Is it possible to identify a true Christian from a false one

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You said in your former post ::

I noticed you completely ignored the elephant in the room which is Eph 1:11 because it says that we are predestined according to Gods purpose. I know you Arminians ignore the many verses which expose your beliefs as false, you only quote those few which you can take and adopt to suit your opinion.

The message i was getting from that quote was that you believe i do not know Gods purpose and that i am a false Christian.. and that you do know Gods purpose .. Therefore in my reply i asked you to reveal what you believe Gods pourpse was and i even added my beliefs as to what that puropse is.. What do i get in reply from you now?

I don't believe that God ever revealed everything about His purpose to us in the scriptures.

So you after accusing me of being false because i do not know Gods purpose then proceed to state that you do not know Gods purpose..

So then what was the purpose of quoting that verse and throwing that accusation against me??? If the verse has no relation to the accusation.. Because as you state you believe God never revealed everything about His purpose to us in scriptures..

How about you actually state what it is you believe shows how i am a false Christian. Instead of casting wild allegations without any substantiations to back it up?

 

[Slayer]

You said in your former post ::


The message i was getting from that quote was that you believe i do not know Gods purpose and that i am a false Christian.. and that you do know Gods purpose .. Therefore in my reply i asked you to reveal what you believe Gods pourpse was and i even added my beliefs as to what that puropse is.. What do i get in reply from you now?



So you after accusing me of being false because i do not know Gods purpose then proceed to state that you do not know Gods purpose..

So then what was the purpose of quoting that verse and throwing that accusation against me??? If the verse has no relation to the accusation.. Because as you state you believe God never revealed everything about His purpose to us in scriptures..

How about you actually state what it is you believe shows how i am a false Christian. Instead of casting wild allegations without any substantiations to back it up?

I never said you were a false Christian, I said Arminians have a false view of the Bible's teaching on predestination and election.

I said nobody knows "EVERYTHING" not "anything" about God's purpose, as you falsely accuse me of stating. There's a big difference between the two. I said we can only know what He has revealed in His Word, and He did reveal that He predestines some for salvation and He leaves the rest in the sin.

I can provide you 40 verses which strongly support our view and you guys just come back with a few in response but you don't address those which support our view.

 

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I never said you were a false Christian, I said Arminians have a false view of the Bible's teaching on predestination and election.

I said nobody knows "EVERYTHING" not "anything" about God's purpose, as you falsely accuse me of stating. There's a big difference between the two. I said we can only know what He has revealed in His Word, and He did reveal that He predestines some for salvation and He leaves the rest in the sin.

I can provide you 40 verses which strongly support our view and you guys just come back with a few in response but you don't address those which support our view.

Yes i know you guys use the flood technique trying to swamp people with verses.. But all we need to do is take one of those supposed proof verses and prove that it is not saying what you guys declare it is saying.. Once we show that one of your verses does not support your position we show that you do not have the ability to interpret verses properly .. So if you cannot discern one verse properly then that undermines all the other verses you put forward.. Oh yes the verses are Biblical and true.. But the calvinist interpretation of them is what is faulty..

And i only have to put forward one clear verse that shows the calvinist dogma to be false to totally undermine calvinism..

 

[Slayer]

Yes i know you guys use the flood technique trying to swamp people with verses.. But all we need to do is take one of those supposed proof verses and prove that it is not saying what you guys declare it is saying.. Once we show that one of your verses does not support your position we show that you do not have the ability to interpret verses properly .. So if you cannot discern one verse properly then that undermines all the other verses you put forward.. Oh yes the verses are Biblical and true.. But the calvinist interpretation of them is what is faulty..

And i only have to put forward one clear verse that shows the calvinist dogma to be false to totally undermine calvinism..

I have acknowledged that no Christian has a monopoly on the correct way to interpret all the scriptures.

You and every other Christian's view is evolving and changing all the time, some never reach the point where they settle certain scriptures in their mind. So it's not important to understand all the scriptures correctly as we are all learning and changing our view as we go.

I started out as a devout Roman Catholic, then I moved to the Pentecostal Church, then on to the SDA's, now I'm a Reformed Baptist. I can't see the future so I might change the denomination again and it's the same for all of us.

We are not saved by our denomination, or our particular view of certain scriptures. God doesn't judge the individual by the denomination they might find themselves worshiping Him in. My current pastor told me I don't need to know any scripture to be saved, all I need to do is believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sin and I'm 100% guaranteed to be saved. He mentioned the thief on the cross who was saved in the last moments of his life. He never had a chance to study scripture nor was he baptized.

So all of these self appointed scripture experts here are fooling themselves thinking they have it right, because so do 40,000 other denominations and you can't all be right because you we interpret them differently.

 

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I have acknowledged that no Christian has a monopoly on the correct way to interpret all the scriptures.

