause people to truly worship God? Would using this song cause spiritual harm to the congregation or put people in spiritual danger? What would it mean to support this artist?

If a church uses songs that were actually written by Jesus Culture, then that church would need to pay for the right to use those songs, which would mean it would be supporting Jesus Culture financially. The same is true for Christians who might buy a Jesus Culture CD. We would be supporting them. So, then, we'd need to ask ourselves if we were okay doing that.

You raise some pretty good questions. Perhaps my church has already gone over these without my knowledge. I am still awaiting my pastor's return from the States.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

We don't really know what is going on in meetings or have a full understanding about how ministries chastise their members for actions.

What I see from Rick Joyner is a vast love for young people, who does not want to quench their fire. I would think that any discipline would be away from the public eye, in private, so those youtube videos are not accurate. We get only a portion of what is going on.

I love to read the writings of Bill Johnson, at Bethel. I would give him the same leeway.

If you want a ministry or are called to one....don't criticise others. It will eventually come rolling back on you.

And Jesus is well able to uncover sin. He has done it before and will do it again. Let Him uncover what needs to be uncovered. After all He is head, and only He has the accuracy of judging hearts. If it is of God, it will succeed. If not..it will fall.

I think the youtube videos are accurate because the system works both ways. These leaders have an opportunity to respond to the accusations of heresy. The people who upload these videos are usually not unfair, they would upload their explanation if they had one. Usually they do upload their explanations of their doctrines/miracles/happenings, but usually the explanation is just as negative as the actual event itself. Benny Hinn had a pretty funny one. His..what was it..his manager? His manager kept chiming in and getting mad at the interviewer for asking him questions about his miracles being fake/unverifiable. Guy wasn't even being disrespectful. Just was asking the questions anybody else would have asked.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

You raise some pretty good questions. Perhaps my church has already gone over these without my knowledge. I am still awaiting my pastor's return from the States.

Thank you. One of the other problems that I've seen in Christian worship music is the quality of the lyrics, which is related to my previous post.

I personally like much of Chris Tomlin's music -- however, I'm not sure about some of his recent stuff. For example, my sister and her boyfriend were listening to the radio and happened to hear a song called "God's Great Dance Floor," and they were turned off by it. I looked up the lyrics to it, and there is nothing really worshipful about that song. It isn't really praising God, talking about His attributes, and it has no references to Scripture in it. I think this particular song is "okay" if you're just listening to Christian music on your computer, but I don't think it makes a very good worship song. I wouldn't want to sing it in church as part of worship.

This is a case in which there is nothing "wrong" with the song, but I think it would be wiser not to use it in worship. It gives more of the "let's party with Jesus" kind of feeling. And to me, that doesn't represent what worship is about.