Is it faith not obedience, obedience not faith, or faith and obedience

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Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,631
113
#81
Come on dude? Who are you?

I answered his question, He is DODGING responding to my answers.

If you want to play this game too? I will ignore you..

Do you believe like him? Or do you believe in grace? Which is it man? Can you answer?

will you believe as I do, that grace saves those people and us. And those who do not find grace will go to hell,

Or do you think those people have no hope. And in turn, they, and we will all go to hell?

You can not have it both ways, neither of you can!!

Paul seems to agree with me,, And such were some of you, but you were washed, justified and sanctified.

Why? Because they stopped (the corinthian church was deep in sexual sin that was pauls charge against them) no. But because of GRACE
Rabbit trail and evasion.

Feel free to ignore, I should do the same. Nothing but babble and philosophy here, nothing was adrressed.

Basically its biblical salvation vs your idea of grace (which is mentioned in the book of Jude):

turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness

Thats what that sounds like. And your dodging and tapdancing around it makes it seem even worse. Bye bye.
My first and only ignore here.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,631
113
#82
So you believe murder every day after accept Jesus, go to heaven because the power of grace or hell ?
Most likely he wont come out straight up and answer "YES". that would be too much like Jude 1:4.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#83
You confious me brother.

You do believe keep doing murder after accepting Jesus not go to hell

Than you say not ok to do any sin.

So you believe murder every day after accept Jesus, go to heaven because the power of grace or hell ?
I just believe in the truth.

Killing people has no bearing on ones salvation any more than lieing to people. Or knowing to do right and not doing it. All of those are sins. And all incure the penalty of death. (The wage of SIN is death the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life.)

Your focused on what you think are grave sins, (likemost religious people) while ignoring your own sin. I am more worried abut a persons eternal soul. I can’t control a persons sin life. Thats between him or her and God. I refuse to judge anyone when I am judged myself. Yet you somhow thinks that makes me a bad person?

Of course, now if someone goes around killing people. That does not mean they were ever saved does it? If they are though, who am I to judge. And why you think you can? That amazes me friend
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#84
Rabbit trail and evasion.

Feel free to ignore, I should do the same. Nothing but babble and philosophy here, nothing was adrressed.

Basically its biblical salvation vs your idea of grace (which is mentioned in the book of Jude):

turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness

Thats what that sounds like. And your dodging and tapdancing around it makes it seem even worse. Bye bye.
My first and only ignore here.
Yeah whatever dude, Thanks for proving you have no concept of what it means to discuss ideas or beliefs. I proved he misquoted me quite a few times, yet you call me evading the issues.

Good luck my friend.. I have no respect for people who refuse to see things as they are.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#85
Most likely he wont come out straight up and answer "YES". that would be too much like Jude 1:4.
So you think you can judge also.

Thanks You pharisees think you know God but you do not.

You feel you can cast the first stone feel free.. When you stand on judgment day, and the REAL judge executes judgment, I just pray you have recieved his grace. And stop trying to make it on your own.
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
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#86
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
Both Paul and James taught the same thing concerning faith and obedience.


The whole book of Romans is a masterpiece of inspired literature about this principle or law of faith.


The book of Romans is “bookended” [starts with and ends with] with this principle of faith that operates or functions by obedience, which is why it’s called the “obedience of faith”.




But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Romans 1:5



In chapter 3, Paul reveals it as the law of faith.


  • By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.


Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:27-31



In Chapter 10 Paul teaches how faith comes to us.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17



Did you notice the phrase... But they have not all obeyed the gospel.


Obeying the Gospel is how a person is born again, or saved.


Hebrews teaches us what faith is, and gives examples of those who heard God and obeyed His voice.






James teaches this same principle.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:21-26


Faith comes to us by hearing God speak, move upon, or inspire and or communicate to us.


When God spoke to Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham now had faith.

However, the faith he had was dormant or inactive until he obeyed the word from God that produced faith.

The “work” that Abraham did was to obey God by sacrificing his son on the altar.


Faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dead, dormant or inactive, just like a body without a spirit is dead, and is unable to function to produce the intended divine result.