But before you bluntly stated that::

I know you Arminians ignore the many verses which expose your beliefs as false,

So to know for sure that someone else's beliefs are false you must know what beliefs are true.. Your position was that calvinisits hold the truth of what scriptures state and Arminians hold false beliefs.. So what is your position That no Christian has a monopoly on the correct way to interpret all the scriptures.. Or that calvinists have the monopoly and thats why they can boildly declare that Arminians hold false beliefs in regard to scriptures... You cannot hold both positions slayer.. But i guess a person can if they are being hipocritical..

You and every other Christian's view is evolving and changing all the time

Speak for yourself.. You do not speak for me or anyone alse who does not hold to your calvinist dogmas..

So it's not important to understand all the scriptures correctly as we are all learning and changing our view as we go.

If a person understands scriptures correctly their views will not change as they go....

I started out as a devout Roman Catholic, then I moved to the Pentecostal Church, then on to the SDA's, now I'm a Reformed Baptist. I can't see the future so I might change the denomination again and it's the same for all of us.

So you have been the type of Christian to adopt what ever doctrines the denomination you currently belong to supports.. But then you move on to the next denomination and declare your former denomination and it's doctrines to be false.. And it is not the same for all of us.. I left the catholic church 30 years ago and have never joined another denomination since.. I trust in the Holy Bible and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, i do not trust in the infalability of denominations..

We are not saved by our denomination, or our particular view of certain scriptures. God doesn't judge the individual by the denomination they might find themselves worshiping Him in. My current pastor told me I don't need to know any scripture to be saved, all I need to do is believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sin and I'm 100% guaranteed to be saved. He mentioned the thief on the cross who was saved in the last moments of his life. He never had a chance to study scripture nor was he baptized.

But yet at the same time you are quite confident about declaring Arminians false believers....

So all of these self appointed scripture experts here are fooling themselves thinking they have it right, because so do 40,000 other denominations and you can't all be right because you we interpret them differently.

Someone will have it right.. it does not matter if there where 39,999 that have it wrong.. Someone will have it right.. The argument that there are 40,000 denominations therefore non can have it right is an argument i have in the past seen put to me by many atheists..

 

[Slayer]

But before you bluntly stated that::



So to know for sure that someone else's beliefs are false you must know what beliefs are true.. Your position was that calvinisits hold the truth of what scriptures state and Arminians hold false beliefs.. So what is your position That no Christian has a monopoly on the correct way to interpret all the scriptures.. Or that calvinists have the monopoly and thats why they can boildly declare that Arminians hold false beliefs in regard to scriptures... You cannot hold both positions slayer.. But i guess a person can if they are being hipocritical..



Speak for yourself.. You do not speak for me or anyone alse who does not hold to your calvinist dogmas..



If a person understands scriptures correctly their views will not change as they go....



So you have been the type of Christian to adopt what ever doctrines the denomination you currently belong to supports.. But then you move on to the next denomination and declare your former denomination and it's doctrines to be false.. And it is not the same for all of us.. I left the catholic church 30 years ago and have never joined another denomination since.. I trust in the Holy Bible and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, i do not trust in the infalability of denominations..



But yet at the same time you are quite confident about declaring Arminians false believers....



Someone will have it right.. it does not matter if there where 39,999 that have it wrong.. Someone will have it right.. The argument that there are 40,000 denominations therefore non can have it right is an argument i have in the past seen put to me by many atheists..

Calvinists take Gods Word literally, we don't apply our interpretation to it as do those who believe in mans choice as opposed to Gods choice. We believe that the Bible says God controls everything, while you don't. You believe man controls things which God clearly said are in His control.

So it sounds like we believe in different Gods, you guys have accused my God of being the author of evil, and of being unfair and all kinds of other false accusations. But none of you have dealt with the scriptures I listed earlier, which demonstrate that God decides who will be saved and who will be left in their sin.

We have had people join our Church after spending 27 years in a Church which teaches mans choice and at the same time we have had other people leave to join the free choice movement so everyone is in transition and susceptible to changing their view. So it's one of those things that divides Christian denominations and nobody can convince each another, it comes down to individual preference.

Most people here have no problem rubbishing the God I believe in and they get angry when I defend Him and describe how I understand the God they believe in.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is not necessary to actually identify each individual as a true brother or sister or false.

Exercise the due prudence all should with all believing all things and thinking in terms of all things beautiful.

Now if the situation is someone who claims to be family in Jesus, Yeshua, who badgers others, insults them or sins against others in any form, the person shuold be treated as a non-believer, a gentile that is.

It is a wonderful position to be in to love all.........even those we may need to shun for a time in favor of keeping th peace. God bless all-who are in Jesus Christ.

 

[theanointedsinner]

no, it's impossible, that's why we should give them the benefit of the doubt

 

[theanointedsinner]

by their fruits you will recognize them
therefore, hatred

because it will be perceived as hatred

 

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Calvinists take Gods Word literally, we don't apply our interpretation to it as do those who believe in mans choice as opposed to Gods choice. We believe that the Bible says God controls everything, while you don't. You believe man controls things which God clearly said are in His control.

