Is it faith not obedience, obedience not faith, or faith and obedience

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Rev says murderers and ALL SINNERS GO TO HELL. (Not just murderers)

Your a sinner. So that means YOU TOO!!

Your stuck on a word man, Get over yourself and stop judging me by something you do not understand
I never say rev 21 only murder go to hell. But murder etc. So every body include me If not repent every time, Will go to hell, or you change the law.

Same mistake, do I judge or say rev 21 as It is?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I never say rev 21 only murder go to hell. But murder etc. So every body include me If not repent every time, Will go to hell, or you change the law.
You do not keep repenting of the same sin dude, Either you agree it is a sin or you do not.

We can not mock God. We either repented or we have.

I can repent and agree envy is a sin, it does nto mean I will stop having envy, and if I do it again, it does not mean I have unrepented and no longer think it is a sin.

If we have to repent after every sin, no one will make it to heaven and no one has eternal life.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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You do not keep repenting of the same sin dude, Either you agree it is a sin or you do not.

We can not mock God. We either repented or we have.

I can repent and agree envy is a sin, it does nto mean I will stop having envy, and if I do it again, it does not mean I have unrepented and no longer think it is a sin.

If we have to repent after every sin, no one will make it to heaven and no one has eternal life.
Do you think I am not agree with the word of God?

Why you say either you agree or not.

I am agree with the word.

Rev 21 say murder, adulterer, liar etc go to hell, and I believe It

Seem to me you not believe rev 21 as what It say.

It say murder, adulterer etc go to hell, and you interprate all the way around

Your interpretation is murder adulterer etc go to heaven.

The interpretation must not opposite what It say.

Let me say one more time, I am not judge, I am say what rev 21 say.

When you say according to John 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Non believer is already condemed.

Is that mean you judge?

No you say what It say in the word, and you believe It

To make look like not judge, yo may say non believer is not condemed. This is change the word, this is not agree with the word

To agree and believe the word, you have to say what is in the word.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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you need to be honest with yourself

You keep saying rev 21 says murderers go to hell, and you agree (I do too by the way) but it is not set in stone, and even you agree

when I bring up murderers who we know are in heaven. you admit they will not go to hell, in other words, you also agree murderers and the like may not go to hell. (and you seem to get mad when I point this out)

You can not have it both ways. either ALL murderers and such WILL go to hell. or there are provisions for them not going to hell. A point I have been trying to make since we began this discussion.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,245
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you need to be honest with yourself

You keep saying rev 21 says murderers go to hell, and you agree (I do too by the way) but it is not set in stone, and even you agree

when I bring up murderers who we know are in heaven. you admit they will not go to hell, in other words, you also agree murderers and the like may not go to hell. (and you seem to get mad when I point this out)

You can not have it both ways. either ALL murderers and such WILL go to hell. or there are provisions for them not going to hell. A point I have been trying to make since we began this discussion.
I do not understand what is your position.

This is my position.

God not ask my agreement when he wrote rev 21. And he do not need my agreement. The issue is not about agree or not, but believe or not. And I believe It.

So I believe in the bible. I believe murder, adulterer and what ever say in rev 21 go to hell.

Like I say, I believe in the bible, another part of the bible say


2 chronicle 7:14
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


If people ask forgiveness and turn from their wicked way,(repent) God Will forgive them

So Yes I believe murder, adulterer etc (in the rev 21) go to hell

And I also believe If murderer, adulterer liar etc ask forgiveness and repent, they are forgiven.

Seem to me you believe, murderer Will go to heaven, even If they are not turn from they wicked way.

You believe, because salvation by grace and I sin after accept Jesus, so rev 21 not apply for us.

This is the different between your believe and what I believe.

I believe both rev 21 and 2 chronicle7:14

You reduce 2 chronicle, Do not need turn from the wicked way, mean for murderer, do not need stop murder.
You not agree 2 chronicle 14 oN part of turn from the wicked way

In other word you ammand or change the word.

I am not mad at you, that is your choice (to change the word is your choice) but I chose to believe the word of God what ever It say.
 

COGmember

New member
Nov 5, 2018
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Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.
BELIEF - FAITH - LAW - OBEDIENCE - JUSTIFICATION - GRACE - REPENTANCE
It all fits together! We cannot discuss one without discussing the others and expect to understand.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”
Many people sincerely believe that all one has to do is “believe on Jesus” to be saved. Jesus says this to those who believe but do not do the things He says:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven...’” (Matthew 7:21–23).
“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)?
“But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
The Importance of Belief
Jesus asked Martha... “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25–26).
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” (John 1:12).