In this case, the intended divine result was justification.



Example of healing by faith:



And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22


  • For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”


God moved upon this woman, as to what to do, which produced faith.


However it wasn’t until she acted upon her faith, that she was healed.





Sorry, this post is getting long.


I will wait for you to comment, then discuss.



JLB
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#87
I just believe in the truth.

Killing people has no bearing on ones salvation any more than lieing to people. Or knowing to do right and not doing it. All of those are sins. And all incure the penalty of death. (The wage of SIN is death the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life.)

Your focused on what you think are grave sins, (likemost religious people) while ignoring your own sin. I am more worried abut a persons eternal soul. I can’t control a persons sin life. Thats between him or her and God. I refuse to judge anyone when I am judged myself. Yet you somhow thinks that makes me a bad person?

Of course, now if someone goes around killing people. That does not mean they were ever saved does it? If they are though, who am I to judge. And why you think you can? That amazes me friend
I think you misunderstood me friend. I never say lieing less or more than murder.

But I believe bible (rev 21:8 ) is the word of God and I trust It

Because rev 21 say murder (doesn't matter less than lieing or more) not go to heaven, so I believe It. I am not sure If you believe It or not, Seem to me you do not believe It, and you believe grace Cancel that verse.

And you give Example King David to convince me murder go to heaven and stop sining not make you to heaven.

I do not know about keep sining. In stop sining not go to heaven is that mean keep sining go to heaven?

In your previous post, look like you believe, because salvation by grace not by work, so murder every day not cancel your salvation.

And you prove It by question me am I sining after accept Jesus.

The problem is salvation not depend oN me. It depend oN God, I may think that I am save and in the end If the day I am not.

Jesus Himself say, in the last judgement a Lot of people think they are save but is not


Matt 25

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

A man in verse 44 think they go to heaven but Jesus say No.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#88
I think you misunderstood me friend. I never say lieing less or more than murder.

But I believe bible (rev 21:8 ) is the word of God and I trust It

Because rev 21 say murder (doesn't matter less than lieing or more) not go to heaven, so I believe It. I am not sure If you believe It or not, Seem to me you do not believe It, and you believe grace Cancel that verse.

And you give Example King David to convince me murder go to heaven and stop sining not make you to heaven.

I do not know about keep sining. In stop sining not go to heaven is that mean keep sining go to heaven?

In your previous post, look like you believe, because salvation by grace not by work, so murder every day not cancel your salvation.

And you prove It by question me am I sining after accept Jesus.

The problem is salvation not depend oN me. It depend oN God, I may think that I am save and in the end If the day I am not.

Jesus Himself say, in the last judgement a Lot of people think they are save but is not


Matt 25

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

A man in verse 44 think they go to heaven but Jesus say No.
This is a waste of time man

Yes rev 21 says murderer not go to heaven.

King David is a murderer, Saul/paul was a serial murderer.

So either they are not going to heaven,

Or rev 21 is making a point you fail to understand.

I am done with this conversation. Your stuck on a verse. I take the whole word at face value and interpret it to make it agree.

You go ahead being stuck on verses.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#89
EG,
not only did he, David, 'REPENT' and turn from his un-holy actions, he spent the rest of his life
living in humbleness/sorrow in the knowledge of what his actions would require because of
his dis-obedience -
after realizing what his evil deeds did to his future generations,,. = but still, He
was a blessed and chosen vessel of God... (I believe the 'key word here is' 'repentance'...,
and of course, his linage...
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#90
This is a waste of time man

Yes rev 21 says murderer not go to heaven.

King David is a murderer, Saul/paul was a serial murderer.

So either they are not going to heaven,

Or rev 21 is making a point you fail to understand.

I am done with this conversation. Your stuck on a verse. I take the whole word at face value and interpret it to make it agree.

You go ahead being stuck on verses.
That is what I think you believe. You believe murder go to heaven because King David and Paul go to heaven. And salvation by grace.

So you state more Clear what you believe oN that part, though I believe King David not murder anymore, If he keep murder and never repent from murder he Will be a subject to rev 21, go to hell. So do Paul, he was murder Christian, than he repent, not murder Christian anymore, If he keep murder Christian he Will be subject to rev 21.