So it sounds like we believe in different Gods, you guys have accused my God of being the author of evil, and of being unfair and all kinds of other false accusations. But none of you have dealt with the scriptures I listed earlier, which demonstrate that God decides who will be saved and who will be left in their sin.

We have had people join our Church after spending 27 years in a Church which teaches mans choice and at the same time we have had other people leave to join the free choice movement so everyone is in transition and susceptible to changing their view. So it's one of those things that divides Christian denominations and nobody can convince each another, it comes down to individual preference.

Most people here have no problem rubbishing the God I believe in and they get angry when I defend Him and describe how I understand the God they believe in.

I have had enough of dealing with a slandering false accuser.. End of discussion slayer..

 

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Now if the situation is someone who claims to be family in Jesus, Yeshua, who badgers others, insults them or sins against others in any form, the person shuold be treated as a non-believer, a gentile that is.

It is a wonderful position to be in to love all.........even those we may need to shun for a time in favor of keeping th peace. God bless all-who are in Jesus Christ.

Agreed. I now have slayer on ignore..

 

[UnderGrace]

by their fruits you will recognize them
therefore, hatred

because it will be perceived as hatred

Wow so true, not too often do people feign hatred. I need to remember that!

 

[jameen]

How can we distinguish between a true believer and someone who claims to be Christian but are not truly converted.

None of the Disciples knew that Judas was a Devil, they thought he was a true Christian.

There are some who live as true Christians for most of their lives, only to be exposed as false believers by committing some grievous sin that no true believer would commit.

There are also those who became Christians at an older age after living very sinful lives, they also have a strong testimony but we can't be sure that they are genuine either.

I don't think it's possible to distinguish the true believers from the false, only God knows who they are. So I believe we need to treat everyone as brothers and sisters until they prove otherwise.

The True Christian are these:

John 13:34-35 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

John 8:31 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,

The characteristics of a true Christian are these:

Galatians 5:22-23 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law.

If you don't see all the signs and characteristics in a person who says he is a Christian, then he is not Christian at all.

 

[Mayflowe]

Wheat and tares apparently looked very similar. I believe it was only possible to deal with them when the harvest time came. Jesus says "let them alone". I believe that only He can tell the difference. The difference between a goat and a sheep with problems can be hard to discern . Perhaps we only need to know how God wants us to deal with each person in love, whether we have lots of interaction or not. He will show us the specific ways to do this and how to interact with everyone.

 

[Musicus]

How can we distinguish between a true believer and someone who claims to be Christian but are not truly converted.

None of the Disciples knew that Judas was a Devil, they thought he was a true Christian.

There are some who live as true Christians for most of their lives, only to be exposed as false believers by committing some grievous sin that no true believer would commit.

There are also those who became Christians at an older age after living very sinful lives, they also have a strong testimony but we can't be sure that they are genuine either.

I don't think it's possible to distinguish the true believers from the false, only God knows who they are. So I believe we need to treat everyone as brothers and sisters until they prove otherwise.

I believe it's possible. By their fruits. But we don't always believe what we see (or shouldn't), since a person's works may not always be from a righteous heart (righteous may not be the best word here), which leaves listening to the Holy Spirit, who does know, if we believe what He tells us that is.

 

[Slayer]

I believe it's possible. By their fruits. But we don't always believe what we see (or shouldn't), since a person's works may not always be from a righteous heart (righteous may not be the best word here), which leaves listening to the Holy Spirit, who does know, if we believe what He tells us that is.

I believe it's only possible to conclude that someone is a reprobate, if they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Apart from that, it would be very hard or even impossible. We read about murderers and adulterers being saved in the Bible, so that's a pretty good indication that anyone can be one of Gods elect and we would never know it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul seemed to know who the believers were:

1 Cor 15 -

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By [means of] which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [NOTE: to "believe in vain" means to LEAVE OFF the VITAL aspect of His "resurrection," per the rest of the entire CONTEXT (meaning, a person is not saved at all, in that case)]

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures


[of course, this is altogether a separate matter from judging the (external and outward) behavior of people]

 

[Slayer]

Paul seemed to know who the believers were:

1 Cor 15 -

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By [means of] which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [NOTE: to "believe in vain" means to LEAVE OFF the VITAL aspect of His "resurrection," per the rest of the entire CONTEXT (meaning, a person is not saved at all, in that case)]

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures


[of course, this is altogether a separate matter from judging the (external and outward) behavior of people]

There are many Demon possessed Pastors, with large congregations where everyone believes that Pastor is a true man of God. Sometimes there's no way of telling because these men are very wise and they display all of the outward signs of a true christian.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are many Demon possessed Pastors, with large congregations where everyone believes that Pastor is a true man of God. Sometimes there's no way of telling because these men are very wise and they display all of the outward signs of a true christian.

I agree that measuring a person's BEHAVIOUR is not an accurate way to tell if a person is a Christian, but that is not to say I believe there is NO WAY to tell. Paul could. I believe it's possible for us, to tell, as well. (This passage is one, among them.)