Acts 16:30-31: “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” The reply was simple and direct: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household”
Acts 13:38–39 tells us that, “through this Man [Jesus Christ] is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”​
Belief and Obedience AND Faith are Connected
Many today seek to disconnect belief from obedience, and faith from works BUT the scriptures show the WHOLE picture of HOW they connect.
The law does not justify us. It teaches us the reason we need justification. It teaches us what sin is (1 John 3:4). Once we have sinned by breaking that law, it is through faith in the sacrifice of Christ that justification—forgiveness of past sins—takes place. The law defines sin. Faith in Christ’s sacrifice brings about justification.
This is summarized in Galatians 2:15–18: “We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.”​
Paul also said, “for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified” (by Christ) (Romans 2:13). We are justified to God by Christ having paid the penalty for our past sins, but the Bible teaches that we should become diligent in keeping the commandments and (strive to) sin no more.

(James 2:19) James says “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” . “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?” (v. 20). Then, using the example of Abraham offering up his son Isaac, he says: “Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (v. 22).

And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?” (Hebrews 3:14–18). Then Paul sums up this passage by saying: “So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief” (v. 19). He connects Belief with Obedience​
Hebrews 11 is known as the “faith chapter” because it records example after example of men and women who exercised faith in the face of trials and stress. “Butwithout faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him” (v. 6).​
Some conclude that the Apostle Paul taught against commandment keeping, but as Peter said, many have misunderstood some things Paul wrote: "as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16). Paul never contradicted Jesus by teaching commandment breaking.

Some refer to Acts 15 and claim it does away with the necessity to keep the law of God, but it says no such thing. The subject under discussion in Acts 15 was: if circumcision is necessary; not whether the commandments were "done away." Later Paul, in a letter to uncircumcised Gentile Christians said, "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (1 Corinthians 7:19). Even the Apostle to the Gentiles taught commandment keeping!

If we truly love God, we will begin keeping His commandments, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).
God's Grace
Grace is a “gift from God.”
But, is this grace a permanent state, such that “once saved, always saved”?
An often-misunderstood verse in Scripture. Ephesians 2:8 tells us, “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (KJV). The phrase “are ye saved” uses a present-progressive verb. A “present-progressive” verb describes an ongoing action. Any good Bible concordance will verify that the KJV correctly renders the tense of the original Greek verb. Sadly, many newer translations wrongly translate the phrase as “you have been saved”—which can wrongly imply a permanent condition—leading readers to infer wrongly the “once saved, always saved” doctrine. The most precise translation of Ephesians 2:8, in light of modern English grammar, would be that we “are being” saved through faith.
To sum up, Christians have been saved from our past sins by the blood of Christ (justification); we are now “being saved” through faith (Matthew 24:13), and we “shall be saved by His life” (Romans 5:10).​
Repentance
Many preach and teach - "Just believe, and you will be saved!" BUT God tells us to repent of sin and be baptized - is THAT "salvation by works"?
What is repentance? The Greek word translated "repent" is metanoeo, which means to "think differently." Repent of what? SIN- But what is sin? "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4). The King James Version puts it plainly—"sin is the transgression of the law." When we repent of sin, we are deeply sorry for having transgressed God's law.
On the day of Pentecost in 31ad, in the first inspired sermon of the New Testament Church, the Apostle Peter spoke in Jerusalem to several thousand people, after which they became convicted for their part in killing the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Thousands asked Peter and the other Apostles: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"(Acts 2:37).​
"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 2:38). Peter proclaimed wonderful news—that they could be forgiven of their sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For this to occur, he insisted on two points—that they repent (of braking God's Spiritual Law - The 10 Commandments), and that they be baptized.
A Defense Of God's Spiritual Law
Videos
"Did Paul Do Away With the Law?"
Will You Follow Christ or Paul?

Who Says?
The effects of God's Law "done away with" in society.
BILLIONS WEREN’T EXPECTING THIS AFTER DEATH
What happens to faithful, repentant Christians? What happens to those who lived bad lives during this life?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,245
566
113
Hebrews 10:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[a]

We not obey the OT law about animal sacrifice but we have to obey a new law that God put in our heart