There are 2 issue

1. You believe salvation by grace, mean after accept Jesus and murder every day, still save

I believe rev 21 is word of God, mean murder must repent and stop murder, or go to hell.
Do I believe salvation by grace? Yes, but It doesn't mean licence to murder

Brother Hevosmies give a verse Jude 1:4

4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

2. You believe rev 21:8 is the word of God, but you do not believe murder go to hell. That is strange. That verse say murder go to hell
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
#91
The it alone thing. The faith of Christ is not alone. His three day labor of love or work of his faith is never alone the father working with Him to bring us the peace of God that surpasses all human understanding .

If either is left alone both are rendered dead. You cannot have one without the other .

Love and marriage. Its the kind of marriage we have with Christ it goes together like a horse and carriage. Can't have one without the other. Old song.
Yes, I agree. We are saved by faith, and not by the works.

But too many people then relegate the works to a different track and separate them completely from faith. Works are not a burden for the Christian that we "have to" do or "should" do! They are a blessing and a benefit and a wonderful part of what salvation (deliverance) really is!

True saving faith then allows us to become the workmanship of God (Eph. 2:10).
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#92
That is what I think you believe. You believe murder go to heaven because King David and Paul go to heaven. And salvation by grace.

So you state more Clear what you believe oN that part, though I believe King David not murder anymore, If he keep murder and never repent from murder he Will be a subject to rev 21, go to hell. So do Paul, he was murder Christian, than he repent, not murder Christian anymore, If he keep murder Christian he Will be subject to rev 21.

There are 2 issue

1. You believe salvation by grace, mean after accept Jesus and murder every day, still save

I believe rev 21 is word of God, mean murder must repent and stop murder, or go to hell.
Do I believe salvation by grace? Yes, but It doesn't mean licence to murder

Brother Hevosmies give a verse Jude 1:4

4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

2. You believe rev 21:8 is the word of God, but you do not believe murder go to hell. That is strange. That verse say murder go to hell
No, Here is the problem.

I think once a person is saved, he is saved, he is changed by God. Yet that person will still sin. (If we say we have no in we decieve ourselves)

All sin has one penalty, Death. (The wags of sin is death)

So to say if a murderer keeps murdering he will go to hell. But a person who keeps commiting a lesser (in your eyes) sin (which we ALL DO) he can still get to heaven. PROVES you think a person MUST stop a particular sin, or they will LOSE their salvation.

Your problem is you do not realise SIN is sin. Murder is a sin, Adultery is a sin, Bearing false witness is a sin. According to Jesus, Hating your brother is a sin, Knowing to do right and not doing it is sin. Failing to put the needs of ALL others above your own needs is sin.

The penalty of sin (ALL OF THESE sins) is DEATH.

So people who do ALL of those sins, are worthy of death. So for ME to say a person who keeps murdering will go to hell. I would have to JUDGE MYSELF. BECAUSE I STILL SIN. And I would have to judge you, because according to your own testimony you also still sin.

And PS. I never said David kept murdering, I said he continued to have an adulterous affair with MANY WOMEN. According to the law David should have been stoned.

Your too focused on a particular sin man, Stop focusing on a particular sin, and worry about your own sins, (pr as scripture says, before you try to remove a spec from your brothers eye, remove the plank from your own eye) Let God worry about the sin of others. He did not send you to judge, He sent you to give the gospel to help people get saved. Telling a person to stop killing Stop having premaritial sex, stop stealing or cheating people. Stop hating on people, these are are not he gospel. SHowing a person he is a sinner in need of grace is, and Grace and forgiveness is to be taught in Jesus name.

Do you even understand what grace is, from the way you are responding, I doubt very seriously you know what it means.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#93
EG,
not only did he, David, 'REPENT' and turn from his un-holy actions, he spent the rest of his life
living in humbleness/sorrow in the knowledge of what his actions would require because of
his dis-obedience -
after realizing what his evil deeds did to his future generations,,. = but still, He
was a blessed and chosen vessel of God... (I believe the 'key word here is' 'repentance'...,
and of course, his linage...
David married the woman who was he had an adulterous affair with, meaning he continued to live in an adulterous relationship. and had other children with her, He also had MANY WIVES.

Yes, David repented. But he also still lived a life which was not perfect. He had to be shown =grace, because apart from Grace, David still deserved hell.

Many people have addictions. They repent, and pray to god and beg forgiveness, Yet still fall back to drugs or alcohol. Because they are powerless. God does not hate these people, or kick them out of his famiy. He shows them MORE grace. And this grace helps them desire all the more to overcome these sin habits. And the HS does not give up on them, even till the end..

Rules do not stop people from sin or help them overcome, The jews and the many many prisons which are overflowing today proves this.

Grace and mercy is what brings healing. Thats why MANY a perosn have come to christ and found victory over many sins.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#94
No, Here is the problem.

I think once a person is saved, he is saved, he is changed by God. Yet that person will still sin. (If we say we have no in we decieve ourselves)

All sin has one penalty, Death. (The wags of sin is death)

So to say if a murderer keeps murdering he will go to hell. But a person who keeps commiting a lesser (in your eyes) sin (which we ALL DO) he can still get to heaven. PROVES you think a person MUST stop a particular sin, or they will LOSE their salvation.

Your problem is you do not realise SIN is sin. Murder is a sin, Adultery is a sin, Bearing false witness is a sin. According to Jesus, Hating your brother is a sin, Knowing to do right and not doing it is sin. Failing to put the needs of ALL others above your own needs is sin.

The penalty of sin (ALL OF THESE sins) is DEATH.

So people who do ALL of those sins, are worthy of death. So for ME to say a person who keeps murdering will go to hell. I would have to JUDGE MYSELF. BECAUSE I STILL SIN. And I would have to judge you, because according to your own testimony you also still sin.

And PS. I never said David kept murdering, I said he continued to have an adulterous affair with MANY WOMEN. According to the law David should have been stoned.

Your too focused on a particular sin man, Stop focusing on a particular sin, and worry about your own sins, (pr as scripture says, before you try to remove a spec from your brothers eye, remove the plank from your own eye) Let God worry about the sin of others. He did not send you to judge, He sent you to give the gospel to help people get saved. Telling a person to stop killing Stop having premaritial sex, stop stealing or cheating people. Stop hating on people, these are are not he gospel. SHowing a person he is a sinner in need of grace is, and Grace and forgiveness is to be taught in Jesus name.

Do you even understand what grace is, from the way you are responding, I doubt very seriously you know what it means.

I think your argument is against rev 21

Rev 21 say murder, lieing, adultery not go to heaven, It doesn't matter If I am commit sin or not, this verse Will use to judge us in the last judgement.

Let me say one more time. I am. not judge anybody. I just say that base oN rev 21 murder lieing, adultery not go to heaven.

And I believe what the bible say.

So every time I commit sin. I Will ask the Lord forgiveness and ask Him to give me the ability to not do It again.

If I murder and not repent, than I believe rev 21 Will apply for me. What in the bible is the truth.

I do not have the right to change the bible whatsoever. And If i change, this verse, and say murder go to heaven do not need stop murder. It Will not happen. Like rev 21 say murder go to hell, that Will happen.

I can't make law what I want. Only God have the right to make law about who go to heaven. Rev 21 is His law.

We not judge anybody here, we dissccuse rev 21. We talk about what God rule not our rule.

You keep say that I think murder more than liar, I never say that. All I say is base oN the bible (rev21) murder, liar, adulterer not go to heaven, regardless If I do that sin or not. This verse not depend me. If I am murder and not repent, than I go to hell. This verse not change because of me.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#95
I think your argument is against rev 21

Rev 21 say murder, lieing, adultery not go to heaven, It doesn't matter If I am commit sin or not, this verse Will use to judge us in the last judgement.

Let me say one more time. I am. not judge anybody. I just say that base oN rev 21 murder lieing, adultery not go to heaven.

And I believe what the bible say.

So every time I commit sin. I Will ask the Lord forgiveness and ask Him to give me the ability to not do It again.

If I murder and not repent, than I believe rev 21 Will apply for me. What in the bible is the truth.

I do not have the right to change the bible whatsoever. And If i change, this verse, and say murder go to heaven do not need stop murder. It Will not happen. Like rev 21 say murder go to hell, that Will happen.

I can't make law what I want. Only God have the right to make law about who go to heaven. Rev 21 is His law.

We not judge anybody here, we dissccuse rev 21. We talk about what God rule not our rule.

You keep say that I think murder more than liar, I never say that. All I say is base oN the bible (rev21) murder, liar, adulterer not go to heaven, regardless If I do that sin or not. This verse not depend me. If I am murder and not repent, than I go to hell. This verse not change because of me.
No. My argument is against your interpretation of Rev 21.

Why is it you never respond to the points I make?

Again, There will nto be any resolution between us. You think because you do not murder, you are free to sin all you want and it does nto matter, but they will go to hell.

Your typical of all people who follow religion. The people who puff their chests, praising God they are not like the murderers.

As I said before. Those people WILL go to hell if they have not repented and been saved by those sin.

The difference between a born again person and a non born again person is christ. Both are sinners, Both deserve hell. One has been shoown grace the other rejected grace.

Again, I question you even comprehend what grace is,
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#96
David married the woman who was he had an adulterous affair with, meaning he continued to live in an adulterous relationship. and had other children with her, He also had MANY WIVES.

Yes, David repented. But he also still lived a life which was not perfect. He had to be shown =grace, because apart from Grace, David still deserved hell.

Many people have addictions. They repent, and pray to god and beg forgiveness, Yet still fall back to drugs or alcohol. Because they are powerless. God does not hate these people, or kick them out of his famiy. He shows them MORE grace. And this grace helps them desire all the more to overcome these sin habits. And the HS does not give up on them, even till the end..

Rules do not stop people from sin or help them overcome, The jews and the many many prisons which are overflowing today proves this.

Grace and mercy is what brings healing. Thats why MANY a perosn have come to christ and found victory over many sins.
OT law is adultery If married to other wife, but people in OT have multiple. Wife.

David murder and have sex with other wife. That murder an adultery, must go to hell according to rev 21.

But If you repent, It Will be different story. There is forgiveness.

How about keep having sex with betseba

If you married with a widow not consider adultery.

Betseba husband death, so after that, David relationship with her is not adultery anymore.

David fall in sin, but he regret he fast crying ask forgiveness. God reduce the punishment, He not kill David, but God say that s word Will not depart from your family

2 Samuel 12:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

Look how angry God was, even David repent and ask forgiveness, God still give him little punishment.

So rev 21 is consistent with 2 Samuel

Bible not contradict each other
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#97
No. My argument is against your interpretation of Rev 21.

Why is it you never respond to the points I make?

Again, There will nto be any resolution between us. You think because you do not murder, you are free to sin all you want and it does nto matter, but they will go to hell.

Your typical of all people who follow religion. The people who puff their chests, praising God they are not like the murderers.

As I said before. Those people WILL go to hell if they have not repented and been saved by those sin.

The difference between a born again person and a non born again person is christ. Both are sinners, Both deserve hell. One has been shoown grace the other rejected grace.

Again, I question you even comprehend what grace is,

You make the same mistake friend, who say because I am not murder mean not commit sin.

Rev 21 say murder go to hell, and you do not believe It, than why you say you not againt rev 21?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#98
You make the same mistake friend, who say because I am not murder mean not commit sin.

Rev 21 say murder go to hell, and you do not believe It, than why you say you not againt rev 21?
Rev says murderers and ALL SINNERS GO TO HELL. (Not just murderers)

Your a sinner. So that means YOU TOO!!

Your stuck on a word man, Get over yourself and stop judging me by something you do not understand
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
#99
is there a way to truly understand how bad the flesh really is, without feeding the flesh?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
is there a way to truly understand how bad the flesh really is, without feeding the flesh?
Yeah, Just look at the life of Christ, see how he loved people unconditionally no matter who they were. And then look at our life. And see how we can not even live up to that standard for a whole day, let alone the rest of our lives.